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God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

Je ne sai pas what you're talking about.
au contraire, mon ami confus, vous devez faire confiance à la Bible, chaque mot comme inspiré et errant

A person must believe the bible is fully inspired and without error. Genesis is literal, not stories, myths and fables.
No wonder you get it wrong most all of the time. You must trust in the God given word.
 
That simply is NOT what the verse says, and it won't no matter how many times you try to force it to.
It does not/cannot support your interpretation. It's really astounding you would persist in it - we all can read what it says: " that ye believe". See the "that"?
Look, Jesus was both correcting and teaching within the same verse - I think that's where you're getting confused:
1) He was teaching that contrary to their understanding there was no work of God they could do - none. And,
2) That regarding salvation, God alone accomplishes all work, to include their receiving of true faith.
Agreed on no. 1
We cannot do the work of God.

God graces us with faith.
It's a gift.

I think the difference of how we understand it is that I believe we could resist God's grace.

Matthew 23,37
Jesus wanted to put the Jews under His wing...
But they were UNWILLING.

God wanted to...
But they would not accept the invitation.

What else could it possibly mean?
Grace could be resisted.
 
au contraire, mon ami confus, vous devez faire confiance à la Bible, chaque mot comme inspiré et errant

Of course I believe the bible is inspired.
But I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
Do you?

A person must believe the bible is fully inspired and without error. Genesis is literal, not stories, myths and fables.
No wonder you get it wrong most all of the time. You must trust in the God given word.
Genesis 1 to about 10 is literal?
I'd say it's based on facts but not literal.

But we digress from the 1,500's which IS
History.
 
Agreed on no. 1
We cannot do the work of God.

God graces us with faith.
It's a gift.

I think the difference of how we understand it is that I believe we could resist God's grace.

Matthew 23,37
Jesus wanted to put the Jews under His wing...
But they were UNWILLING.

God wanted to...
But they would not accept the invitation.

What else could it possibly mean?
Grace could be resisted.
[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 
[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Which was given us IN CHRIST before the world began.

God made His plan before the world began.
We would be saved In Christ.

For God's PURPOSE.
It's always HOW and not WHO.

God called us not according to our works, but for a purpose.
To teach, evangelize, preach, etc.
 
Which was given us IN CHRIST before the world began.

God made His plan before the world began.
We would be saved In Christ.

For God's PURPOSE.
It's always HOW and not WHO.

God called us not according to our works, but for a purpose.
To teach, evangelize, preach, etc.
I don't understand what you are saying. The verse says "us" - those to whom grace was GIVEN; it says
"not according to our works" - that it was all done by God -they had nothing whatsoever to do with it; it says it was by "his own purpose" not theirs. Thereby leaving nothing remaining for the individual to do and that everything necessary had already been accomplished for them by God. It all just had to be brought to fruition by Christ.
And all of it was spiritually given to them specifically, along with all of the elect, before the world began.
You're fudging with words again.
 
Agreed on no. 1
We cannot do the work of God.

God graces us with faith.
It's a gift.

I think the difference of how we understand it is that I believe we could resist God's grace.

Matthew 23,37
Jesus wanted to put the Jews under His wing...
But they were UNWILLING.

God wanted to...
But they would not accept the invitation.

What else could it possibly mean?
Grace could be resisted.
Grace can be resisted... The effectual call is never resisted
Of course I believe the bible is inspired.
But I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
Do you?


Genesis 1 to about 10 is literal?
I'd say it's based on facts but not literal.

But we digress from the 1,500's which IS
History.
Of course I believe the bible is inspired.
But I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
Do you?


Genesis 1 to about 10 is literal?
I'd say it's based on facts but not literal.

But we digress from the 1,500's which IS
History.
I believe the earth is 6-7000 yrs old yes.
I believe a literal account of Genesis.
The serpent spoke. A literal flood happened in which God destroyed the world of the ungodly. He never intended to save them.
I believe Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salt.
I believe the donkey spoke in Numbers

I doubt the profession of anyone who denies these things.
The Spirit is given to reveal the truth off all scripture to all believers.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
THE LONDON BAPTIST CONFESSION OF 1689 Chapter 1 Of the Holy Scriptures 1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible a rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light b of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. c Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto d writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. ( a 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Luk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20; b Rom 1:19-21; 2:14-15; Psa 19:1-3; c Heb 1:1; d Pro 22:19-21; Rom 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20)

2 Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these: Of the Old Testament Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi. Of the New Testament Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, & 3 John, Jude, Revelation. All of which are given by the e inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life. ( e 2Ti 3:16) 8 THE LONDON CONFESSION

3 The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of f divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings. ( f Luk 24:27,44; Rom 3:2)

4 The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon g God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God. ( g 2Pe 1:19-21; 2Ti 3:16; 2Th 2:13; 1Jo 5:9)

5 We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our h full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts. ( h Joh 16:13-14; 1Co 2:10-12; 1Jo 2:20,27)


6 The whole counsel of God concerning all things i necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward k illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be l ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. ( i 2Ti 3:15-17; Gal 1:8-9; k Joh 6:45; 1Co 2:9-12; l 1Co 11:13-14; 14:26,40)


7 All things in Scripture are not alike m plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so n clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them. ( m 2Pe 3:16; n Psa 19:7; 119:130)

8 The Old Testament in o Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore p authentic; so as in all controve sies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. q But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read r and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they s come, that the Word of God dwelling t plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope. ( o Rom 3:2; p Isa 8:20; q Act 15:15; r Joh 5:39; s 1Co 14:6,9,11-12,24,28; t Col 3:16)

9 The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the u Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly. ( u 2Pe 1:20-21; Act 15:15-16) 10The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which x Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved. ( x Mat 22:29,31-32; Eph 2:20; Act 28:23)
 
I don't understand what you are saying. The verse says "us" - those to whom grace was GIVEN; it says
"not according to our works" - that it was all done by God -they had nothing whatsoever to do with it; it says it was by "his own purpose" not theirs. Thereby leaving nothing remaining for the individual to do and that everything necessary had already been accomplished for them by God. It all just had to be brought to fruition by Christ.
And all of it was spiritually given to them specifically, along with all of the elect, before the world began.
You're fudging with words again.
It's not fudging with words....
It's seeing God and His plan of salvation through a different paradigm.

YOUR understanding of soteriology is the opposite of mine.

Every verse we read has to be in alignment with what we believe to be true...
So how do we know who is correct?

I look at the bible, both the OT and the NT as one whole, complete idea.

It's God revealing Himself to us. He created us and wants us to be aware of Him even though He lives in a different
"dimension" which we are not privy to.

It all depends on how a person understands God to be.

I understand God to be loving, merciful and just.

If God is not loving, merciful or just, then how do I love such a being?

The ideas of Calvin would cause me to fear Him, not love Him.
I keep posting that paragraph 8 from the 24th chapter of Book 3 but no one responds to it.
It's horrendous.

This cannot be the God that has revealed Himself to us.
It cannot be the being that Jesus srepresents.
Jesus was love, mercy and justice.
What we see in Jesus must be what we see in God Father...
There is only One God and Jesus is His "representation".
God's final revelation.

Read Paul in Romans 9...he'd give his life for his fellow Jews.
Sounds like HE loves his fellow Jews more than God does!
He wrote and wrote about how to become saved and how to stay saved by being obedient to God...

WHY do this if God predetermines who will be saved?

God gives to all the opportunity to become saved...
The problem is that you read the NT as being descriptive of a Christian.
John 3:16 THAT WOSOEVER BELIEVES....to you means those that are already saved.

I read it as Prescriptive....it's the prescription for HOW to become saved.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES...Whoever wants to believe will be saved.

The reason I dislike calvinism is because it changes the nature of God.
How many times have you heard those on my side call God a monster in the way you describe Him?
He indeed would be a monster - It's difficult for me to understand why you don't see this.
 
The reason I dislike calvinism is because it changes the nature of God.
How many times have you heard those on my side call God a monster in the way you describe Him?
He indeed would be a monster - It's difficult for me to understand why you don't see this.
That is truly an amazing statement. A judge functioning as judge doesn't make him a monster it makes Him the judge of violations already committed - why don't you see that?
 
THE LONDON BAPTIST CONFESSION OF 1689 Chapter 1 Of the Holy Scriptures 1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible a rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light b of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. c Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto d writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. ( a 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Luk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20; b Rom 1:19-21; 2:14-15; Psa 19:1-3; c Heb 1:1; d Pro 22:19-21; Rom 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20)

2 Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these: Of the Old Testament Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi. Of the New Testament Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, & 3 John, Jude, Revelation. All of which are given by the e inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life. ( e 2Ti 3:16) 8 THE LONDON CONFESSION

3 The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of f divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings. ( f Luk 24:27,44; Rom 3:2)

4 The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon g God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God. ( g 2Pe 1:19-21; 2Ti 3:16; 2Th 2:13; 1Jo 5:9)

5 We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our h full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts. ( h Joh 16:13-14; 1Co 2:10-12; 1Jo 2:20,27)


6 The whole counsel of God concerning all things i necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward k illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be l ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. ( i 2Ti 3:15-17; Gal 1:8-9; k Joh 6:45; 1Co 2:9-12; l 1Co 11:13-14; 14:26,40)


7 All things in Scripture are not alike m plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so n clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them. ( m 2Pe 3:16; n Psa 19:7; 119:130)

8 The Old Testament in o Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore p authentic; so as in all controve sies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. q But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read r and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they s come, that the Word of God dwelling t plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope. ( o Rom 3:2; p Isa 8:20; q Act 15:15; r Joh 5:39; s 1Co 14:6,9,11-12,24,28; t Col 3:16)

9 The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the u Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly. ( u 2Pe 1:20-21; Act 15:15-16) 10The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which x Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved. ( x Mat 22:29,31-32; Eph 2:20; Act 28:23)
You see Iconoclast....
Your post is interesting.

You post from the LCF.
I only use the bible.

Funny, t'ain't it?
 
That is truly an amazing statement. A judge functioning as judge doesn't make him a monster it makes Him the judge of violations already committed - why don't you see that?
Because Roger...
JUSTICE means to give to each one what he deserves.

So think about that.

How does God give to each one as he deserves if the person is pre-programmed to act in a certain way
AND those that are reprobate have NO CHANCE to save themselves because God will not give them that change.

If we're all born sinners and deserve hell,
and if God was JUST,,,,
He'd send all of us to hell.

But God, in the reformed method, does not judge by violations already committed...
WE DON'T KNOW WHY HE JUDGES the way He does.

It's a mystery in your soteriology.

In mine IT IS NOT a myster.
God tells us in His word HOW to become saved....

so....

If we do not adhere to His method of salvation...
He is JUST to condemn us since we disobeyed Him and did not honor or worship Him.

Why can't YOU understand this?

You bring up a judge.
Would you like to be judged on the crime you committed,
or would your prefer to be judged on the condition that the judge in your courtroom uses,
which we cannot know what it is...but every 4 or 5 persons or so, he just condemns them to the elec. chair for no reason at all.
 
It's not fudging with words....
It's seeing God and His plan of salvation through a different paradigm.

YOUR understanding of soteriology is the opposite of mine.

Every verse we read has to be in alignment with what we believe to be true...
So how do we know who is correct?

I look at the bible, both the OT and the NT as one whole, complete idea.

It's God revealing Himself to us. He created us and wants us to be aware of Him even though He lives in a different
"dimension" which we are not privy to.

It all depends on how a person understands God to be.

I understand God to be loving, merciful and just.

If God is not loving, merciful or just, then how do I love such a being?

The ideas of Calvin would cause me to fear Him, not love Him.
I keep posting that paragraph 8 from the 24th chapter of Book 3 but no one responds to it.
It's horrendous.

This cannot be the God that has revealed Himself to us.
It cannot be the being that Jesus srepresents.
Jesus was love, mercy and justice.
What we see in Jesus must be what we see in God Father...
There is only One God and Jesus is His "representation".
God's final revelation.

Read Paul in Romans 9...he'd give his life for his fellow Jews.
Sounds like HE loves his fellow Jews more than God does!
He wrote and wrote about how to become saved and how to stay saved by being obedient to God...

WHY do this if God predetermines who will be saved?

God gives to all the opportunity to become saved...
The problem is that you read the NT as being descriptive of a Christian.
John 3:16 THAT WOSOEVER BELIEVES....to you means those that are already saved.

I read it as Prescriptive....it's the prescription for HOW to become saved.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES...Whoever wants to believe will be saved.

The reason I dislike calvinism is because it changes the nature of God.
How many times have you heard those on my side call God a monster in the way you describe Him?
He indeed would be a monster - It's difficult for me to understand why you don't see this.
 
electedbyhim

The member in the other thread gets upset when her threads are derailed....

This is not the first time you've mentioned the title under my avatar. It's apparent you have some kind of resentment toward me and I find this interesting since we don't know each other.

You can post to me or you cannot.
What you cannot do on THIS forum is disrespect members and make inflammatory statements about them.

We're like family here and we like to treat each other with christianly love. I know not all forums are like this, so please make that adjustment.
 
electedbyhim

The member in the other thread gets upset when her threads are derailed....

This is not the first time you've mentioned the title under my avatar. It's apparent you have some kind of resentment toward me and I find this interesting since we don't know each other.

You can post to me or you cannot.
What you cannot do on THIS forum is disrespect members and make inflammatory statements about them.

We're like family here and we like to treat each other with christianly love. I know not all forums are like this, so please make that adjustment.
What inflammatory statement is that and what disrespect?
 
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