God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

[GodsGrace]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mat 5:48 KJV)
Let me know when you are perfect like God in heaven. (Hint, we never shall be.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (Joh 8:32-34 KJV)

The self-righteous Jews who you quote pretended to be very religious, but the truth of the matter was that these dishonest, irreverent, people who took to misquoting scripture were soon to be murderers—for even now they were plotting the death of the Son of God. Jesus told them they were not sons, but the servent of sin and in the verse you omitted, verse 35, Jesus said to them that like slaves they could be put out of the house at any time. They did not belong there. “And the servant abideth not in the house for ever.”

Fancy quoting evil wicked people to support your corrupt religion.
.

I agree with you, but, which corrupt religion?

 

[Cooper]

I agree with you, but, which corrupt religion?

He is the best one to ask, he will simply say Christian, all I know is that it is at odds with scripture. Someone said it appears to be Christian perfectionism.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

You said, "Their Adamic bodies no longer exist" I really wish that you were right. You are right spiritually, but not physically. Yes, we have been crucified with Christ, but wait, I am still here in this physical body talking to you on the computer. This unredeemed physical body is prone to sin. This is why Paul said, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19. Sounds to me like Paul is struggling with his sin problem. Doesn't sound to me like Paul's Adamic nature no longer exist.

I agree, but is it our body that sins?
Or is it our soul or our spirit?
The body, on its own, is not animated.
I'd have to say that the soul sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

He is the best one to ask, he will simply say Christian, all I know is that it is at odds with scripture. Someone said it appears to be Christian perfectionism.
.

Christian perfectionism is an idea, or teaching.
Honestly, I don't know of any church that teaches this.

 

[Free]

You should look at the other words defining "sanctification".
Atoned for, set aside, consecrated, made holy.
All these things happen at the application of the Lord's sanctifying blood.
Did you notice that both sanctification and justification occur in 1 Cor 6:11?
Neither is gradual or ongoing.

Justification (past), sanctification (past/present, depending on context), glorification (future).

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)

There is a sense in which we have been sanctified, set apart from the world, having been justified. However, there is a definite sense in which we are continually being sanctified, continually being made holy and perfect, through ongoing trials.

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (ESV)

Agreed, but that also shows one can't be instant and the other a long, drawn out, gradual occurrence.
"One depends on the other".

Sanctification depends on justification, otherwise it just becomes works salvation.

Jesus commanded we be as perfect as His Father in Matt 5:48.
Jesus doesn't command the impossible.

But, what is the specific context that Jesus is talking about? Even Paul didn't consider himself perfect (Phil 3:12).

The converted are in God as Jesus was in God.
Wasn't Jesus sanctified while He walked on earth?
Of course He was.

Jesus was sinless and not in need of sanctification, just as he wasn't in need of justification. We are not sinless and in need of both.

It has probably been posted but I'll risk posting it again because it appears necessary:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

 

[Cooper]

Justification (past), sanctification (past/present, depending on context), glorification (future).

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)

There is a sense in which we have been sanctified, set apart from the world, having been justified. However, there is a definite sense in which we are continually being sanctified, continually being made holy and perfect, through ongoing trials.

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (ESV)


Sanctification depends on justification, otherwise it just becomes works salvation.


But, what is the specific context that Jesus is talking about? Even Paul didn't consider himself perfect (Phil 3:12).


Jesus was sinless and not in need of sanctification, just as he wasn't in need of justification. We are not sinless and in need of both.

It has probably been posted but I'll risk posting it again because it appears necessary:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Do you mind if I keep that in my notes Free, you explain it very well.
.

 

[Hopeful]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mat 5:48 KJV)
Let me know when you are perfect like God in heaven. (Hint, we never shall be.)

Thanks to the wonderful love of God, it has already been accomplished.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (Joh 8:32-34 KJV)
The self-righteous Jews who you quote pretended to be very religious, but the truth of the matter was that these dishonest, irreverent, people who took to misquoting scripture were soon to be murderers—for even now they were plotting the death of the Son of God. Jesus told them they were not sons, but the servent of sin and in the verse you omitted, verse 35, Jesus said to them that like slaves they could be put out of the house at any time. They did not belong there. “And the servant abideth not in the house for ever.”

I didn't "omit it", as it had nothing to do with being freed from committing sin.
Something the truth will do for all who will submit to God.

Fancy quoting evil wicked people to support your corrupt religion.

I quoted Jesus' words to those you call corrupt, and their responding question to Him.
And His answer.
Does the idea of being obedient to God really bother you that much?

 

[Hopeful]

To awake to righteousness, to sin not, is not just not committing sin, it is as it says, righteousness.

You cant awake to something and still be asleep to it.

What is righteousness to you ?

Righteousness, to me, is loving God with all my strength and might, and loving my neighbor as I love myself.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Amen to that.
Remember it when you hear some preacher say "Nobody is perfect".

 

[Hopeful]

You said, "Their Adamic bodies no longer exist" I really wish that you were right.

How can it not "be right"?
Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Do you think he was wrong?
I know he wasn't wrong.

You are right spiritually, but not physically. Yes, we have been crucified with Christ, but wait, I am still here in this physical body talking to you on the computer. This unredeemed physical body is prone to sin. This is why Paul said, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19. Sounds to me like Paul is struggling with his sin problem. Doesn't sound to me like Paul's Adamic nature no longer exist.

Who "drives the car"?
Your physical body cannot commit sin.
Your mind initiates every sin, so quit blaming your skin and bones for sin.
Paul's Rom 7 plaints were of his prior life while still in the flesh.
He wrote in verse 5 that he wasn't in the flesh any longer..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)

 

[Hopeful]

Justification (past), sanctification (past/present, depending on context), glorification (future).

You are ignoring what the scripture says..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11)
All are accomplished, washed, sanctified, and justified; all at the same time in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is where/when the blood of Christ is applied to us. (Acts 2:38)

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)

You need a version of the bible that is much closer to the KJV.
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:19-22)
Where in that is sanctification mentioned?

There is a sense in which we have been sanctified, set apart from the world, having been justified. However, there is a definite sense in which we are continually being sanctified, continually being made holy and perfect, through ongoing trials.
Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (ESV)

Even your version of the bible recognizes we can be perfect.

Sanctification depends on justification, otherwise it just becomes works salvation.

Sanctification depends on a few things, not the least of which is a true repentance from sin.
And that has nothing to do with the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.

But, what is the specific context that Jesus is talking about? Even Paul didn't consider himself perfect (Phil 3:12).

The "specific context" was the things spoken of by our Lord in the sermon on the mount. (Matt 5)
What Paul had yet to "attain" was his glorified body. (Phil 3:21)

Jesus was sinless and not in need of sanctification, just as he wasn't in need of justification. We are not sinless and in need of both.

But the reborn don't remain unsanctified, unjustified, or sinners.

It has probably been posted but I'll risk posting it again because it appears necessary:
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

If we have been cleansed of "all unrighteousness", why cant we say we have no unrighteousness?
John uses an alternating system in 1 John 1. (Paul uses the same juxtaposing system in Rom 8)
Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those walking in the light, God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness, sin.
It is the sinners who cannot truthfully say they have no sin.
Those walking in the light can say it, as there is no sin in God !

 

[Cooper]

thanks to the wonderful love of god, it has already been accomplished.

I didn't "omit it", as it had nothing to do with being freed from committing sin.
Something the truth will do for all who will submit to God.

I quoted Jesus' words to those you call corrupt, and their responding question to Him.
And His answer.
Does the idea of being obedient to God really bother you that much?

So, you think you are perfect.

The proud Pharisees thought that as well. In their sinful flesh they thought they were not as other men. Is that you?
.

 

[Cooper]

Thanks to the wonderful love of God, it has already been accomplished.

I didn't "omit it", as it had nothing to do with being freed from committing sin.
Something the truth will do for all who will submit to God.

I quoted Jesus' words to those you call corrupt, and their responding question to Him.
And His answer.
Does the idea of being obedient to God really bother you that much?

This sounds like an extension of Calvinism. Elected and made perfect.
.

 

[Cooper]

This sounds like an extension of Calvinism. Elected and made perfect.
.

I should have said, elected from the foundation of the earth, and when born, made perfect.
.

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree, but is it our body that sins?
Or is it our soul or our spirit?
The body, on its own, is not animated.
I'd have to say that the soul sins.

You would be right. "The soul that sins must die" Jesus took our sins and put them to death.

 

[GodsGrace]

You would be right. "The soul that sins must die" Jesus took our sins and put them to death.

Thanks for the verse.
Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul that sins must die."

And, yes, Jesus took our sins and nailed them to the cross.
But are you another Christian perfectionist? Some believe they
do not sin.

 

[Free]

Do you mind if I keep that in my notes Free, you explain it very well.
.

Feel free.

 

[Hopeful]

So, you think you are perfect.

Yes, in all the things God wants us to be like Him.
He commanded it in Matt 5:48, so how can I call myself one of His but disobey?

The proud Pharisees thought that as well. In their sinful flesh they thought they were not as other men. Is that you?

I don't know if the Pharisees ever thought that, but I know that they could not be perfect.
Before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, they were never given the opportunity to crucify the old man, and be raised with Christ as a new creature reborn of God's seed.
That which is born of God is perfect.

 

[Hopeful]

This sounds like an extension of Calvinism. Elected and made perfect.
.

More like..."Chose to be obedient".

All men have the same decision to make.

 

[Hopeful]

I should have said, elected from the foundation of the earth, and when born, made perfect.
.

If God opted to make me perfect, I wonder why He waited so many, violent, years?
Oh, yeah, It took me that long to elected to submit to Him !
Thanks be to God, in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Thanks for the verse.
Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul that sins must die."

And, yes, Jesus took our sins and nailed them to the cross.
But are you another Christian perfectionist? Some believe they
do not sin.

I guess even Ezekiel knew that skin and bones are not intrinsically evil.
They cannot be blamed for sin.
The mind controls what the flesh does.