Grace is given and not merely offered !

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

the longsuffering of God is not just toward the elect.

When it comes to salvation it is..

2 pet 3:

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

[mondar]

You the elect readers in Peter can be all that read and recieved the epistle of peter that are believers, but we are know that audience. 2 peter 3:9 address both the believer and the lost who will hear and read it. As any is well any person should not perish.
I'm not a calvinist, never was.

talk about confusion.

Mondar please address what i attempted to say, if you are confused ask me to restate.

Jason, I really would prefer not responding. If you are asking why I see the word "you" as referring to only believers in 2 Peter 2:9, let me say....
1*** If you go back to 1 Peter 1:1 Peter distinctly says he is writing to the "elect who are sojourners"
2*** Even in the context of 2 Peter 3 you see Peter addressing his audience in terms of endearment. If you look at verse 8, Peter calls his readers "beloved." It seems unlikely he would address unbelievers with such a term of endearment.
3*** He is going to again use the term "you" (ye) in verse 11. There he exorts who to personal holiness? It is believers that should respond to the prophecies of the "Day of the Lord" with personal holiness. It is believers that "looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God" (vs 12).
4*** Vs 14 has the words "14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight." In this verse we see both the terms "you" and the term "beloved." Also look at what is being said. The "you" and "beloved" are found without spot. They are blameless. Surely we do not include unbelievers in this group.
5*** Finally a major clincher comes in vs 15. Peter again speaks of the same thing he spoke of in verse 9, Gods long-suffering. Here Peter specifically states that Gods long-suffering is salvation. He does not say he is long-suffering so that the theoretical possibility of salvation coming to some unbeliever might continue to exist. He says that Gods long-suffering "is salvation."
6*** One more, in verse 17 notice how the word "you" and "beloved" once again occur in the same verse and thought. If the word "you" in this context refers to both unbelievers and believers, then unbelievers are steadfast?

Jason, to insert the concept of unbelievers into the word "you" in the writings of Peter seems to create exegetical mayhem. There would be no consistency to reading any word in the context. For the 6 contextual reasons above, I really think that we should see the word "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 as referring only to the elect. The context is about God being long-suffering toward the elect. God waits for each of them to repent before he burns the universe with fire at the end of the Day of the Lord.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You the elect readers in Peter can be all that read and recieved the epistle of peter that are believers, but we are know that audience. 2 peter 3:9 address both the believer and the lost who will hear and read it. As any is well any person should not perish.
I'm not a calvinist, never was.

talk about confusion.

Mondar please address what i attempted to say, if you are confused ask me to restate.

Jason, I really would prefer not responding. If you are asking why I see the word "you" as referring to only believers in 2 Peter 2:9, let me say....
1*** If you go back to 1 Peter 1:1 Peter distinctly says he is writing to the "elect who are sojourners"
2*** Even in the context of 2 Peter 3 you see Peter addressing his audience in terms of endearment. If you look at verse 8, Peter calls his readers "beloved." It seems unlikely he would address unbelievers with such a term of endearment.
3*** He is going to again use the term "you" (ye) in verse 11. There he exorts who to personal holiness? It is believers that should respond to the prophecies of the "Day of the Lord" with personal holiness. It is believers that "looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God" (vs 12).
4*** Vs 14 has the words "14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight." In this verse we see both the terms "you" and the term "beloved." Also look at what is being said. The "you" and "beloved" are found without spot. They are blameless. Surely we do not include unbelievers in this group.
5*** Finally a major clincher comes in vs 15. Peter again speaks of the same thing he spoke of in verse 9, Gods long-suffering. Here Peter specifically states that Gods long-suffering is salvation. He does not say he is long-suffering so that the theoretical possibility of salvation coming to some unbeliever might continue to exist. He says that Gods long-suffering "is salvation."
6*** One more, in verse 17 notice how the word "you" and "beloved" once again occur in the same verse and thought. If the word "you" in this context refers to both unbelievers and believers, then unbelievers are steadfast?

Jason, to insert the concept of unbelievers into the word "you" in the writings of Peter seems to create exegetical mayhem. There would be no consistency to reading any word in the context. For the 6 contextual reasons above, I really think that we should see the word "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 as referring only to the elect. The context is about God being long-suffering toward the elect. God waits for each of them to repent before he burns the universe with fire at the end of the Day of the Lord.

Good refutation..

 

[Vince]

Actually, the title is correct: grace is GIVEN, not offered. How does God give His grace?

1) He enlightens everyone John 1:9 9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." God doesn't offer light to everyone; He gives it.

2) He draws all men to Christ John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." He doesn't offer to draw all men to himself, He does draw them to Himself.

3) This grace appears to all men Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men," God does not offer to make this grace appear, He does make it appear.

Calvinists have a different ministry than the New Testament evangelists:
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 "...God... has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself..."

 

[jasoncran]

vince does that word world(kosmos?) mean all the world or only that are already chosen?

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

Actually, the title is correct: grace is GIVEN, not offered. How does God give His grace?

1) He enlightens everyone John 1:9 9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." God doesn't offer light to everyone; He gives it.

Sorry but John 1: 9 is speaking of the elect of God, for Jesus enlightens them with the True light, for the unregenerated have no true light at all..

In fact, when we are born by nature we are darkness per eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

For Jesus gives true light to all His chosen ones coming into the world, that they may have the light of life..

This true light that Jesus christ gives His chosen is the life they had with Him as their Head Jn 1:

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


This is not talking about physical life that was in Him, for the elects physical life was in the First Adam in Gen 1-3 but the elects spirtual life was in the second adam and He was a quickening spirit 1 cor 15:

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So your wrong, for God does not give the non elect light from Jesus christ, for again, they are born in darkness and will remain in darkness all their days..

In fact all 3 of your references are wrong, none of them apply to the non elect..

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

the longsuffering of God is not just toward the elect.

When it comes to salvation it is..

2 pet 3:

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

It doesn't appear you can balance God's sovereignty with man's free will.
Is that what I'm seeing here?

God is longsuffering that men should come to repentance.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

All the Father has given shall come AND those who come will not be cast out.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Man has a free will to accept or reject the grace of God...thus the call to repent.

And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

 

[glorydaz]

1) He enlightens everyone John 1:9 9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." God doesn't offer light to everyone; He gives it.

2) He draws all men to Christ John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." He doesn't offer to draw all men to himself, He does draw them to Himself.

3) This grace appears to all men Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men," God does not offer to make this grace appear, He does make it appear.

Amen....all men are drawn and commanded to repent.

It's God's will that all men be saved...

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God commands the wind, waves, animals, plants and insects...they all obey.

And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

Man alone will not come...resists....receives not....does not come when bidden...will not hearken..repents not. And yet some claim it's all God's doing. He picks some and doesn't pick others. Instead of putting the responsibility on man, they choose to blame God that some are lost and some are saved.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

And God longs to gather all men under his wing....but they would not.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[Vince]

Every time that the word "kosmos" appears in classical Greek literature and in the Bible, it means the "world." Neither the dictionary, classical Greek literature, nor the Bible support the philosophy that "the world" means "the elect."

Likewise, the philosophy that "all men" means "some men" is false.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Every time that the word "kosmos" appears in classical Greek literature and in the Bible, it means the "world." Neither the dictionary, classical Greek literature, nor the Bible support the philosophy that "the world" means "the elect."

Likewise, the philosophy that "all men" means "some men" is false.

Well it does mean the elect when seaking about salvation, thats the only world God Loved and Christ died for, was the world of His elect..

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

Man has a free will to accept or reject the grace of God...thus the call to repent.

No they dont, God gives grace to the elect , mens freewill has nothing to do with is, in fact men dont have a freewill, thats a made up satanic myth..

And as far as repentance goes, it too is give to Gods chosen people, His Israel acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats the only people God calls to repent, those whom the Saviour has given repentance..

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

Amen....all men are drawn and commanded to repent.

No they are not, only all of the elect of every nation..

 

[Vince]

"Sorry but John 1: 9 is speaking of the elect of God,"


No, it's speaking about " every man coming into the world."

 

[savedbygrace57]

"Sorry but John 1: 9 is speaking of the elect of God,"


No, it's speaking about " every man coming into the world."

Sorry, but every man that comes into the world does not have true light from christ, for if that were true they would not be darkness eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

One who is not following Jesus christ, has not been given true light from Him..

 

[glorydaz]

"Sorry but John 1: 9 is speaking of the elect of God,"


No, it's speaking about " every man coming into the world."

Sorry, but every man that comes into the world does not have true light from christ, for if that were true they would not be darkness eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

One who is not following Jesus christ, has not been given true light from Him..

That all men MIGHT believe. Whosoever will...."we were sometimes in darkness" ourselves. Some are in darkness to this day. Just as John came to bear witness of the light, we are to bear witness of the light and call on man to repent and believe. Thus the Gospel is to be preached...so those still in darkness will repent and come to the light. It's a simple, but powerful thing, the Gospel. It's the way we came to the light. There is really a lot of room in heaven....why some people want to keep others from receiving what they, themselves, have is not showing the love Christ has asked of His church.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Jesus is the light...in the world, but the world knew him not.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

His own received him not....but, AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM...he gave power to become the sons of God.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Those who have faith and believe are received by Him.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Vince]

In addition to giving light to every man who comes into the world, God also gives repentance to everyone.
He does not merely offer repentance, He grants it.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

As with light, men are free to accept or reject repentance.
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

Man has a free will to accept or reject the grace of God...thus the call to repent.

No they dont, God gives grace to the elect , mens freewill has nothing to do with is, in fact men dont have a freewill, thats a made up satanic myth..

Ah yes, a "satanic myth". :nag
Judgment would be a farce if man didn't have freewill.

Anyway, God seems to think otherwise.....

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

We're told here to choose.....

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

And here.....

Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.â€

Know and do or don't do....choice.
Ah, and here. Man can refuse, reject, turn away from..or repent, obey, disobey....all those verses you so easily dismissed. ;)

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[jasoncran]

svbg57 are you married, did you will your wife to love you, or did she choose to love you.

 

[glorydaz]

In addition to giving light to every man who comes into the world, God also gives repentance to everyone.
He does not merely offer repentance, He grants it.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

As with light, men are free to accept or reject repentance.
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

I agree, we certainly are free to accept or reject repentance.
Repentance means to turn or change one's mind. Turn from that which aflicts us (sin) and look upon the light of Christ. The Light is there shining brightly...those who choose to reject Him will die in their sins. Those who choose to put their faith in (look upon) Him will live.

Just as the children of Israel were free to look at the serpent on the stick (by faith) believing the "looking" alone would save them. Or they could simply stand there and stare at their wound, or run in circles hoping the poison would work it's way out of their system, or seek some anti-venom ...none of which would effect a remedy.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

You can't put your faith in Christ without first turning and seeing Christ.
Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. This is why we preach the Gospel...to tell of the light that has come unto the world.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.....(6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

I am not a fan of Calvinism, here is why. Jesus came to save the world and anyone who believes. I have a question for anybody who is a Calvinist. My question is how do you know you are the elect? How do you know? Did God actually come to you and say you were his elect? You must just assume you are. I know I am saved because I choose to accept the grace of God, but to those who are calvinists, how do you know you are saved and how do you know you are his elect?