Grace is given and not merely offered !

[mutzrein]

I am not a fan of Calvinism, here is why. Jesus came to save the world and anyone who believes. I have a question for anybody who is a Calvinist. My question is how do you know you are the elect? How do you know? Did God actually come to you and say you were his elect? You must just assume you are. I know I am saved because I choose to accept the grace of God, but to those who are calvinists, how do you know you are saved and how do you know you are his elect?

How do you know you are your father's son?

 

[JohnEboy1983]

How do you know you are your father's son?

Because I am born of him. Same thing with God, I know I am counted as his son because I have put my faith in his offering of grace and he has lovingly adopted me in. He willingly adopted me in because I chose him and his offering. Now let me ask you, how do you know without giving me the same answer. You cannot say you chose him because you probably lean on the calvinist view, so let me ask you the same?

 

[mutzrein]

How do you know you are your father's son?

Because I am born of him. Same thing with God, I know I am counted as his son because I have put my faith in his offering of grace and he has lovingly adopted me in. He willingly adopted me in because I chose him and his offering. Now let me ask you, how do you know without giving me the same answer. You cannot say you chose him because you probably lean on the calvinist view, so let me ask you the same?

Same thing with God? Surely not. Did you choose to be born of your father?

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Same thing with God? Surely not. Did you choose to be born of your father?

And nor did my father choose me so to compare this to the election is irrelevant.

By saying the same thing with God, I mean willingly choosing him is how I know I am born of him. I chose Christ and he baptized me with his Holy Spirit into his body. I became one with Christ and born again by choosing his grace. Now answer my question and how do you know you are born of God?

 

[mutzrein]

Same thing with God? Surely not. Did you choose to be born of your father?

By saying the same thing with God, I mean willingly choosing him is how I know I am born of him. I chose Christ and he baptized me with his Holy Spirit into his body. I became one with Christ and born again by choosing his grace. Now answer my question and how do you know you are born of God?

I know because His Spirit dwells within me. I know because I have the witness of others who are also born of God. I know because I know Him and he knows me. I know because I Iove Him and His Christ. I know because I love my neighbour. I know because none of these things would be possible if he did not choose me as His child. Even as I had no choice in my natural birth, so it was when I was born of God. This I know.

 

[mutzrein]

BTW - I love your pup - I used to breed german shepherds.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

I know because His Spirit dwells within me. I know because I have the witness of others who are also born of God. I know because I know Him and he knows me. I know because I Iove Him and His Christ. I know because I love my neighbour. I know because none of these things would be possible if he did not choose me as His child. Even as I had no choice in my natural birth, so it was when I was born of God. This I know.

You can love God and your neighbors all you want but if he did not choose you he did not choose you and there is no solid evidence that you know for sure his spirit dwells within you and you are saved. I know for sure because I accepted his grace, was baptized by his spirit and became a part of the body of christ, resulting in being born again and change. You may say you know you are saved and that knowing can just be a feeling. Even evil people can love and do good and that doesnt mean they are born of God. This is why I have a problem with Calvinism. It is by accepting the offering of grace and not merely by what we say and do. Anyways, its good to hear your thoughts on why you believe in the Calvinism view point and maybe I have given you some insight as well. And in no means am I calling you unsaved so please dont take it like that. I am just giving an example. Its been nice debating with you lol.

BTW - I love your pup - I used to breed german shepherds.

Thanks, and thats cool. Must be a cool experience to breed them.

 

[mutzrein]

I know because His Spirit dwells within me. I know because I have the witness of others who are also born of God. I know because I know Him and he knows me. I know because I Iove Him and His Christ. I know because I love my neighbour. I know because none of these things would be possible if he did not choose me as His child. Even as I had no choice in my natural birth, so it was when I was born of God. This I know.

You can love God and your neighbors all you want but if he did not choose you he did not choose you and there is no solid evidence that you know for sure his spirit dwells within you and you are saved. I know for sure because I accepted his grace, was baptized by his spirit and became a part of the body of christ, resulting in being born again and change. You may say you know you are saved and that knowing can just be a feeling. Even evil people can love and do good and that doesnt mean they are born of God. This is why I have a problem with Calvinism. It is by accepting the offering of grace and not merely by what we say and do. Anyways, its good to hear your thoughts on why you believe in the Calvinism view point and maybe I have given you some insight as well. And in no means am I calling you unsaved so please dont take it like that. I am just giving an example. Its been nice debating with you lol.

[quote:8a71g9bn]BTW - I love your pup - I used to breed german shepherds.

Thanks, and thats cool. Must be a cool experience to breed them.[/quote:8a71g9bn]

Yes absolutely - they are such noble beautiful dogs. Actually the name I use here was our kennel name.

Anyway - I hope you don't mind if I respond to the reason for our 'debate'.

Now I know that anything I say in and of itself is not sufficient to prove that I am born of God. And I would hope that no-one would judge whether or not I was, merely on the basis of what I say I believe.

Personally I believe that many have a problem with Calvinism because there are elements of predestination that don’t with fit with their understanding of the character of God and I’m wondering if that is so with you. That said, I am not a ‘Calvinist’ as such, but I do believe what scripture says about those who are born of God in John; “Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision, or of a husbands will, but born of Godâ€.

I’d also like to clarify something else which you seem to have assumed. I have not said I know I am ‘saved’. Yes I know I am born again but to me ‘salvation’ is something that each one of us who are born of God’s spirit are told to work out in fear and trembling. I am also very aware of God’s wondrous grace and I can assure you with every fiber of my being that my relationship with God through Christ is much more than a feeling. It is a knowledge, not born of the intellect but born of the Spirit, that I am indeed His and He is mine. Jesus said of those who are His, ‘by their fruit you will know them.’ And that I believe is the measure of any who would claim to be His.

I think I will leave it at that unless you want to continue the discussion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

john says:

I am not a fan of Calvinism, here is why. Jesus came to save the world and anyone who believes

No He did not, He came to save His People from their sins..Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

I agree, we certainly are free to accept or reject repentance.

What scripture says people are free to accept or reject repentance ?

The bible tells me that Jesus christ gave repentance to a specfic people acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[savedbygrace57]

svbg57 are you married, did you will your wife to love you, or did she choose to love you.

Yes I am married, and God willed my Wife to Love Me..

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Yes I am married, and God willed my Wife to Love Me..

You married a robot? Cool! You make it sound like God programmed everybody and what they are programmed to do they do. What about when a spouse God gave for you to marry commits adultery or is unfaithful, did he also will for her to do those evil things also? It sounds to me if God willed our lives and we have no control over them, we should be walking without ever messing up and falling into sin and never saying the wrong things and always constantly doing everything right.

 

[jasoncran]

lol, why the verses then on divorce? obviously you didnt catch that one.johnnyboy did.

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

I agree, we certainly are free to accept or reject repentance.

What scripture says people are free to accept or reject repentance ?

The bible tells me that Jesus christ gave repentance to a specfic people acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And also to the gentiles...

Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Repentance means to turn.

That's what grace is all about. God allows us to turn and look upon the light of Christ.
We're commanded to repent (change our mind) and believe....turn from what we thought to be true and believe in Jesus.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus came to calls sinners to repent (turn from their old beliefs and believe in Jesus)

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Changing one's mind or turning to Chirst is choosing.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

And also to the gentiles...

Acts 11:18b wrote:
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Thats right, which gentiles are part of the Israel of acts 5 31..In either case repentance was given, not offered, or made available, but given Sovereignly to a special chosen people..

God also had a election in the gentiles too per acts 15:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

You see, to take out of the gentiles a people for His name sake..

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

And also to the gentiles...

Acts 11:18b wrote:
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Thats right, which gentiles are part of the Israel of acts 5 31..In either case repentance was given, not offered, or made available, but given Sovereignly to a special chosen people..

God also had a election in the gentiles too per acts 15:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

You see, to take out of the gentiles a people for His name sake..

You can't remove man's choice to resist or obey.
You fail to address those verses....why is that?

 

[savedbygrace57]

john :

You married a robot?

I married a God given wife,one which God said that she will be submitted to Her Husband gen 3:

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

1 pet 3:

1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now this thread is not about my wife.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

And also to the gentiles...

Acts 11:18b wrote:
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Thats right, which gentiles are part of the Israel of acts 5 31..In either case repentance was given, not offered, or made available, but given Sovereignly to a special chosen people..

God also had a election in the gentiles too per acts 15:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

You see, to take out of the gentiles a people for His name sake..

You can't remove man's choice to resist or obey.
You fail to address those verses....why is that?

God gives repentance to His chosen, thats all to it..

 

[glorydaz]

God gives repentance to His chosen, thats all to it..

Well, that's not quite all there is to it.
Else there would be no need to preach the gospel, as believers are called to do.
There would be no calls for sinners to repent.
There would be no resisting or turning or choosing.

There are "ifs" in the Word that show it's not quite as cut and dried as you might think.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

Well, that's not quite all there is to it.

That is all to it, Jesus christ as saviour gives His elect repentance, because He has redeemed them from the curse of the law..

Else there would be no need to preach the gospel

The gospel calls the elect to repentance, in this way their gift of repentance which was given to them by Jesus christ will become manifested..The gospel brings to light life and immortality 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: