Hell = Harsh?

[johnparktv]

Hi everyone,

I just joined this forum to ask a couple of questions which have been bugging me.

I've been a christian for a while, and I hope this question doesn't confuse anyone else.

Recently I have been constantly thinking about the idea of "hell" and how harsh it seems.
I have a non-christian friend who I speak to now and then, I must say he is actually quiet arrogant, he says things like "religion was made by .. etc etc for the purposes of ..

Yes, very know it all, very arrogant.

and I agree that this is bad, very bad, and I wish he wasn't this way.

However..

The punishment for being a non-christian is what has been bothering me...

Burn for the rest of eternity? ( don't know if its actually burn, but something bad and eternal )
How can 80 years of dis-obedience equal to an eternity of punishment?
I mean God is invisible and silent after all, I can sometimes see why people would not believe.

is this harsh or is it just me ?

 

[Adullam]

Eternal torment was in vogue for quite some time. However, this is not supported by the bible. The lake of fire is the second death. Fear not man but fear the Lord who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell. This is bad enough!

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

So, was God whistling Dixie with all this "and the fire of their torment rose forever and ever" stuff? Hardly.

Christ died on a cruel Roman cross to save all from this fate worse than death. This Second Death. This second separation from God.

 

[AnnieHere]

Eternal torment was in vogue for quite some time. However, this is not supported by the bible. The lake of fire is the second death. Fear not man but fear the Lord who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell. This is bad enough!

I agree. Not eternal torment, but everlasting destruction... never to exist again.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezek.18:4, 20)

It is comforting to know that our lost loved ones won't burn forever. God is merciful!

 

[GojuBrian]

God doesn't send us to hell. God did everything in his power to keep us from going to hell when he sacrificed his own son, Jesus Christ, so that we might spend eternal life with him.

Nobody has to go to hell unless they just want to turn from God, shame.

 

[JoJo]

God doesn't send us to hell. God did everything in his power to keep us from going to hell when he sacrificed his own son, Jesus Christ, so that we might spend eternal life with him.

Nobody has to go to hell unless they just want to turn from God, shame.

I agree.

Personally, I don't believe in hell as a "punishment" exactly. In my opinion, hell is a total separation from God (and subsequently anything good). I hear nonbelievers saying, "Why would a 'loving God' send someone to suffer in hell?" I don't believe that God is sending them to hell; it's just that when they die they will go where God isn't. They made the choice to reject Him and, consequently, will be rejected by Him in the end.

 

[johnparktv]

Yes, however,

I can't help think that this is too much of a....

you took my lunch so I'm going to steal your lunch back ...
you weren't on my side in this life so I'm not going to be on your side in the next

sometimes I think, Jesus died for everyone's sins, so why do only believers get saved?

if a non-believer dies and faces God, he'll immediately know how wrong he was...
doesn't that count for anything?

 

[mutzrein]

God doesn't send us to hell. God did everything in his power to keep us from going to hell when he sacrificed his own son, Jesus Christ, so that we might spend eternal life with him.

Nobody has to go to hell unless they just want to turn from God, shame.

So, do you think that God would send someone to hell who has never heard of Jesus?

 

[FightingAtheism]

Why is there evil in the world? Did God create evil? Why is there darkness in the world? Did God create darkness? No, darkness is the absence of lightness. Evil is the absense of Love, which is God. Your choice, evil or God. You choose evil, you know what is behind it, evil, which is hell. You choose God, you know what is behind it, love, the Perfect afterlife.

 

[Rick W]

Hey Mutz,
If you know anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus then tell them. :yes
We've been smuggling bibles and preaching to those in oppressed countries for quite some time. I honestly believe those who haven't heard of Christ are the exception rather than the rule. But if one wants to point out those who haven't heard well, it's to our shame.
I'm wondering if it's us that will be held accountable.
Those that haven't heard do they not have a law unto themselves? I honestly believe they will be judged as God sees fit for without knowing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ how can they be judged by a law they never heard?
God's judgment is just, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. By what law He judges another is for Him to determine.

Anyway,
The entire question of whether Hell is too harsh or not is to question whether God's judgment is right or not. Because Adam sinned death came into the world. Was that too harsh? Doesn't really matter if we think it was or not, we bear it. Was the Flood too harsh? Every man, woman and child died regardless of how they felt about it.

I believe Hell is the state of being without Christ, knowing the truth and thirsting for His presence forever.

The first glimpse is in Luke 16:22-31, the rich man now in torment, knowing the truth, begging for just a little water to cool His tongue.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The woman at the well.
John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: (The water of the world)
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (The living water of Christ)

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Fire = God's judgment
The refiner's fire. (God's judgment)
The unquenchable fire. (God's unchangeable righteousness and judgment)
Vain works burned up. (judged)

Torment. For me I can think of no other regret with as much torment as being separated from Christ knowing I was wrong, rejecting the truth time and time again, day after day and maybe even going as far as to take a stand of worldly opposition against those who believe. People think of physical torment but Christ taught the things of the heart during His ministry. Therefore I believe the distress will be for the heart to bear, forever, knowing one chose the world and not a relationship with our Lord and Savior.

 

[johnparktv]

Yeah, thats pretty much been my thought to alot of questions these days.
"he's god he's going to do whatever he wants..."


someone above was saying that darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good
but are you saying God didn't create evil and darkness? that they were there by "default" ?

I don't like the idea that god created these things....
but again....im an ant trying to understand things outside of me...

 

[Rick W]

How would we know good if there is no evil?
How would we know light if there is no darkness?
How would we know love if there is no pride?

Without the other the one becomes all there is and that without definition for no definition would be needed.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Mutz,
If you know anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus then tell them. :yes
We've been smuggling bibles and preaching to those in oppressed countries for quite some time. I honestly believe those who haven't heard of Christ are the exception rather than the rule. But if one wants to point out those who haven't heard well, it's to our shame.
I'm wondering if it's us that will be held accountable.
Those that haven't heard do they not have a law unto themselves? I honestly believe they will be judged as God sees fit for without knowing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ how can they be judged by a law they never heard?
God's judgment is just, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. By what law He judges another is for Him to determine.

Rick - are you saying that there is another way of getting into heaven, apart from being born again? Jesus said 'You MUST be born again' - not by another law that He will determine.

 

[Adullam]

Yes, however,

I can't help think that this is too much of a....

you took my lunch so I'm going to steal your lunch back ...
you weren't on my side in this life so I'm not going to be on your side in the next

sometimes I think, Jesus died for everyone's sins, so why do only believers get saved?

if a non-believer dies and faces God, he'll immediately know how wrong he was...
doesn't that count for anything?

I agree! There is a false doctrine going around that I call the "rumplestilzkin doctrine." That unless you get the name right you are confined to hell.

Jesus taught that those who would DO HIS COMMANDS would be saved. Not just give lip service. So there are many non-"Christians" who will be saved.

 

[Adullam]

Hey Mutz,
If you know anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus then tell them. :yes
We've been smuggling bibles and preaching to those in oppressed countries for quite some time. I honestly believe those who haven't heard of Christ are the exception rather than the rule. But if one wants to point out those who haven't heard well, it's to our shame.
I'm wondering if it's us that will be held accountable.
Those that haven't heard do they not have a law unto themselves? I honestly believe they will be judged as God sees fit for without knowing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ how can they be judged by a law they never heard?
God's judgment is just, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. By what law He judges another is for Him to determine.

Rick - are you saying that there is another way of getting into heaven, apart from being born again? Jesus said 'You MUST be born again' - not by another law that He will determine.

You must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Spiritual sight requires spiritual eyes.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Mutz,
If you know anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus then tell them. :yes
We've been smuggling bibles and preaching to those in oppressed countries for quite some time. I honestly believe those who haven't heard of Christ are the exception rather than the rule. But if one wants to point out those who haven't heard well, it's to our shame.
I'm wondering if it's us that will be held accountable.
Those that haven't heard do they not have a law unto themselves? I honestly believe they will be judged as God sees fit for without knowing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ how can they be judged by a law they never heard?
God's judgment is just, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. By what law He judges another is for Him to determine.

Rick - are you saying that there is another way of getting into heaven, apart from being born again? Jesus said 'You MUST be born again' - not by another law that He will determine.

You must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Spiritual sight requires spiritual eyes.

You also must be born again to ENTER the kingdom of God.

And regarding

Jesus taught that those who would DO HIS COMMANDS would be saved. Not just give lip service. So there are many non-"Christians" who will be saved.

how do you propose that these non Christians will be saved if not by being born again?

 

[Rick W]

Was Abraham born-again before Christ came into the world? He is seen in Heaven by the parable of the rich man in Hell. Was Elijah born-again before the resurrection of Christ? Yet, he's seen in heaven during the Transfiguration along with Moses. God will have those whom He will have regardless of what we think or feel about it.

You also must be born again to ENTER the kingdom of God.

Absolutely! I must be born-again. you must be born-again.
For us there is no other way. For us there is only Christ. We must be born-again.


I have no idea what's in store for those who hadn't heard of Christ since we aren't given solid insight from scripture. For this reason I really have no other course than to leave it to the Father. Anything else is but pure supposition and conjecture on our part. With no basis for any rational decision there can be no rational argument one way or another concerning their fate.
However, we do know a little about the circumstances before Christ came into the world. And it's very possible we may have a glimpse of the will of the Father that it is He, the Creator, who is to be worshiped and not the creature.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Neither do we have any evidence of what God had already done, if anything, among the people who heard not the Word of Christ. We don't know if He was rejected, we don't know if He was embraced and we don't know if their legends were from a misunderstanding of God's actions through disbelief.
We know Paul preached the gospel everywhere he went. But look at the reactions of the people in Acts 28 and Acts 14:9-13. Rather than accept his words they opted instead to think of Paul as a god.
What had God done among the people who knew not of the risen Christ? We simply don't know.

 

[FightingAtheism]

God doesn't send us to hell. God did everything in his power to keep us from going to hell when he sacrificed his own son, Jesus Christ, so that we might spend eternal life with him.

Nobody has to go to hell unless they just want to turn from God, shame.

So, do you think that God would send someone to hell who has never heard of Jesus?

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(Lk.12:47,48)

 

[mutzrein]

God doesn't send us to hell. God did everything in his power to keep us from going to hell when he sacrificed his own son, Jesus Christ, so that we might spend eternal life with him.

Nobody has to go to hell unless they just want to turn from God, shame.

So, do you think that God would send someone to hell who has never heard of Jesus?

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(Lk.12:47,48)

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. What has this got to do with hell and someone who has never heard of Jesus?

 

[mutzrein]

Was Abraham born-again before Christ came into the world? He is seen in Heaven by the parable of the rich man in Hell. Was Elijah born-again before the resurrection of Christ? Yet, he's seen in heaven during the Transfiguration along with Moses. God will have those whom He will have regardless of what we think or feel about it.

You also must be born again to ENTER the kingdom of God.

Absolutely! I must be born-again. you must be born-again.
For us there is no other way. For us there is only Christ. We must be born-again.


I have no idea what's in store for those who hadn't heard of Christ since we aren't given solid insight from scripture. For this reason I really have no other course than to leave it to the Father. Anything else is but pure supposition and conjecture on our part. With no basis for any rational decision there can be no rational argument one way or another concerning their fate.
However, we do know a little about the circumstances before Christ came into the world. And it's very possible we may have a glimpse of the will of the Father that it is He, the Creator, who is to be worshiped and not the creature.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Neither do we have any evidence of what God had already done, if anything, among the people who heard not the Word of Christ. We don't know if He was rejected, we don't know if He was embraced and we don't know if their legends were from a misunderstanding of God's actions through disbelief.
We know Paul preached the gospel everywhere he went. But look at the reactions of the people in Acts 28 and Acts 14:9-13. Rather than accept his words they opted instead to think of Paul as a god.
What had God done among the people who knew not of the risen Christ? We simply don't know.

Thanks Rick - Of a truth, there is much that we simply don't know. However, scripture has I believe revealed much about the eternal 'fate' of mankind.

As a principle I accept that God has chosen to have children. Prior to Christ his children were the Jews. Following Christ, his children are all who have been born of his Spirit. Rather than look back to the relationship afforded by God to his own people (the Jews) I would like start with Christ.

We know that Jesus said that man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again. This is an absolute statement.
We know that when Jesus walked on earth he preached and sent the disciples to preach that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. So what Jesus was going to usher in was something new.

We know that Jesus came that man might have life – eternal life. Through the cross, the Christ of God defeated sin and death.

After defeating sin and death, we know that Jesus returned to the Father and he asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit (that had previously dwelt WITH man) so that it may dwell WITHIN man. This Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of which man MUST be born in order to receive eternal life. Those who have received the Spirit have crossed from death to life.

Scripture also tells us that those who do not believe in the only begotten son of the Father will NOT have eternal life – but perish.

So let us consider what this all means. If man must be born of the Spirit in order to inherit eternal life and the kingdom of God, his prior state, must be one of death. He does not have (is not born of) the Spirit of Life. And if he does not have the spirit of life he will perish as John 3:16 attests. And by perishing I do read ‘eternal punishment in hell’.

So tell me, from the time of Christ till now, where is there room for inheriting the kingdom of God by any other means than being born again? If you say there is one then Jesus plainly died for nothing!