Bible Study Help, please! So confused…

[Free]

In my scenario, he creates a garden utopia of unending love and bliss.

In reality, he created that exact thing, but with a built in fatal flaw that he knew would be implemented, to ultimately bring himself glory.

‘God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.’

Why did he need to do all that? If he’s God, why couldn’t he just reveal his full glory in a much simpler way?

That is a good question. I think that if he couldn't do it in a simpler way, then there was no other way. This is key from that link: "God’s wrath and God’s mercy display the riches of His glory, but we cannot see either without the fall of mankind. We would never know grace if we had never needed grace."

Imagine my scenario again- paradise. And imagine that he simply imparts to them or infuses them with the fullness of his glory and suddenly they’re worshiping him for all eternity. I mean, I’m no god, but in my scenario the deity is worshipped forever in perfect harmony with beings that never knew a moment of death or suffering.

Maybe think of it this way. Look at any four or five-year-old; any young child. Do they truly love their father? Do they know what love truly is or know its depths? When their father gives them something, maybe a new toy, are they truly thankful? They might say "thank you" because they've been taught that is the right thing to do and maybe at some basic level they do feel thankful. But do they truly know the heart of their father? Do they know the depths of gratitude and why they should be so thankful? More could be said, but the point is this: do young children really know their father? Once they grow up, then they come to understand (hopefully) the depths of a father's love and are genuinely grateful for it.

God set things up on this earth in a way that, yes, we would fail, but through that failure, we could come to truly know him and know his heart. He sent his only Son to die for us, so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to him; there can be no greater example of love than that, no greater reason for gratitude, no greater way of actually knowing his heart than that.

You may not find that convincing, but at some point, you need to trust God that there simply was no better way for us to come to truly know and love him.

 

[hawkman]

Imagine my scenario again- paradise. And imagine that he simply imparts to them or infuses them with the fullness of his glory and suddenly they’re worshiping him for all eternity. I mean, I’m no god, but in my scenario the deity is worshipped forever in perfect harmony with beings that never knew a moment of death or suffering.

I think your scenario is already taking place and has been taking place .

Revelation 4

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Christians never sought vengence against Jews (or anyone else.

I never said they did. God did.

When Jesus ascended to the Throne, he sat down. We both know what that means.
The Word of God sought vengence on many unrepentant sinners, before he was born on earth.

Can you provide examples please? Im not sure what you mean.

God has never changed. Even as Christ has shown all humanity how merciful he is,

God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom.5:8

It's an awe inspiring thing to apply that to myself. To think that my sin is no different from the sin of slapping Jesus in the face, or spitting on him. He died "while we were yet sinners".....in other words, while men were sinning against him!

It’s more to the point and painful to the pride to realize what your sin does to other people.

When I think of the strength of our Savior doing that, it's mind blowing. I would have killed them. That's how weak and filthy I am.

I'm no expert or fan of evolution. The rest isn't complicated to me. In short, I believe the "imparted" knowledge of good and evil is that sin is really against God. Imo, it should be no mystery to a follower of Christ, because the ills of this world are a spiritual mattee.

Sin is also against God although that is less humbling to realize than admitting we sin against flawed sinning people too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’m willing to bet I’m not the only one on here who finds you absolutely unreasonable.

Of course. Most people don’t know why they believe as they do and so cannot give rational reasons for their position. Most people think they are free to believe as they wish and all opinions are equally valid. They don’t want the truth. They want what makes them feel good without thinking much.

The only opinion that matters is what God thinks.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

where does that leave you ? a sheep who is justified simply because that is the only way to heaven. or a goat?

Can someone explain what he is trying to say?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's always wonderful to fill the head of a new believer with your own version of Christianity instead of sticking to the axioms.

Until I changed away from the doom and gloom eschatology, I never realized how it affects so much of one’s thinking. She (not you, of course, but Rose) started out fine but as soon as she started to yell her eschatology at us, she went way off track.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In my scenario, he creates a garden utopia of unending love and bliss.

In reality, he created that exact thing, but with a built in fatal flaw that he knew would be implemented, to ultimately bring himself glory.

‘God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.’

Why did he need to do all that? If he’s God, why couldn’t he just reveal his full glory in a much simpler way?

Imagine my scenario again- paradise. And imagine that he simply imparts to them or infuses them with the fullness of his glory and suddenly they’re worshiping him for all eternity. I mean, I’m no god, but in my scenario the deity is worshipped forever in perfect harmony with beings that never knew a moment of death or suffering.

Adelaide, you, like anyone, can imagine how God does things and find a comfortable and even pleasing viewpoint. There will
certainly be those who will agree as it comforts and pleases them too. So if that’s what you want, you will find it.

 

[Edward]

John 12:24
24

I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat is planted in the soil and dies, it remains alone. But its death will produce many new kernels—a plentiful harvest of new lives.../NLT

 

[jerry63935]

Can someone explain what he is trying to say?

Mark 8:18​

“Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?”

 

[Adelaide]

You may not find that convincing, but at some point, you need to trust God that there simply was no better way for us to come to truly know and love him.

I think you’re right- that’s what it has to come to: trust. The struggle lies in whether the trust has been earned. What of those who have suffered so much that God the Father begins to feel like God the Abuser instead?

 

[Adelaide]

I think your scenario is already taking place and has been taking place .

Revelation 4

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Where and when? Certainly not here on earth presently….

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you’re right- that’s what it has to come to: trust. The struggle lies in whether the trust has been earned. What of those who have suffered so much that God the Father begins to feel like God the Abuser instead?

Not everyone is going to know God or love God or worship God.
God does not have to earn our trust.
He's not another human being --- we cannot speak about Him as if He were just another human being.
We can only know about God what Jesus has revealed about Him.
If you see Jesus, you see God.
Every Christian has suffered - but we know it is not God that is the abuser.

 

[Free]

I think you’re right- that’s what it has to come to: trust. The struggle lies in whether the trust has been earned. What of those who have suffered so much that God the Father begins to feel like God the Abuser instead?

That is another good question that is difficult to answer. Ultimately, God is in control and allows things to happen for reasons only he knows. Certainly God cannot just step in all the time and prevent all evil, or then it is evil that dictates God's actions. He calls us his children and we must, again, trust in God, to know and believe that he has our best interests at heart. We can trust him because of what he did for us on the cross. I honestly don't think many Christians truly understand what happened on the cross and the depth of his love for us, that he was willing to send his only Son to die because of the utter sinfulness of our sin (something else that is largely lost on Christians these days).

For believers, we can say that God is with us in our suffering, and he is able to make it work for our good (Rom 8:28). Believers need to surrender their suffering to God and allow him to redeem it and use it for our sanctification and his glory. God is interested in who we are to become and may use all means necessary to purify us, much like a surgeon must cause pain and suffering to remove cancer so a patient can live. In my experience, and the experience of countless other believers, suffering has deepened my faith and drawn me closer to God far more than anything else.

 

[Adelaide]

Not everyone is going to know God or love God or worship God.
God does not have to earn our trust.
He's not another human being --- we cannot speak about Him as if He were just another human being.
We can only know about God what Jesus has revealed about Him.
If you see Jesus, you see God.
Every Christian has suffered - but we know it is not God that is the abuser.

You’re right! He’s not another human being, but we ought to be able to trust him more than any human being. And no, he shouldn’t have to earn our trust, but since we’re human, is there any other way?
Every Christian has suffered… but surely some FAR more than others. Isn’t God the one allowing the abuse?

 

[GodsGrace]

You’re right! He’s not another human being, but we ought to be able to trust him more than any human being. And no, he shouldn’t have to earn our trust, but since we’re human, is there any other way?
Every Christian has suffered… but surely some FAR more than others. Isn’t God the one allowing the abuse?

Trusting God takes a long time.
I might be older than you are, I think.
As I was living a situation, it seemed dark and like the end of the world.
It seemed, in fact, like maybe God wasn't even nearby.

Then, as I looked back after some time, I realized that God was preparing me for something or other.
This might sound strange to you right now as a pretty new Christian...but someday you'll understand better.

As these situations occur in your life, you come to have more trust in God.
It's not that He's EARNING your trust...that's a humanly trait...
It's that you come to realize that God was there all the time and that maybe even the hard times prepared you for something.

So yes, this is the other way of trusting God - but it's going to be experiential.
You can't expect everything to be understood right away.
Some things about God take years to understand.
We take a step at a time and look to HIM, and continue on with our lives, just knowing that God created us in love.
He has no need of anything, so we know that love was involved in His creation.

So you asked a really good question. You said it like this:
ISN'T GOD THE ONE ALLOWING THE ABUSE?

Kudos to you for understanding the difference between ALLOWING something to happen and CAUSING it to happen.
We can know that God does not cause evil. Evil is caused by the evil one...the prince of the air...satan.

But God ALLOWS this evil to happen. Why?
That we cannot know. We only know what is told to us in Genesis.
God created man and the world (really V V)...
man knew only good,
until he hate of the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL...
and somehow evil was let loose into the world.

We're never really told why.
And here's where the trust comes in.

Let me make my belief system really simple:
There's a good force
and there's an evil force...
I just want to be on the side of the good force and present myself to that force.

When we get to heaven, we'll understand everything completely.

 

[Adelaide]

That is another good question that is difficult to answer. Ultimately, God is in control and allows things to happen for reasons only he knows. Certainly God cannot just step in all the time and prevent all evil, or then it is evil that dictates God's actions. He calls us his children and we must, again, trust in God, to know and believe that he has our best interests at heart. We can trust him because of what he did for us on the cross. I honestly don't think many Christians truly understand what happened on the cross and the depth of his love for us, that he was willing to send his only Son to die because of the utter sinfulness of our sin (something else that is largely lost on Christians these days).

For believers, we can say that God is with us in our suffering, and he is able to make it work for our good (Rom 8:28). Believers need to surrender their suffering to God and allow him to redeem it and use it for our sanctification and his glory. God is interested in who we are to become and may use all means necessary to purify us, much like a surgeon must cause pain and suffering to remove cancer so a patient can live. In my experience, and the experience of countless other believers, suffering has deepened my faith and drawn me closer to God far more than anything else.

So in the beginning God creates man with the choice to fail, knowing that’s the choice man will make.

When man makes this choice, a curse is enacted: after he dies he will suffer permanent separation from God, resulting in eternal torture in a lake of fire.

The only way to repair this separation from God is to believe in him and accept that He is the only way to salvation.

Only some people go through hell on earth. Some people suffer from the moment they are born until the moment they die. Others suffer for only minutes, but through such hellacious trauma that it alters their brain chemistry forever. Sometimes the hell on earth is so real that the biblical hell ceases to matter.

 

[Adelaide]

Trusting God takes a long time.
I might be older than you are, I think.
As I was living a situation, it seemed dark and like the end of the world.
It seemed, in fact, like maybe God wasn't even nearby.

Then, as I looked back after some time, I realized that God was preparing me for something or other.
This might sound strange to you right now as a pretty new Christian...but someday you'll understand better.

As these situations occur in your life, you come to have more trust in God.
It's not that He's EARNING your trust...that's a humanly trait...
It's that you come to realize that God was there all the time and that maybe even the hard times prepared you for something.

So yes, this is the other way of trusting God - but it's going to be experiential.
You can't expect everything to be understood right away.
Some things about God take years to understand.
We take a step at a time and look to HIM, and continue on with our lives, just knowing that God created us in love.
He has no need of anything, so we know that love was involved in His creation.

So you asked a really good question. You said it like this:
ISN'T GOD THE ONE ALLOWING THE ABUSE?

Kudos to you for understanding the difference between ALLOWING something to happen and CAUSING it to happen.
We can know that God does not cause evil. Evil is caused by the evil one...the prince of the air...satan.

But God ALLOWS this evil to happen. Why?
That we cannot know. We only know what is told to us in Genesis.
God created man and the world (really V V)...
man knew only good,
until he hate of the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL...
and somehow evil was let loose into the world.

We're never really told why.
And here's where the trust comes in.

Let me make my belief system really simple:
There's a good force
and there's an evil force...
I just want to be on the side of the good force and present myself to that force.

When we get to heaven, we'll understand everything completely.

I’m not asking the questions I am as a result of a life of ease.
Quite the opposite- in my 41 years I’ve experienced far more than your average person. Suffering is my bedside companion, trust me.

I don’t want the answers after I die. That’s unacceptable. I want them now.

 

[journeyman]

I never said they did. God did.

God never said believers destroyed Jerusalem.

Can you provide examples please? Im not sure what you mean.

I mean Jesus is God and before he was born on earth, Jesus said,

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them Gen.6:13

It’s more to the point and painful to the pride to realize what your sin does to other people.

God tells us believers are like sheep for slaughter. As long as people know that what was done to the Shepherd was sinful, I'm good with it.

Sin is also against God although that is less humbling to realize than admitting we sin against flawed sinning people too.

The point of the gospel is that all sin is wronging God, like he was wronged at the cross, so I disagree with you.

 

[Free]

So in the beginning God creates man with the choice to fail, knowing that’s the choice man will make.

Yes. But man is still morally culpable for choosing to rebel against God.

When man makes this choice, a curse is enacted: after he dies he will suffer permanent separation from God, resulting in eternal torture in a lake of fire.

Yes to most of this. I don't think eternal "torture" is actually taught in the Bible, despite it seemingly being, or having been, a popular opinion. I think people will be in hell for eternity, but any physical punishment will not last for eternity (Luke 12:42-48). There will likely be, however, remorse and self-pity, perhaps self-loathing, for eternity because the truth will have been made plain and all in hell will know that justice was done, that they got what they deserved.

The only way to repair this separation from God is to believe in him and accept that He is the only way to salvation.

Yes, which is to believe in Jesus and his atoning work. The solution to the problem was provided by God himself through the suffering of the cross.

Only some people go through hell on earth. Some people suffer from the moment they are born until the moment they die. Others suffer for only minutes, but through such hellacious trauma that it alters their brain chemistry forever. Sometimes the hell on earth is so real that the biblical hell ceases to matter.

Yes, some people go through absolutely terrible things; that is the result of man's rebellion against God. Yet, none of those things will be as bad as hell; consider that the Bible says that the full force of evil is being restrained. Having said all that, God promises to be with believers through their suffering and to make it work for their good. This life is temporary; eternity is, well, forever. As bad and difficult as this life can be, it will end, sooner or later, and God cares about where we will spend eternity.

Just to be clear, I don't think there are any easy answers to evil and suffering. This has always been among the most difficult issues for believers to understand and reconcile with a loving God.

Perhaps this article will help, if only to give a little more food for thought: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-suffering-of-christ-and-the-sovereignty-of-god

 

[jerry63935]

I don’t want the answers after I die. That’s unacceptable. I want them now.

after we die we dont need answers .i know i sure have lots unanswered questions..