Holiness - are we made holy through repentance and confession

[gr8grace3]

Once a born again person understands that the only reason that God accepted you as His, is the same reason He accepts you now, is only because He has caused His very righteousness to become you.
You as a Christian were once dead in your sin..... But because the Blood of Redemption has been applied to you, you are now alive in and to righteousness.
Salvation, being "saved", is simply God supplying you with His very righteousness so that He can accept you as righteous.
Because God is HOLY< you have to equal His Holiness for Him to be able to have a relationship with you.
You have to become as Holy as God Himself.
As this is what you have become once God has given you "the gift of Righteousness".
This is what it means to be "born again".
And this has nothing to do with water, works, effort, church membership, or enduring.
Once you see this, once you have this enlightenment and revelation = you have then come to the knowledge of the Grace of God.
Until you do, you are still some type of legalist who is working and trying to be accepted by God, and not understanding that He wont accept you or your works.
He will only accept what He has offered to make you acceptable., and that happened on the CROSS.
God only accepts your faith in Christ, = which activates His Eternal Grace, which through the redemption of the Blood of Jesus, atones for your sin = and makes you acceptable to God as a family member.
Nothing you can do > of yourself< can cause this or keep this once it is applied to you.
Salvation is BY GRACE, and not by your effort or your deeds or anything you think you have to DO.
God accepts you by the ATONEMENT, and this is GRACE.
"For by GRACE you are saved, and this is NOT OF YOURSELF, but rather it is the GIFT OF GOD"...
The Gift of God, is God's Grace., and this is God giving you His very Righteousness as YOURS, based on what Jesus accomplished for you, on the CROSS.
This is redemption.
This is the Atonement.
This is what it means to be "born again".

Great post. Truth.......but will be rejected by most in todays world and Church.

 

[PeterJens]

I was praising God today, and it struck me to dwell in Him is everything.
He, the Lord, is all in all. We make things so complex, rather than let God layer the issues in
our lives so they make sense.
Maybe it is this layering that puts things is their right place.
It is our view that is wrong, to the Lord in the light it is so simple.
Maybe being honest about our hurts and failures, and then picking ourselves up and walking on is our
hardest perspective to get a handle on. Until something is finished in a sense it is a failure. If you see
the goal and how it will end you see the perfection.

 

[th1b.taylor]

From what are we saved?
Though He had no sin, what Christ did was to suffer the consequence of sin which is death. (Ro 6:23)

Jim, did you forget the Lost Man also reads your posts. I understand what you mean, I think but there are billions of the Lost that have no idea and with no explanation of your usage of the English Language it is easy for some ten year old to see what you said, have it stick and to grow up to believe in Universalism.

And by his resurrection He destroyed the power of death and corruption over the bodies on mankind. All will rise immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52ff)
So what Christ saved all of mankind from was death and corruption; all of mankind will rise from the dead

Jim,
Do you think we all rise at once or do you understand that there are two more? From your structure it looks very much like Universalism and that is not true. There are the Ressurection of the Saved (soon I believe) and the Resurrection of the Eternally dead for all of eternity dying.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, did you forget the Lost Man also reads your posts. I understand what you mean, I think but there are billions of the Lost that have no idea and with no explanation of your usage of the English Language it is easy for some ten year old to see what you said, have it stick and to grow up to believe in Universalism.

Why would they think that?
I said that all of mankind would be resurrected because Jesus saved ALL of mankind from the wages of sin which is the death and decay of the physical body.
That's what the scriptures say.
I did NOT say that all of mankind will spend eternity with Christ.
Only believers will do that.
The rest of mankind will experience and eternity in the lake of fire.
How is that "universalism"?

Do you think we all rise at once or do you understand that there are two more?

IMO, there is one and only one resurrection and only one judgment.
I totally reject the teachings of John Darby and those who propagated his theological inventions here in the USA.
That stuff fills pews and sells books and videos but it is NOT what the scriptures teach. If it were, that is what the Church would have been teaching it from day one instead of waiting until the 1830's to be "discovered."

You believe what you want. I don't think it will keep you out of the kingdom.

 

[Mike]

This is not directed at the member who posted immediately before me. Please remember the rules of the Theology Forum and the requirement of scripture to support your claim or dispute with someone else's claim. Some members have held to this and followed up without scripture in a subsequent post. That's fine and in keeping with the spirit of the rule. If you are presenting an argument with assertions or claiming someone is in error, it is critical that you cite scripture to support your stance.

Do not respond to this post.

 

[PeterJens]

Holiness as an example
Paul said he was the example to follow as he followed Christ.

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Cor 11:1

He talked about him living a holy pure life before the believers, as a testimony that he was speaking with authority.

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

We are called to be transformed into the image of the Lord.

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3:18

But what happens when a dispute errupts between believers, taking different positions based on interpretation
of scriptures. Often people resort to saying they are Gods pure true person and the other is evil, deceiptful
and full of hatred and bitterness. I find it an interesting dilemma, which Judas faced in betraying Christ.

The other dilemma is if people in the past have caused pain and hurt that is not resolved. It can make the
view tainted, off centre. We all can suffer from this, and sometimes the blows mean we shut God out and
walk away from church and interaction with others. I know of believers who have done this, which often leads
to a spiral of depression and self condemnation.

Jesus's answer for me is held in this verse,
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." matt 5:8

We think this is an optional extra, a nice to have for the super christians. Jesus is saying simply this is life,
the point were all loyalties lie with the King, and we know what matters and what does not.

Walking in this place is a glorious thing. Once you find this in the Lord, disputes no longer matter, just His
presence.

There will always be false teachers, posers, people who want attention, who will fight every and any corner
to prove or defend their place, we just have the Lord and that is enough.

 

[barelohim]

Holiness as an example
Paul said he was the example to follow as he followed Christ.

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Cor 11:1

He talked about him living a holy pure life before the believers, as a testimony that he was speaking with authority.

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

We are called to be transformed into the image of the Lord.

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3:18

But what happens when a dispute errupts between believers, taking different positions based on interpretation
of scriptures. Often people resort to saying they are Gods pure true person and the other is evil, deceiptful
and full of hatred and bitterness. I find it an interesting dilemma, which Judas faced in betraying Christ.

The other dilemma is if people in the past have caused pain and hurt that is not resolved. It can make the
view tainted, off centre. We all can suffer from this, and sometimes the blows mean we shut God out and
walk away from church and interaction with others. I know of believers who have done this, which often leads
to a spiral of depression and self condemnation.

Jesus's answer for me is held in this verse,
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." matt 5:8

We think this is an optional extra, a nice to have for the super christians. Jesus is saying simply this is life,
the point were all loyalties lie with the King, and we know what matters and what does not.

Walking in this place is a glorious thing. Once you find this in the Lord, disputes no longer matter, just His
presence.

There will always be false teachers, posers, people who want attention, who will fight every and any corner
to prove or defend their place, we just have the Lord and that is enough.

He will Justify the Righteous.

 

[barelohim]

Why would they think that?
I said that all of mankind would be resurrected because Jesus saved ALL of mankind from the wages of sin which is the death and decay of the physical body.
That's what the scriptures say.
I did NOT say that all of mankind will spend eternity with Christ.
Only believers will do that.
The rest of mankind will experience and eternity in the lake of fire.
How is that "universalism"?

IMO, there is one and only one resurrection and only one judgment.
I totally reject the teachings of John Darby and those who propagated his theological inventions here in the USA.
That stuff fills pews and sells books and videos but it is NOT what the scriptures teach. If it were, that is what the Church would have been teaching it from day one instead of waiting until the 1830's to be "discovered."

You believe what you want. I don't think it will keep you out of the kingdom.

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as [1] worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*n2
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no [1] power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him [2] a thousand years.*n3

 

[Jim Parker]

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as [1] worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*n2
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no [1] power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him [2] a thousand years.*n3

And what is it that you wish to communicate by posting those verses from John's ecstatic, apocalyptic vision?

 

[Mike]

barelohim what are the *n2 and *n3 links supposed to be for? They both draw errors.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hebrews tells us to live a Holy life
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 10:14
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 Thess 4:7
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do 1 Peter 1:15

The point about being cleansed or made Holy, it is God doing the defining not ourselves.
Like riding a bike, while you are balanced and riding you are doing well. If you fall off
you need to get up again and carry on riding.

A believer said to me that they did not believe they could stand before God clean and holy, washed
by the blood, they had always to have Christ standing there instead.
I understand this because often our struggles and failures overwhelm, but it struck me we were telling
God what we are, not listening to Him minister to our hearts. Some believers in effect live in unbelief
as if Christ has not cleansed them, they are still sinners needing to be saved, rather than walking
in fellowship with the Lord. It appears being Holy is what Paul preached to the disciples who came
to Christ, so we equally need to accept this to honour the Holy Spirit and His work in our hearts.
This has become my conviction, and my walk of faith.
What do you think?

We are made holy by ascetic struggle.
We are made holy by rooting out the strongholds of the devil in our lives and replacing them with the virtues.
We are made holy by choosing to do God's will as a way of life.
And we can't do any of it without the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
But God does not do it to us.
We don't just say a "sinner's prayer" and, Badabing!, we're holy!

We must choose every day to fight against the constant onslaught of the devil.
He want's you eternally dead and he's got nothing to loose and he doesn't need to rest or sleep.
Eph 6:11-18 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[fn] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

And to become holy, like Paul, we must never give up the fight.
2Ti 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

iakov the fool

 

[Free]

We are made holy by ascetic struggle.
We are made holy by rooting out the strongholds of the devil in our lives and replacing them with the virtues.
We are made holy by choosing to do God's will as a way of life.
And we can't do any of it without the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
But God does not do it to us.
We don't just say a "sinner's prayer" and, Badabing!, we're holy!

We must choose every day to fight against the constant onslaught of the devil.
He want's you eternally dead and he's got nothing to loose and he doesn't need to rest or sleep.
Eph 6:11-18 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[fn] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

And to become holy, like Paul, we must never give up the fight.
2Ti 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

iakov the fool

^^This.

Holiness, the process of sanctification, is something we are to be actively involved in.

2Co 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

(All ESV)

 

[Jim Parker]

Holiness, the process of sanctification, is something we are to be actively involved in.

Absolutely!!

 

[PeterJens]

Question: "What is the Holiness movement / church?"

Answer: The Holiness movement/church is an influence within Christianity that teaches that a person can achieve perfect holiness, or sinless perfection, while on earth. This doctrine teaches “entire sanctification,” which usually comes via a spiritual experience that those in the Holiness movement refer to as the “second work of grace” or the “second blessing.” The Holiness movement is opposed by Reformed thinkers, who assert that original sin still exists in even the most faithful person.

The Holiness movement began in 1840 when a Methodist leader named Phoebe Palmer began to hold revivals and teach the necessity of holiness—and how to attain it. Groups and denominations historically associated with the Holiness movement include Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, and the Salvation Army. However, it should be noted that churches differ widely on doctrine, even within denominations.

The Holiness movement did have a profound effect on the history of the church, particularly in North America during the Third Great Awakening. Holiness adherents are typically interested in obedience to the Law and see their obedience as a way to gain closeness to God and greater spirituality.

While holiness is a biblical mandate and something every believer should strive for (Hebrews 12:14), those in the Holiness movement typically leave out an important detail: the fact that absolute holiness is impossible to attain. Perfection, sinlessness, and a holy life are not within man’s power to achieve.

This idea is backed up by the Bible in numerous passages, most notably in the book of Romans. Paul’s argument in the first part of Romans is that man is fallen and unable to make himself follow the Law. In addition, it could be said that the whole history of Israel, with its repeated failures, is an object lesson about man’s inability to achieve holiness through the Law.

The Holiness movement is related to Pentecostalism in that it says that God helps the believer by giving him the “second blessing” of His Spirit. The “second blessing,” according to Holiness teaching, seals the believer in a sinless state. Unfortunately, a “sinless state” is not supported by either the Bible or human experience. While an emotional experience can make one feel that holiness is possible and that we never want to sin again, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is still beset with weakness (Romans 7:14–19). Even the apostle Paul was unable to be completely sinless, and he admitted as much, saying that the old law of sin was still alive in his body, even though he served God in his mind and spirit (Romans 7:21–23).

Elsewhere, Paul mentions a “thorn” in his flesh, making him rely on God’s strength instead of his own weakness (2 Corinthians 12:7). Near the end of his life, when by all accounts he should have been the most holy, Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Had Paul not received the second blessing? Or perhaps there is no second blessing resulting in sinlessness. The fact is that none of the apostles ever hinted at the possibility that man can achieve “entire sanctification,” and there is no mention in the Bible of a “second blessing” of the Spirit.

Christians do sin (1 John 1:5–10), but, hopefully, less and less as we mature in Christ (Philippians 3:12). The Holiness movement is wrong in its assumption that a believer can keep enough rules to attain sinless perfection in this world.


The above represents for me a statement of unbelief. In our faith it is always possible to accept some
parts and reject others. But do you know how God feels about this? Betrayed.
The Lord does not force us to do anything, He just brings His word and asks us to learn and follow.
We can make a faith our own way, or to belong to a group, or to keep various aspects of our lives happy.

So the error is simple here. It is the idea of walking with Jesus is about arriving at a goal, which is achieved
like climbing a mountain, to say I have done this, rather than this is a way of being, a fellowship, a communion,
a friend who never leaves, an understanding that transcends our very presence.

We are not on a game show of proving things, or building up badges. We do not make ourselves "worthy" but we
walk in a worthy way, we do not make ourselves saved, but because we are saved we honour the one who
saved us and follow His teaching.

A legalist talks about rules, a person in love does not want to upset the one they love but do the best for all.
A legalist wants a label of Holy, a person who loves Christ just wants to dwell with Him.
I hope you can see the difference, but I know from hard experience many do not.

 

[ezra]

What does that mean?
Does it matter how WE behave or not?

yes it does Galatians 2:20 roman 12:1-2 Colossians 3:5 the outside should match the inside granted we let our action get out of hand .but that is no excuse peter wrote Partakers of the Divine Nature
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3His divinepower has given us everything we need for life andgodliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.…

 

[ezra]

I like questions that are answered in stages.
For me the first question is, do I consider myself Holy?
When I read scripture it tells me a few things. We can enter the Holy of Holies.
We are the Holy temple of the Holy Spirit.
Our children are made Holy through the holiness in the believing parent.
Has Christ truly cleansed us and can we believe this? I think the answer is yes but it
is difficult to quantify.
I spent months pursuing this idea on one forum only to find many live in perpetual
self condemnation. Others claim the sin that seems to bind them, is too difficult to
overcome, and daily failures remind them it is impossible. Some sa ay it is a lie of
satan and taking away glory from Christ to say a believer can be holy. They often
only see Christs role in our failure and not the life of our walk.
So the first step takes faith, to believe the cross and Christs blood has redeemed us
and made us Holy. I think this is the first real step of our walk, when we see in us
what God has done. If we are part of the Kingdom of heaven on earth, we are Christs
body, His Holy precious witness, to the love that is eternal, here and now.
Many who have grown up in the church, know the language so well they live in the world
and of the world, but speak biblical verses. No wonder the word is so hard to make sense.

Holiness I think is firstly to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be purified through repentance
and faith, confessing our sins and knowing our love of God and His will.
Living a holy life is letting the love and word God has placed in our hearts work its way out
by contemplating and dwelling on it daily, hourly, in all that we do.
It is easy to let our emotions turn us around, but we can through Christ focus them again
on good things, heavenly things. This is often our dilemma, how to deal with daily distractions
and loss of focus. At least this is where I am at the moment.

:amen

 

[ezra]

A legalist talks about rules, a person in love does not want to upset the one they love but do the best for all.
A legalist wants a label of Holy, a person who loves Christ just wants to dwell with Him.
I hope you can see the difference, but I know from hard experience many do not.

amen

 

[ezra]

for us to be Holy we must be connected to the true vine john 15 5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[Free]

Question: "What is the Holiness movement / church?"

Answer: The Holiness movement/church is an influence within Christianity that teaches that a person can achieve perfect holiness, or sinless perfection, while on earth. This doctrine teaches “entire sanctification,” which usually comes via a spiritual experience that those in the Holiness movement refer to as the “second work of grace” or the “second blessing.” The Holiness movement is opposed by Reformed thinkers, who assert that original sin still exists in even the most faithful person.

The Holiness movement began in 1840 when a Methodist leader named Phoebe Palmer began to hold revivals and teach the necessity of holiness—and how to attain it. Groups and denominations historically associated with the Holiness movement include Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, and the Salvation Army. However, it should be noted that churches differ widely on doctrine, even within denominations.

The Holiness movement did have a profound effect on the history of the church, particularly in North America during the Third Great Awakening. Holiness adherents are typically interested in obedience to the Law and see their obedience as a way to gain closeness to God and greater spirituality.

While holiness is a biblical mandate and something every believer should strive for (Hebrews 12:14), those in the Holiness movement typically leave out an important detail: the fact that absolute holiness is impossible to attain. Perfection, sinlessness, and a holy life are not within man’s power to achieve.

This idea is backed up by the Bible in numerous passages, most notably in the book of Romans. Paul’s argument in the first part of Romans is that man is fallen and unable to make himself follow the Law. In addition, it could be said that the whole history of Israel, with its repeated failures, is an object lesson about man’s inability to achieve holiness through the Law.

The Holiness movement is related to Pentecostalism in that it says that God helps the believer by giving him the “second blessing” of His Spirit. The “second blessing,” according to Holiness teaching, seals the believer in a sinless state. Unfortunately, a “sinless state” is not supported by either the Bible or human experience. While an emotional experience can make one feel that holiness is possible and that we never want to sin again, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is still beset with weakness (Romans 7:14–19). Even the apostle Paul was unable to be completely sinless, and he admitted as much, saying that the old law of sin was still alive in his body, even though he served God in his mind and spirit (Romans 7:21–23).

Elsewhere, Paul mentions a “thorn” in his flesh, making him rely on God’s strength instead of his own weakness (2 Corinthians 12:7). Near the end of his life, when by all accounts he should have been the most holy, Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Had Paul not received the second blessing? Or perhaps there is no second blessing resulting in sinlessness. The fact is that none of the apostles ever hinted at the possibility that man can achieve “entire sanctification,” and there is no mention in the Bible of a “second blessing” of the Spirit.

Christians do sin (1 John 1:5–10), but, hopefully, less and less as we mature in Christ (Philippians 3:12). The Holiness movement is wrong in its assumption that a believer can keep enough rules to attain sinless perfection in this world.


The above represents for me a statement of unbelief. In our faith it is always possible to accept some
parts and reject others. But do you know how God feels about this? Betrayed.
The Lord does not force us to do anything, He just brings His word and asks us to learn and follow.
We can make a faith our own way, or to belong to a group, or to keep various aspects of our lives happy.

So the error is simple here. It is the idea of walking with Jesus is about arriving at a goal, which is achieved
like climbing a mountain, to say I have done this, rather than this is a way of being, a fellowship, a communion,
a friend who never leaves, an understanding that transcends our very presence.

We are not on a game show of proving things, or building up badges. We do not make ourselves "worthy" but we
walk in a worthy way, we do not make ourselves saved, but because we are saved we honour the one who
saved us and follow His teaching.

A legalist talks about rules, a person in love does not want to upset the one they love but do the best for all.
A legalist wants a label of Holy, a person who loves Christ just wants to dwell with Him.
I hope you can see the difference, but I know from hard experience many do not.

I don’t get it. What are you saying with this post as it relates to the topic?

 

[PeterJens]

I don’t get it. What are you saying with this post as it relates to the topic?

There are objections to the idea we could ever be called "Holy" on earth.
Some believers hold that we are implicitly sinners and evil, ie. there is a total inability to be acceptable
before the Lord except in a transformed body.

I found this position strange. Not because it may not be from scripture or the Lord, but because the dogmatic
way it was expressed a lot of people would simply object. The key idea against holiness was sexual desire.
Their idea was sexual desire represented original sin in man, and was embedded in our humanity, so until
we were free from this, we could not be regarded as holy.

Now to my way of approaching things, it is not unreasonable to state that desires and passions are something
that is foundational to our existance and experience. The next step is whether matching these emotional
passions with spiritual purity and praise the Lord transforms us. My experience is it does but for others it may not.

So this is rather an experiential reality which leads one to ones position rather than a purely theological position. But it appears there is little to avoid this.