How about amillennialism?

[Hitch]

I have no idea about this last paragraph.

times of the gentiles

what is that? what does it mean. are we in this or not.
who is coming to christ in large numbers?gentile or Jew?

and if jew then explain? if gentile explain what it means by fulfilled.[/QUOTE] I'll guess you want me to defined times of the gentiles.

Well there was the time of Israel. All true worship needed to follow Moses' standard. Jesus came and said ;

Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

A few years later the Council as Jerusalem proclaimed ;


11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Jew and Gentile must come before God at the foot of the cross, and the apostolic citation leaves no doubt that this was prophecied and God's plan from before thefoundation of the world. This is the times of the gentiles. When it is finished there is judegement .

 

[jasoncran]

I dont believe Paul and his churches ever constituted a majority in the first century. Sould we then say that Paul failed? All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.



And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.


Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.

1. 143:11-12 (in Context) Psalm 143 (Whole Chapter)
2. Proverbs 2:22
   But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
3. Really? Do you think martyrs are lost to the Kingdom ? See Psalms quoted above.

1. 
   
   He overpowers us and the lord didnt stop it. YOU know that i mean that.Does he not allows us to die? satan does this in fact what of this in genesis(he shall crush your head and you shall bruise his heel)
   
   or does the lord not control satan per job one and also that verse in 1 corinthians 10:13 kjv
   
   
   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
   
   show me that we have the victory or all living in this time of good life?
   we arent. the devil is still here and i see that the lord isnt reigning on the earth.
   
   in fact its stated in zechariah all nations shall be punished for not going to jerusalem. has this come to pass and FYI this book was written post exel so that is some future event.
   in kjv zech 14:
   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
   
   17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
   
   18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles
   
   
   
   
   you kinda of skipped that

 

[Hitch]

i mention calvin to cavinists a lot as i understand what the basic doctrin of calvin is and as a jew by name i know very well who killed my family and kinsmen

so called christians!
the rcc did it
luther did it
and calvin did it

that is why i have issues with these men. one cant be in heaven and never repented of murder and believe in the perseverance of the saints and yet kill jews. FRUITS must show.

How many of Calvin's books have you read ?

if you save that are saved and and what not and dont show it why should i believe you?

Its common knowlege to the jew that this was done to him in the name of the Lord and why they WONT come to christ so easily.

Jesus said they (the jews of his day) didnt believe him because they didnt believe Moses.

just as the hindu sees Christ as bad because of what the brits did to them in India.

Ghandi said this" Its Christ i like, but not his followers"

I can understand Ghandi's point but he was a liar ,he did not like Christ and did not believe in who Christ is or what he taught.

Having said that i dont easily throw away the works of these men and commit poisoning of the well.

I see them as being well human and we need to look at something that is infallable and not men.

Luther was right as it does say that one needs to have faith in the lord to be saved but that faith must have fruits or its dead

Calvin was right in part because of the idea of predestination.

the bible doesnt show the lord is sovereign by openly stating it. and i'm sorry all means all

the bible also says one can resist grace, hard to do if you dont have a freewill and must repent.

I'll ask it a different way; Have you read any of Calvin's books ?

 

[jasoncran]

times of the gentiles

what is that? what does it mean. are we in this or not.
who is coming to christ in large numbers?gentile or Jew?

and if jew then explain? if gentile explain what it means by fulfilled.

I'll guess you want me to defined times of the gentiles.

Well there was the time of Israel. All true worship needed to follow Moses' standard. Jesus came and said ;

Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

A few years later the Council as Jerusalem proclaimed ;


11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Jew and Gentile must come before God at the foot of the cross, and the apostolic citation leaves no doubt that this was prophecied and God's plan from before thefoundation of the world. This is the times of the gentiles. When it is finished there is judegement .[/QUOTE]

so why would jesus say that in luke and that was before he said that to the apostles?

surely the apostles would have asked him then and there.

why is it the tribalation called the time of jacobs trouble,

and problem reconcile that with what paul said(who was the apostles of the gentiles)

Romans 11: (KJV)
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Isreal is still blind!

paul seems to contradict what you say.

and why would Paul say that about isreal if the lord came already for them alone and theres no need to deal with isreal again.

Please reconcile vs 26!

 

[Hitch]

He overpowers us and the lord didnt stop it. YOU know that i mean that.Does he not allows us to die? satan does this in fact what of this in genesis(he shall crush your head and you shall bruise his heel)

or does the lord not control satan per job one and also that verse in 1 corinthians 10:13 kjv


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

show me that we have the victory or all living in this time of good life?
we arent. the devil is still here and i see that the lord isnt reigning on the earth.

I refer you to Matt 13 where you will see that Jesus teaches a kingdom growing along side the enemy. It is contary of Christ for you to insist otherwise.

in fact its stated in zechariah all nations shall be punished for not going to jerusalem. has this come to pass and FYI this book was written post exel so that is some future event.
in kjv zech 14:
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles




you kinda of skipped that

Oh You must be talking about that wonderful time when the living water flows

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Hmmm Man I d be in good shape if I could just find an NT reference to the 'living waters' and it would be even better if I could quote Jesus himself on that ...I need to look harder...

 

[jasoncran]

How many of Calvin's books have you read ? Jesus said they (the jews of his day) didnt believe him because they didnt believe Moses. I can understand Ghandi's point but he was a liar ,he did not like Christ and did not believe in who Christ is or what he taught.
I'll ask it a different way; Have you read any of Calvin's books ?

irrevalant . he did murder care to disprove that is common knowledge.

If i preach sound doctrine and commit murder and dont repent or do. does that make me above what the bible says.

why do you think that today any theocracy is bad?

what i did find on calvin.

Thousands of people were imprisoned, tortured, and burned to death during Calvin's reign, but he never attended the final Autos de Fe.

"Most savagely of all were punished any offenders whose behavior challenged Calvin's political and spiritual infalliblity. A man who had publicly protested against the reformer's doctrine of predestination was mercilessly flogged at all the crossways of the city and then expelled. A book printer who, in his cups, had railed at Calvin was sentenced to have his tongue perforated with a red-hot iron before being expelled from the city. Jacques Gruet was racked and then executed merely for having called Calvin a hypocrite."
-- "The Right To Heresy" by Stephan Zweig

 

[Hitch]

I'll guess you want me to defined times of the gentiles.

Well there was the time of Israel. All true worship needed to follow Moses' standard. Jesus came and said ;

Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

A few years later the Council as Jerusalem proclaimed ;


11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Jew and Gentile must come before God at the foot of the cross, and the apostolic citation leaves no doubt that this was prophecied and God's plan from before thefoundation of the world. This is the times of the gentiles. When it is finished there is judegement .

so why would jesus say that in luke and that was before he said that to the apostles?

surely the apostles would have asked him then and there.

huh?


why is it the tribalation called the time of jacobs trouble,[/quote] Because it was the destruction of Jerusalem and first century Israel

and problem reconcile that with what paul said(who was the apostles of the gentiles)

Romans 11: (KJV)
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Isreal is still blind!

paul seems to contradict what you say.

and why would Paul say that about isreal if the lord came already for them alone and theres no need to deal with isreal again.

Please reconcile vs 26!

All Israel will be saved by converting to Christ, This is remant who along with the gentile converts make of the holy nation , Get a clue the Delieverer has come and sad as it may be some jews will never recognize him, and no there is no Gospel of Sight , no one gets to see the glorified Lord and then decide to convert. The only means to turn ungodlyness from Jacob is for Jacob to submit to Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

I refer you to Matt 13 where you will see that Jesus teaches a kingdom growing along side the enemy. It is contary of Christ for you to insist otherwise. Oh You must be talking about that wonderful time when the living water flows

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Hmmm Man I d be in good shape if I could just find an NT reference to the 'living waters' and it would be even better if I could quote Jesus himself on that ...I need to look harder...

tell that to the chinese who die for one page of the bible.

so are we in this Kingdom age and where is christ on earth of in heaven. where is this bliss?

i mean that this part right here where it says

isiah 65 kjv

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

are we in this since revalation is done?

to christian outside the west are forced from homes?

are we here right now?

what does a thousand mean? forever?

 

[Hitch]

irrevalant . he did murder care to disprove that is common knowledge.

If i preach sound doctrine and commit murder and dont repent or do. does that make me above what the bible says.

How many of Calvin's book s have you read ?

why do you think that today any theocracy is bad?

I havent spoken to that issue.

what i did find on calvin.

Thousands of people were imprisoned, tortured, and burned to death during Calvin's reign, but he never attended the final Autos de Fe.

"Most savagely of all were punished any offenders whose behavior challenged Calvin's political and spiritual infalliblity. A man who had publicly protested against the reformer's doctrine of predestination was mercilessly flogged at all the crossways of the city and then expelled. A book printer who, in his cups, had railed at Calvin was sentenced to have his tongue perforated with a red-hot iron before being expelled from the city. Jacques Gruet was racked and then executed merely for having called Calvin a hypocrite."
-- "The Right To Heresy" by Stephan Zweig

So you havent read any of Clavins work, You dont know anything of his theology.

 

[jasoncran]

huh?


why is it the tribalation called the time of jacobs trouble,

Because it was the destruction of Jerusalem and first century Israel All Israel will be saved by converting to Christ, This is remant who along with the gentile converts make of the holy nation , Get a clue the Delieverer has come and sad as it may be some jews will never recognize him, and no there is no Gospel of Sight , no one gets to see the glorified Lord and then decide to convert. The only means to turn ungodlyness from Jacob is for Jacob to submit to Christ.[/QUOTE]

lOL. what you admit that. when does that happen. I am a jew and most of family isnt there yet.

and tell me when does this happen as its a nation there not indivuals as jewish nation as a whole is still blind

i can show where that happens in the ot and what jesus said.

if you wish.

 

[jasoncran]

How many of Calvin's book s have you read ? I havent spoken to that issue. So you havent read any of Clavins work, You dont know anything of his theology.

doesnt matter, if took you by force and did that to you would believe that i was saved?

if i killed your mother and made you follow doctrines?

actions speak louder then words.

if a man does that then what does it matter what he says is true or not? i dont hold him above christ at all. is calvin above CHRIST? Did John Calvin die for you on the cross.

Why put so much faith in him?

Paul said be ye imators of me AS i imatate Christ.

 

[Hitch]

tell that to the chinese who die for one page of the bible.

Like most martyrs I 'll wager that they count it a great joy and privelege to suffer for the cause of Christ and gain a many through their blood. Hoping for the day when they too can worship freely

so are we in this Kingdom age and where is christ on earth of in heaven. where is this bliss?

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

i mean that this part right here where it says

isiah 65 kjv

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

are we in this since revalation is done?

to christian outside the west are forced from homes?

are we here right now?

what does a thousand mean? forever?

Well most of the world has seen a great increase in lifespan. I have lieved to see the Berlin Wall go up and come down. But what is more important you and I live in era in which men become new cerations in Christ. But you have problems with the way of the Lord, you should know little by little and the reasom God gave for doing things that way.

As far as a thousand, its rarely used as an exact number, its used like this God owns the cattle on ...

 

[Hitch]

doesnt matter, if took you by force and did that to you would believe that i was saved?

if i killed your mother and made you follow doctrines?

actions speak louder then words.

if a man does that then what does it matter what he says is true or not? i dont hold him above christ at all. is calvin above CHRIST? Did John Calvin die for you on the cross.

Why put so much faith in him?

Paul said be ye imators of me AS i imatate Christ.

LOL I dont care what you think of Calvin . I just pointed out that it is absurd for you to complain of Calvin ism when you have never read any of Calvin's work.

Certainly theres enough things you do know about to occupy your time.

 

[jasoncran]

hmm this is interesting here

all in kjv

zechariah 12:9-10
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

or this luke 13:34-35

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together , as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold , your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you , Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say , Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

now then what is he adressing? the city or the indivuals?

hmm this was said one week before he died.

so when the did the nation of isreal namely Jerusalem say that to him?

in the past? show me any edict from the talmud or sanhedrin stating that.

and uh i am a jew and jew are coming to the lord of my family that are jews. myself,my dad and bro.
and also some friends are jew and saved.

so he is still saving them but as indivuals. all jews cant mean its done in the past. they are still coming to him.

but not as a nation.

 

[jasoncran]

LOL I dont care what you think of Calvin . I just pointed out that it is absurd for you to complain of Calvin ism when you have never read any of Calvin's work.

Certainly theres enough things you do know about to occupy your time.

Of course not, you preach Calvin not the Lord.
and i know more then you think

How do you i know,. you arent the first calvinist here and aint the last.

i ask. thats how i know what you believe.

 

[Hitch]

I didn't mean it as any cheap shot. I have seen the pattern of those who hold to the Return of Christ as having already occurred at 70 AD and even sometime in the 19th century. I thought that is where you were headed. I apologize if my running ahead with a conclusion has offended you.




Many prophecies of Jesus were dual, meaning there was an imminent fulfillment and a distant fulfillment.

And there is one in which Jesus claim that the coming trouble would be a unique event in history.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Men are comdemned to eternal hell for failing to convert. teh first century nation of Israel was cut off for the crime of regicide. We cant murder Messiah, only they could do that and thus wrath was upon them to the uttermost. That crime was only possible when Jesus walked the earth.

 

[Hitch]

Of course not, you preach Calvin not the Lord.
and i know more then you think

How do you i know,. you arent the first calvinist here and aint the last.

i ask. thats how i know what you believe.

Ok I've got about 120 posts . Go an gather all the quotes I have posted of John Calvin and compare then to the quotes I have posted of Jesus Christ.

We will see if you can support you boasts. Good luck.

 

[jasoncran]

Like most martyrs I 'll wager that they count it a great joy and privelege to suffer for the cause of Christ and gain a many through their blood. Hoping for the day when they too can worship freely These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Well most of the world has seen a great increase in lifespan. I have lieved to see the Berlin Wall go up and come down. But what is more important you and I live in era in which men become new cerations in Christ. But you have problems with the way of the Lord, you should know little by little and the reasom God gave for doing things that way.

As far as a thousand, its rarely used as an exact number, its used like this God owns the cattle on ...

really. uh i am old enough to remember the ussr. and also been to war.

DONT insult me i know what God does

let see

i was bi, loved porn, stole and also lied and hated.

set free from this.

now then you call that berlin wall thing as improvement.
Have you actually been to russia or its satelite states.

on a side note the u.s.s.r maynot be back but putin did reenstate the the kgb and why the need for the salt treaty if its all sad and done with them?

we dont have a nuke treaty with our other allies.

 

[jasoncran]

Ok I've got about 120 posts . Go an gather all the quotes I have posted of John Calvin and compare then to the quotes I have posted of Jesus Christ.

We will see if you can support you boasts. Good luck.

you have a filter and you say the you dont believe in freewill.

need i say more?

what does this mean?

whomesover may come let him come.

so if you dont believe in freewill what does that mean? reconcile?

it implies a freewill. and you dont believe in that.

 

[Hitch]

hmm this is interesting here

all in kjv

zechariah 12:9-10
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
or this luke 13:34-35

I like to think a good number converted after witnessing the cross

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together , as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold , your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you , Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say , Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

now then what is he adressing? the city or the indivuals?

hmm this was said one week before he died.

so when the did the nation of isreal namely Jerusalem say that to him?

in the past? show me any edict from the talmud or sanhedrin stating that.

and uh i am a jew and jew are coming to the lord of my family that are jews. myself,my dad and bro.
and also some friends are jew and saved.

so he is still saving them but as indivuals. all jews cant mean its done in the past. they are still coming to him.

but not as a nation.

I dont beleive in a national conversion of modern Israel but Ii dont get your point iether.