How about amillennialism?

[Hitch]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand

Literal or symbolic?

 

[Alabaster]

Literal or symbolic?

There is a lot of both. It takes a careful, prayerful reading and study, more than just once, to gain a full perspective of what Revelation shows us.

 

[jasoncran]

Literal or symbolic?

why DO YOU believe that the virgin mary(till she had her children by joseph) actually was the mother of the Lord.AS that hasnt ever happened again.
Nor outside of the bible do we see the dead brought back from life(i'm talking dead three days and also decayed to the level skeletonising)

one can easily make that part of the Gospel a literary device. I've seen on this forum a time or two.

 

[Hitch]

There is a lot of both. It takes a careful, prayerful reading and study, more than just once, to gain a full perspective of what Revelation shows us.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand

This is only three verses

 

[Hitch]

why DO YOU believe that the virgin mary(till she had her children by joseph) actually was the mother of the Lord.AS that hasnt ever happened again.
Nor outside of the bible do we see the dead brought back from life(i'm talking dead three days and also decayed to the level skeletonising)

one can easily make that part of the Gospel a literary device. I've seen on this forum a time or two.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand


I asked wether this is ltliteral or symbolic. In your response its plain that you were careful not to address the subject.

But at least in this case we both know why LOL

And its no surprize why you have trouble with the plainest three verses in the entire Apocalypse.

 

[jasoncran]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand


I asked wether this is lireral or symbolic. In your response its plain that you were careful not to address the subject.

But at least in this case we both know whyLOL >

i asked that because in all your verses you fail to look at the how the jews wrote things. when they look at poetry that wrote in the way it was pronoucanted.

why is that psalms is sung and not by looking at them from english or any greek.

the hebrews see them by the way its written.

i wonder if its the case with genesis,(no, literal) isiah(hmm)

you only look at the verese the lord says , so the lord didnt say these thing in revalation about the resurrection of the dead?

in revalation yes or no (in 20-22)

if you only take a look a jesus alone then kindly throw out the books after genesis as they dont seem to fit what you say

a thousand cant be a literary device only.

it has and end thus not eternal. eternity is just that.

and also cavin, since you have such a calvinstic filter. i see this in the few posts.

calvin commited murder, and was into the idea of persverance of the saints.

now then how is it possible to be ordained to good works and not have freewill and kill men and violate what the apostle john says?

if a man hates his fellow men how dwelleth the love of God in him?

for if he cant love that which is seeable then how can he love that which is unseen?

hmm. answer its quite revalant to this as he was the one along with luther that pushed along the hatred of all things jewish and disconnected the faith from the roots.

 

[Alabaster]

This is only three verses

The three verses are to be taken literally, as it is John speaking plainly of the following prophetic revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

now my answer is the same as alabaster.

she is most correct as i have a new bible with a commentary that i'm devling into that has greek and hebrew words.

a dake kjv study bible.

i am neither lutheran/arianism or calvinisitic

i am into sotorierology and read the bible as is and adjust when convinced properly to change my pov on end times. or esle where.

in fact my question my most revalant as in genesis is literal and also symbolic

care to look that account of isaac being sacrificied and God sparing him

its symobolic of God giving men his inherentance and in John 3:16 the word only begotton is used?
no why is that? hmm

to the jew that meant something. the Father gave his son something. what is that? its more then men. why its the earth?

and its mentioned in REVALATION. THAT scroll that has the seven vial judgments that the angels asked who is able to open the seals and John weeps alludes to that.

and the location where isaac is to be killed is also where the Lord dies. Jerusalem

a literal act with much symbols to it.

just like the cross is seen in that act and also in the passover. the blood on the door lentels.

 

[Hitch]

The three verses are to be taken literally, as it is John speaking plainly of the following prophetic revelation of Jesus Christ.

Then of course John was correct and those things did take place in a time frame realtive to first century believers resonably defined as 'soon' or 'at hand' .


Steps back to see if they're are any new reasons an otherwise honest person will say when the bible says 'soon' it really means thousands of years. I cant imagine theres one I havent heard ,but things happen...

 

[jasoncran]

Then of course John was correct and those things did take place ina time frame realtive to first century believers.

then what is purpose of the beliver according to you outside of saving souls?

are we to reedeem govt and also should do as the dominiionist says. take over all instutions and redeem them and usher in the return of christ.

and if its rome then what of that problem of the devil? he's still here, and doing quite well at winning souls to hell.
we are in the minority

and just because we have mega churches , ask or look at the amount(ratio) who does the labor.

less then 10% is often the case

i helped a larger church(1000 members)it was only about 30 men who did the work that was need when things men could only do.

so if we look at fruits of those that say the believe it should be much higher then that.

i have touched the givers and those that serve in some capapicity(teaching, singing and so forth)

thus why i mentioned that few part to you.

if jesus is lord he must be lord of all.
as in all of our life. and i'm guilty of depriving him of time and money.

 

[Alabaster]

Then of course John was correct and those things did take place in a time frame realtive to first century believers resonably defined as 'soon' or 'at hand' .


Steps back to see if they're are any new reasons an otherwise honest person will say when the bible says 'soon' it really means thousands of years. I cant imagine theres one I havent heard ,but things happen...

I suppose by that, that you also believe that the Church has already experienced the Second Coming?

If not, why all the baloney about the concept of 'soon'?

 

[Hitch]

then what is purpose of the beliver according to you outside of saving souls?

Glorifying God in history- fellowship with God and the church in history [

are we to reedeem govt and also should do as the dominiionist says. take over all instutions and redeem them and usher in the return of christ.

I've read a good deal of what can fairly be described as 'dominionist' literature. I dont know of any one teaching that who says, or ever said, that any of it would have any impact wrt the return of Christ. I'll bet you havent iether. Got any exmples ?

and if its rome then what of that problem of the devil? he's still here, and doing quite well at winning souls to hell.
we are in the minority

I dont know what you mean by Rome but regarding our minority status, I've asked you before ;Since when does God require a majority ?

and just because we have mega churches , ask or look at the amount(ratio) who does the labor.

less then 10% is often the case

i helped a larger church(1000 members)it was only about 30 men who did the work that was need when things men could only do.

so if we look at fruits of those that say the believe it should be much higher then that.

Well I cant help your dissatifaction with the abilities and minstry of the Holy Spirit.

i have touched the givers and those that serve in some capapicity(teaching, singing and so forth)

thus why i mentioned that few part to you.

if jesus is lord he must be lord of all.
as in all of our life. and i'm guilty of depriving him of time and money.

I tried to aswer your questions but I dont see how they relate to any particular position on Rev 1;1-3.

 

[Hitch]

I suppose by that, that you also believe that the Church has already experienced the Second Coming?

Ya know Allie thats a cheap shot beneath you and this forum. I'm certain you've read at least some of my posts enough to know better, and you personally responded to the thread in which I quoted John six regarding the resurrection at the last day. Im sad you would stoop this low.

If not, why all the baloney about the concept of 'soon'?

Gee If my chruch got a personal letter about a vision the last living apostle had and it turned out my church was actually named in it and it opened saying the things in it were just about to happen ,,, I'd beleive it. And apply it to to he body of the message. But then I beleive what Jesus said about the resurrection too.

 

[jasoncran]

Glorifyuing God in history- fellowship with God and teh chriuch in history [ I've read a good deal of what can fairly be described as 'dominionist' literature. I dont know of any one teaching that who says, or ever said, that any of it would have any impact wrt the return of Christ. I'll bet you havent iether. Got any exmples ? I dont know what you mean by Rome but regarding our minority status, I've asked you before ;Since when does God require a majority ? Well I cant help your dissatifaction with the abilities and minstry of the Holy Spirit.
I tried to aswer your questions but I dont see how they relate to any particular position on Rev 1;1-3.

SO ONLY Revalation is those three.

No. its you that have the problem. i do believe the the lord said few would be saved.

and i showed that few is relative.

10% of trillion(10^9/.01)= 100 billion correct but that is FEWER is relative to whole person . More have died and in hell them saved given that amount

odd for a calvinist not realise that the only a few will be saved.

could you number without a machine how large a billion is?

and also God is patient but it wears out and he does come and end the time of the man being in charge.

and heres the one thing you didnt address.

luke 21:24
:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

what does that mean to you. IT cant be ignored as the Lord said it.

Gentile. means non-jew
so if i a jew(i am born again, but i a jew by name) hear that i would assume properly that the lord is going to mean those that arent jews thus either other nations or the dogs such greeks and romans and others (syro-phoenicians) and samartians.

 

[jasoncran]

is the minority the one in charge and running things. are we christians that are in america having it made and also is the country of america saying we want your pov to run the show. or is the opposite.

the opposite.

we should be talking the country back but what does the lord say?

something about the end time regarding this.

He never said we have it all or come out on top. In fact in your view he saves us from the enemy.

I dont see the world being friendly to us much more

in fact its says that in revalation that satan(the dragon) kills the saints.

hardly a victory there.

Do we have power of the enemy, yes but the lord allows things and he will allow the enemy to win if need be.

 

[Hitch]

SO ONLY Revalation is those three.

No. its you that have the problem. i do believe the the lord said few would be saved.

and i showed that few is relative.

10% of trillion(10^9/.01)= 100 billion correct but that is FEWER is relative to whole person . More have died and in hell them saved given that amount

odd for a calvinist not realise that the only a few will be saved.

You say a lot about Calvin . How many of his books have you read?

could you number without a machine how large a billion is?

and also God is patient but it wears out and he does come and end the time of the man being in charge.

and heres the one thing you didnt address.

luke 21:24
:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Might refer to the destruction or it might be looking forward to the return

21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Heavenly 'signs' usually refert to great powers , like government ,nations taht sor tof thing.

what does that mean to you. IT cant be ignored as the Lord said it.

Gentile. means non-jew
so if i a jew(i am born again, but i a jew by name) hear that i would assume properly that the lord is going to mean those that arent jews thus either other nations or the dogs such greeks and romans and others (syro-phoenicians) and samartians.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea about this last paragraph.

 

[Alabaster]

Ya know Allie thats a cheap shot beneath you and this forum. I'm certain you've read at least some of my posts enough to know better, and you personally responded to the thread in which I quoted John six regarding the resurrection at the last day. Im sad you would stoop this low.

I didn't mean it as any cheap shot. I have seen the pattern of those who hold to the Return of Christ as having already occurred at 70 AD and even sometime in the 19th century. I thought that is where you were headed. I apologize if my running ahead with a conclusion has offended you.

Gee If my chruch got a personal letter about a vision the last living apostle had and it turned out my church was actually named in it and it opened saying the things in it were just about to happen ,,, I'd beleive it. And apply it to to he body of the message. But then I beleive what Jesus said about the resurrection too.

Many prophecies of Jesus were dual, meaning there was an imminent fulfillment and a distant fulfillment.

 

[jasoncran]

You say a lot about Calvin . How many of his books have you read? Might refer to the destruction or it might be looking forward to the return Heavenly 'signs' usually refert to great powers , like government ,nations taht sor tof thing.

Gentile. means non-jew
so if i a jew(i am born again, but i a jew by name) hear that i would assume properly that the lord is going to mean those that arent jews thus either other nations or the dogs such greeks and romans and others (syro-phoenicians) and samartians.

I have no idea about this last paragraph.[/QUOTE]

times of the gentiles

what is that? what does it mean. are we in this or not.
who is coming to christ in large numbers?gentile or Jew?

and if jew then explain? if gentile explain what it means by fulfilled.

 

[Hitch]

is the minority the one in charge and running things. are we christians that are in america having it made and also is the country of america saying we want your pov to run the show. or is the opposite.

I dont believe Paul and his churches ever constituted a majority in the first century. Sould we then say that Paul failed?

the opposite.

we should be talking the country back but what does the lord say?

something about the end time regarding this.

He never said we have it all or come out on top. In fact in your view he saves us from the enemy.

All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.



And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.


Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.

1. 143:11-12 (in Context) Psalm 143 (Whole Chapter)
2. Proverbs 2:22
   But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

I dont see the world being friendly to us much more

in fact its says that in revalation that satan(the dragon) kills the saints.

hardly a victory there.

Really? Do you think martyrs are lost to the Kingdom ?

Do we have power of the enemy, yes but the lord allows things and he will allow the enemy to win if need be.

See Psalms quoted above.

 

[jasoncran]

i mention calvin to cavinists a lot as i understand what the basic doctrin of calvin is and as a jew by name i know very well who killed my family and kinsmen

so called christians!
the rcc did it
luther did it
and calvin did it

that is why i have issues with these men. one cant be in heaven and never repented of murder and believe in the perseverance of the saints and yet kill jews. FRUITS must show.

if you save that are saved and and what not and dont show it why should i believe you?

Its common knowlege to the jew that this was done to him in the name of the Lord and why they WONT come to christ so easily.

just as the hindu sees Christ as bad because of what the brits did to them in India.

Ghandi said this" Its Christ i like, but not his followers"

Having said that i dont easily throw away the works of these men and commit poisoning of the well.

I see them as being well human and we need to look at something that is infallable and not men.

Luther was right as it does say that one needs to have faith in the lord to be saved but that faith must have fruits or its dead

Calvin was right in part because of the idea of predestination.

the bible doesnt show the lord is sovereign by openly stating it. and i'm sorry all means all

the bible also says one can resist grace, hard to do if you dont have a freewill and must repent.