How Are We Made Right With God?

[francisdesales]

But please understand that when the Bible speaks of the righteousness of God, it's speaking of God incarnate, from birth to physical death on the cross, living perfectly sinless and perfectly righteous.

The righteousness of God did not need to await the Incarnation, my friend. God was righteous in the Old Testament, as well. This righteousness is not something that is "transfered" to our "account". we are not in a merely legal relationship, we are in a familial relationship. A father can overlook the failings of their children - to a degree. There is no need to balance the credits and debits, such an idea is quite foreign to the OT.

You're speaking of the fruit of the Spirit. That is after the fact of justification. That's an evidence, a manifestation of one who is already in Christ and justified.

You forget that justification is not just a one-time event. Abraham, for example, was justified at least three separate times (Romans, Hebrews, James) before God. Different tests presented Abraham an opportunity to place his trust in God, his internal faith AND his external actions accepted by God and ABRAHAM is called JUST (note, none of these authors replace Abraham's just status with Jesus' perfect righteousness).

The moment we come to faith and are placed into the Body of Christ, we are declared righteous. Other wise we would still be under the Law. That was Pauls point in Philippians 3:9.

"To be "under the law" means to be under the condemnation of the law because of our violation of it. Romans 3:19 tells us that the sentence of the law against "them who are under the law" is that they are "guilty before God." Romans 3 emphasizes that all the world is guilty and therefore under the law, because all have sinned and transgressed the law. But Christ came "to redeem them that were under the law" (Galatians 4:5). He came to redeem us, not from the obligation of the law, but "from the curse of the law" (Galatians 3:13). Paying our penalty, He pardons our transgression, and places us under grace."
http://www.pathlights.com/theselastdays ... klet_E.htm

I agree there is "being under the Law" and "being under Grace". Those under the Law require perfection, whether it is their own perfection, or someone for them. Under Grace, God doesn't require perfection. He views or judges us as a father judges a child. Because of the work of Christ, His CONTINUED intercessions, the Father CAN and DOES overlook our shortcomings. God's mercy is shown forth. This is entirely a gift of the Father.

Jesus fulfilled the Law for us.

Jesus instituted a New Covenant, and those in a covenant have responsibilities. Jesus' fulfillment of the Law is applicable to the entire human race, so that God and "Adam" have a new relationship, one of Grace mentioned above. But you appear to imply that this means we are no longer given responsibilities to follow Law. Christ gave us a NEW Law to follow - We are bound to it and are responsible to fulfill it.

"Did the tax collector from Luke generate his own feelings of sorrow?"

You're missing the point, both looked to God. Both prayed to God. One said "Lord, Lord...didn't I". The other looked not to Himself, but to God's mercy.

No, I am not missing the point. They both looked to God and one was found just. Was this a result of JESUS' righteousness? It was the result of the tax collector's response to God. I have cited and could cite many more Scriptures that say what God desires from us. "To rend our hearts". This simple but SERIOUS act of repentance is ALL that God requires from us. Not human (Jesus) sacrifice. Looking to God's mercy does not require that God "cover" the tax colllector with a foreign righteousness, that idea is unknown to Jews. The man is asking for mercy, not legal fiction.

Where is this in scriptures? (God's perfect demands)

...Several Scriptural citations...

Not a single one addresses my question. "Where does God require absolute perfection FROM MAN, before God considers a repentant man just???"

God requires a repentant heart, moved by the Holy Spirit. When God sees legitimate and heart-felt repentance, He ALWAYS forgives and calls that one just. Always has and always will. No need to invent a false doctrine unheard of in Scriptures or the first 1500 years of Christianity. God is merciful and just and doesn't require something we cannot give Him!

 

[Drew]

Drew insists Paul is addressing the Jews whenever works are mentioned,...

Do you mean like, say, here?

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about.....

Silly old Drew, imagining that this is a reference to Law of Moses. But, wait, what do we have here, just a few breaths down in the chapter:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?

Silly old Drew, imagining that circumcision has something to do with the "Law of Moses".

Now to be serious: the fact that Paul is concerned with making the point Abraham received his "righteouness" before he was circumcized is smoking gun evidence that the "works" in 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses.

Like circumcision, the Law of Moses marked the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. It is clear beyond doubt that Paul is arguing that the Gentile is in the family as well.

And, of course, another way of saying this is "Abraham was not justified by doing the (Jew only) Law of Moses."

I am entirely in the right to see Romans 4:2 as a refernce to the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

How does one become right with God?

Before answering this question, we must first answer two other questions. First, on what basis will we be judged, and, second, who will judge us? The answer to the first question, the basis of judgment, the Bible makes all too clear: "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Law who will be declared righteous" (Romans. 2:4). According to the Bible, we will be judged by God's Law, and only those who obey God's law will be declared right with Him.

In the Bible there is the story of a rich young ruler who asked Jesus Christ, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" Jesus tells this young man that if he wishes eternal life, then he must keep the law; then Jesus rigidly applies what it means to keep the law so that even Jesus' disciples were astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" (Mt. 19.16-26). The standard God will use on the coming day of judgment is His Law, perfectly kept. Our Lord Himself says that we are to "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mt. 5.48). And, as James points out, "For whosoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all" (James. 2.10).

This author is correct at one point. As Romans 2 makes all too clear, ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works.

But there are a number of problems with what is then asserted. There is no actual Biblical evidence that perfect obedience to "Law" - whatever "Law" turns out to mean - is required in order to pass the Romans 2 judgement. Yes, we are exhorted to be perfect. Does that mean imperfection bars us from salvation. Of course not - let's some actual Biblical matrial to support this idea that "it is impossible to be saved by good works since you need perfect obedience to be saved". This a popular idea, but support for it is notoriously absent from the Bible.

And yes, it is indeed true that if you violate the Law of Moses at one point, you are indeed guilty of breaking all the items in the Law. But, and one needs to be clear about this: An assertion that someone has broken all the elements of the Law of Moses does not imply that this person is an especially wicked person or that they are not otherwise "acceptable" for salvation..

Paul means what he says in Romans 2 and Romans 8 - ultimate salvation is based on good works. The fact that we are ehxorted to be perfect does not contradict that. And, interestingly enough, neither does the bit about being guilty of breaking the whole Law.

 

[Mysteryman]

Drew insists Paul is addressing the Jews whenever works are mentioned,...

Do you mean like, say, here?

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about.....

Silly old Drew, imagining that this is a reference to Law of Moses. But, wait, what do we have here, just a few breaths down in the chapter:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?

Silly old Drew, imagining that circumcision has something to do with the "Law of Moses".

Now to be serious: the fact that Paul is concerned with making the point Abraham received his "righteouness" before he was circumcized is smoking gun evidence that the "works" in 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses.

Like circumcision, the Law of Moses marked the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. It is clear beyond doubt that Paul is arguing that the Gentile is in the family as well.

And, of course, another way of saying this is "Abraham was not justified by doing the (Jew only) Law of Moses."

I am entirely in the right to see Romans 4:2 as a refernce to the Law of Moses.

Hi

You would be in error, if that is what you think ! Romans 4:2 is not talking about the Law of Moses !!

The Law was not given to Abraham ! The reason it is called the Law of Moses, is because the law was given to Moses. The Law had not even been given as of yet !

 

[Drew]

You would be in error, if that is what you think ! Romans 4:2 is not talking about the Law of Moses !!

The Law was not given to Abraham ! The reason it is called the Law of Moses, is because the law was given to Moses. The Law had not even been given as of yet !

I have addressed this particular objection issue several times already. Here is the argument again:

Circumcision, while perhaps technically not part of Torah (its initiation preceded Sinai by > 400 years, I think), is the hallmark of membership in the nation of Israel. And Abraham was indeed circumcized. As one see if one reads on in Romans 4, the issue is not "good works" righteousness, but righteousness being limited to Jews and Jews only.

14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham

This, of course, is yet another of the many problems with thinking that Romans 4:2 is about "good works" - the rest of the chapter shows that the issue on Paul's mind is whether God's grace is limited to Jews. This is yet another reason why Romans 4:2 is clearly an allusion to the Torah - the national charter of Israel.

So when Paul talks about Abraham not being justified by works, the context of Romans 4, not to mention that of Romans 3, forces us to understand that Paul is denying that being Jewish is enough to be saved. The fact that the Law of Moses comes 400 years is beside the point. The Law – and circumcision which preceded it by 400 years (or whatever) are the ethnic markers of the Jew. And Paul’s argument here is that salvation is not limited to Jews.

The only reason this idea that 4:2 is about “good works†is that the context is ignored – the context is clear: the issue here is not good works, but the relation between national identity and justification.

 

[glorydaz]

by the way, the book of Romans is not the "whole Gospel message". That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. The Words of Christ, quite frankly, are the Gospel message. Paul's letter to the Romans is written for the sake of Jews proud in their having the written code, as if that alone makes them righteous. He deflates that idea especially in Romans 2-3. But this is not the "Gospel" message, my friend. Frankly, it is quite secondary.

It's only secondary to you, Joe, because you obviously don't know what the Gospel is. Paul lines out the entire plan of salvation, and you think he's only writing to the Jews. The entire letter is to all mankind...you can see that if you read the beginning. Salvation is by grace through faith, and any attempt to make it say something other than what it does is error.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi

You would be in error, if that is what you think ! Romans 4:2 is not talking about the Law of Moses !!

The Law was not given to Abraham ! The reason it is called the Law of Moses, is because the law was given to Moses. The Law had not even been given as of yet !

On this we agree.

Drew has to turn it into the law of Moses or his entire theory would fall flat on it's face.
He does the same with Eph. 2, James 2, and Romans 2. If Romans 4 falls, they all go.

Abraham had whereof to glory in his works...but not before God. This portion of scripture must be twisted in order for a works-based salvation to stand. It's under attack big time. Only the enemy has such a high stake here. It robs Christ of His glory and turns salvation into an earned reward for man.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Then he goes on....Are these promises for the circumcised only....as if those promises are unable to stand alone without the Law of Moses holding them up.

 

[Dave...]

The bible NOWHERE tells us that God requires anything other than just ASKING for forgiveness with a humble heart.

Take it one step further. "The bible NOWHERE tells us that God requires anything other than just ASKING for forgiveness with a humble heart. [to be saved]" ---[to be saved] added by Dave

But why is that? Because all man is guilty before God. But what is impossible with man is possible with God. Jesus did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves. He became our sin, because the penalty for sin is death, hence the cross. And He conquered death when He rose again in three days. When we become one with Him, this is not only the means by which we are born again, that being--by this union, we identify with His death and resurrection in such a way that we are spiritually transformed, but also this is the only means by which we can be justified before God, by His imputed righteousness, that is, as He became our sin and suffered God's justice on our behalf, we become His righteousness when wecome into union with Him by grace, through faith. If our righteousness was good enough to save, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die on the cross for us in the first place. We are saved by grace, it is given to us as a gift, through faith, not of works, not of ourselves.

But for the unsaved, He demands that which man cannot give, perfect righteousness and perfect sinlessness. To those who trust in their works, they are trusting in a merit that has already failed. And by trusting in their own works, as a whole or in part, they have then rejected the righteousness of God by faith, Jesus' righteousness. this is why God had to come as a man. To suffer God's justice in our place. He also lived, as incarnate, a perfectly sinless and perfectly righteous life. If you refer back to the scripture that I've been posting and consider these things. If you trust in your own works to justify yourself before God, you have then rejected the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. If you do Trust in Jesus Christ alone by faith alone, then Christ Jesus is the end of the Law for righteousness for you because you believe.

You want me to continue?

Which brings us back to an earlier question you asked.

God demands perfect righteousness. God demands perfect sinlessness.

where is this in Scriptures???

God doesn't demand perfection. He desires a pentitent person.

Where in the Bible do we see the most profound example of God's justice, and His love and mercy, all manifesting themselves simultaneously? This is a very important question.

Dave

 

[Drew]

On this we agree.

Drew has to turn it into the law of Moses or his entire theory would fall flat on it's face.
He does the same with Eph. 2, James 2, and Romans 2. If Romans 4 falls, they all go.

The weight of the evidence is clear: Romans 4:2 is indeed a statement that Abraham was not justified by his Jewishness. It is not a statement about good works. The context shows this, as has already been argued in great detail.

This portion of scripture must be twisted in order for a works-based salvation to stand. It's under attack big time. Only the enemy has such a high stake here.

I know that it may be frustrating to be shown that the context of Romans 3 and 4 shows that the issue of the inclusion of the Gentiles, and not good works, is on Paul's mind. Do you think that your suggestion that we who actually pay attention to context are in league with the devil is one you really want to make?

 

[JamesG]

.
Glorydaz

““No, I just see no need to nit-pick every time I see it posted as such.

And, I didn't see any profit in side-tracking this thread ,which has great merit on it's own.â€â€


So you don’t think that the matter of being Justified or made righteous by the faith of Christ is important to the subject of how we are made right with God?

JamesG

 

[Dave...]

The righteousness of God is now revealed *apart* from the Law, being witnessed by it. Jesus did not come to remove the law, but to fulfill--and--establish it.

Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

Read it again. Who's righteousness?

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Drew]

Read it again. Who's righteousness?

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:22 has nothing to do with us "getting" the righteousness of God when we believe.

Paul is here describing the covenant faithfulness of God - God's righteous behaviour in the sense of God's "covenant-keeping" behaviour.

This verse, by itself, might indeed be read as suggesting imputation of God’s righteousness to the believer. And it also might be read as I have suggested.

However, the overall context shows that Paul is here referring to righteousness of God in the sense of God's covenant faithfulness. And this is not being imputed or ascribed to us. Paul is simply saying this: Jesus has fulfilled the covenant, thereby demonstrating God's righteousness, and we all benefit as result".

What is Paul talking about at the beginning of Romans 3? He is talking about the Jews not being faithful to their covenantal obligation to be light to world:

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?

So Paul raises the very question that he will answer in the verse you seem to think is talking about a righteousness that we get - God will indeed remain faithful to the covenant. So in verses 21 and 22 we get the answer:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Now a comment about translation. The phrase "faith in Jesus Christ" could equally well have been translated "faith of Jesus Christ", just as many translations have indeed done.

If that is done, verse 21 and 22 are the perfectly sensible answer to the covenantal questions raised earlier in the chapter - God, through Jesus, has been righteous. Paul's is talking about what God and Jesus have done, not a status we get.

If the “imputation†take on what this verse means is correct, the reader is still waiting for the details of the answer to the question about whether God will be faithful to the covenant even though the Jews have dropped the ball.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to do a holistic exegesis. It is precisely by considering the overall structure of Paul's argument - in this case, understanding that verses 21 and 22 are the perfect answer to the covenant faithfulness questions raised earlier in the chapter - that we resolves texts like Romans 3:22 which, by itself, is indeed ambiguous.

 

[Dave...]

Drew, I thought that my explinations were clear, but you seemed not to be understanding. I was going to pass over the whole post instead of repeating myself, but I though this question needed to be answered at the end of it.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.[/color]

Dave, please tell us, what do you make of this text?

The fruit of a tree is a manifestation of what the tree already is. We're talking evidence, not merit.

"...Our obedience does not merit salvation, of course. But genuine conversion to Christ inevitably produces obedience. Therefore, while obedience is never a condition for salvation, it is nonetheless always salvation's fruit. That is why Scripture speaks of obedience as an essential evidence of true Christianity: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:4). "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (3:10). "He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God" (3 Jn. 11)...."

As a side note, this is what Catholics believe. Macarthur explains what the Catholic church believes and teaches. They usually never come right out and say these things openly and clearly themselves.

"I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with it—you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous." http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ECTDOC.HTM

Anyways, evidences.... If the evidences are absent, what does that say about our claims of a saving faith (The point James made)? It's not that we are earning justification by our works, it's whether or not we are giving evidence of Jesus Christ manifesting Himself in us. If we are not manifesting Christ in our lives, then we didn't lose anything but the illusion that we had a true saving faith... and look, I'm not saying we need to be perfect as Christians, but we do need to show evidence of a changed life/heart. And this is where Francis gets it wrong. The reason we don't need to be perfect is because we are already reckoned as perfectly righteous because of what Jesus did. To say that our lives, which are now under grace, are somehow earning our justification is to completely misunderstand the simple truths of the Gospel. We don't need to be perfect because Jesus was perfect for us. We don't need to suffer God's wrath for our sin because Jesus suffered God's wrath for us. We become the righteousness of God in Him just as He became our sin and took on God's justice on our behalf. A true faith is evidenced by works, as James tells us, but this is after the fact of our justification.

When Jesus told us that if we are His, we will obey His commandments, He's not teaching us that obeying the commandments will help to justify us before God, rather, He's teaching us that if we are saved, and thus already justified, that we will begin to manifest Him in our lives.

What we need to be careful of doing is putting the cart before the horse, or, works before justification simply because works are an evidence of faith, thus forcing justification to be a process that depends on our works. Our works will be an indicator of whether or not our profession of faith is genuine. But it is only by our initial God given faith that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. How do we know if our faith is real? How do we know if we are already justified by the blood of Christ on the cross? If Jesus is manifesting Himself in our lives. If those things are absent, then we need to question if our faith is genuine, and not question whether or not we have earned enough with God to be justified. Scripture is clear in this matter, we all failed that test already. There - are - no mulligan's. There - are - no do over's. Once a person sins one time, THAT'S IT, he has failed his one chance to be justified by Himself. and that's why "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Dave

 

[Dave...]

However, the overall context shows that Paul is here referring to righteousness of God in the sense of God's covenant faithfulness.

And that IS the righteousness of God. "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,...to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness

Not your righteousness. Not even the righteousness of God demonstrated through you as the fruit of the Spirit, but the Biblical definition of the righteousness of God, that is God incarnate, perfectly righteous by His actions alone. To all and on all (not through all) who believe. That He might be just ----- and the justifier ------ of the one who has faith in Jesus. That's imputed!

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

No, I just see no need to nit-pick every time I see it posted as such.

And, I didn't see any profit in side-tracking this thread ,which has great merit on it's own.

So you don’t think that the matter of being Justified or made righteous by the faith of Christ is important to the subject of how we are made right with God?

JamesG

I was the first post giving an amen to the OP.

Personally, I think it's very important, but, as I stated, I did not want to sidetrack this thread...lest I be accused of doing so by those who adamantly oppose Christ having faith. I draw bees like a chunk of honey whenever I mention the faith of Christ, and I wanted this thread to have a good start before I said too much.

 

[Drew]

I'll ask you again, Drew, Who's righteousness? Your answer will determine if the discussion between me and you will continue or not. Manifested when? Do I need to remind you of your claim that I replied to?

I am not sure what claim you are referring to, so, yes, please do remind me.

As I have argued, this text is about the righteousness of God. But, and please not this, my argument asserts that the righteousness of God is not something with which we are imputed, but rather is a term used to describe God's own righteousnes - the righteousnessness He demonstrates in fulfilling His covenantal promises.

 

[Drew]

Dave, please tell us, what do you make of this text?

The fruit of a tree is a manifestation of what the tree already is. We're talking evidence, not merit.

That is simply not true to the language of the text. Note that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Not according to something else:


6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Your reading simply reworks the language of the text. Well, if you are going to do that, any text can be made to mean anything.

 

[Dave...]

I'll ask you again, Drew, Who's righteousness? Your answer will determine if the discussion between me and you will continue or not. Manifested when? Do I need to remind you of your claim that I replied to?

I am not sure what claim you are referring to, so, yes, please do remind me.

As I have argued, this text is about the righteousness of God. But, and please not this, my argument asserts that the righteousness of God is not something with which we are imputed, but rather is a term used to describe God's own righteousnes - the righteousnessness He demonstrates in fulfilling His covenantal promises.

Then when I asked, wh's righteousness, you answered this way.

However, the overall context shows that Paul is here referring to righteousness of God in the sense of God's covenant faithfulness.

And that IS the righteousness of God. "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,...to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness

Not your righteousness. Not even the righteousness of God demonstrated through you as the fruit of the Spirit, but the Biblical definition of the righteousness of God, that is God incarnate, perfectly righteous by His actions alone. To all and on all (not through all) who believe. That He might be just ----- and the justifier ------ of the one who has faith in Jesus. That's imputed!

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[/quote]

 

[Drew]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Dave, you are ignoring my argument.

The very nature of my argument challenges this particular translation with its "faith in Jesus" rendering. My case is that the more proper rendering is this one from the NET:

namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe

This text can be read as an assertion that Jesus has been faithful to the covenant and we all get a status of righteousness as a result - something I have never denied. But it does not read as an ascription, or imputation, of Christ's righteousness to the believer.

 

[Drew]

Drew! This was your claim, Drew. This is what I was replying to.

I

ndeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions

I simply pointed out that the righteousness of God as defined by scripture in ragards to justification has nothing to do with the Fruit of the Spirit. That was your reply to my posting Romans 3:21-26. How do you explain that?

I never posted that stuff and /or I am unsure what you are referring to.

Let me restate. I accept everything Paul writes. So, as I have clearly stated, I do agree with we are "ascribed / imputed" a state of righteousness at the point of belief.

But I also believe him when he says we get eternal life based on good works. There is a way to reconcile this as I have already pointed out:

The believer is declared to be righteous at the point of belief in anticipation of the sure, positive, outcome of the future good works judgement. How can such a present declaration anticipate the future outcome of the works judgement? Through the transforming work of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8).