How Are We Made Right With God?

[Dave...]

Dave, please tell us, what do you make of this text?

The fruit of a tree is a manifestation of what the tree already is. We're talking evidence, not merit.

That is simply not true to the language of the text. Note that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Not according to something else:


6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Your reading simply reworks the language of the text. Well, if you are going to do that, any text can be made to mean anything.

thatnks for that honest detailed curtious reply to my post!

 

[Dave...]

Drew! This was your claim, Drew. This is what I was replying to.

I

ndeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions

I simply pointed out that the righteousness of God as defined by scripture in ragards to justification has nothing to do with the Fruit of the Spirit. That was your reply to my posting Romans 3:21-26. How do you explain that?

I never posted that stuff and /or I am unsure what you are referring to.

Let me restate. I accept everything Paul writes. So, as I have clearly stated, I do agree with we are "ascribed / imputed" a state of righteousness at the point of belief.

But I also believe him when he says we get eternal life based on good works. There is a way to reconcile this as I have already pointed out:

The believer is declared to be righteous at the point of belief in anticipation of the sure, positive, outcome of the future good works judgement. How can such a present declaration anticipate the future outcome of the works judgement? Through the transforming work of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8).

You're right, the first was francis. That doesn't make it any better. Where do you get this initial and end justifiation from? The bible talks about justified, not being justified.

And as I have pointed out, it's a finished righteousness. it is finished! That's what Jesus said. We are justified the moment we first believe. We cannot add to that to make it better.

 

[Drew]

thatnks for that honest detailed curtious reply to my post!

I am not sure what you are saying. Do you deny that Romans 2:6-7 states that eternal life is granted according to what we have done? I doubt that any english teacher would deny this?

Are you denying it? Why is the word "according to" in there if we are granted eternal life based on something other than what we have done?

 

[Drew]

And as I have pointed out, it's a finished righteousness. it is finished! That's what Jesus said. We are justified the moment we first believe. We cannot add to that to make it better.

Your statement that "we are justified at the moment we first believe" is incomplete. Here is just one statement of a future justification:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous

 

[Dave...]

thatnks for that honest detailed curtious reply to my post!

I am not sure what you are saying. Do you deny that Romans 2:6-7 states that eternal life is granted according to what we have done? I doubt that any english teacher would deny this?

Are you denying it? Why is the word "according to" in there if we are granted eternal life based on something other than what we have done?

What does this say Drew? Who is he speaking to in ragards to your verse 6? Unbelievers.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:

Didn't we go through this already? Unbelievers will be judged by their works for justification. All will fail God's perfect standards.

I'll post it again, concerning believers.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 3:22 has nothing to do with us "getting" the righteousness of God when we believe.

Paul is here describing the covenant faithfulness of God - God's righteous behaviour in the sense of God's "covenant-keeping" behaviour.

This verse, by itself, might indeed be read as suggesting imputation of God’s righteousness to the believer. And it also might be read as I have suggested.

However, the overall context shows that Paul is here referring to righteousness of God in the sense of God's covenant faithfulness. And this is not being imputed or ascribed to us. Paul is simply saying this: Jesus has fulfilled the covenant, thereby demonstrating God's righteousness, and we all benefit as result".

What is Paul talking about at the beginning of Romans 3? He is talking about the Jews not being faithful to their covenantal obligation to be light to world:
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?

So Paul raises the very question that he will answer in the verse you seem to think is talking about a righteousness that we get - God will indeed remain faithful to the covenant. So in verses 21 and 22 we get the answer:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

No, the righteousness of God is not covenant faithfulness.

The "advantage" the Jews had was the stone law. The law was manifest in all men by their conscience.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The righteousness of God is made manifest by Jesus Christ. He who was witnessed by the law and prophets.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Now a comment about translation. The phrase "faith in Jesus Christ" could equally well have been translated "faith of Jesus Christ", just as many translations have indeed done.

If that is done, verse 21 and 22 are the perfectly sensible answer to the covenantal questions raised earlier in the chapter - God, through Jesus, has been righteous. Paul's is talking about what God and Jesus have done, not a status we get.

If the “imputation†take on what this verse means is correct, the reader is still waiting for the details of the answer to the question about whether God will be faithful to the covenant even though the Jews have dropped the ball.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to do a holistic exegesis. It is precisely by considering the overall structure of Paul's argument - in this case, understanding that verses 21 and 22 are the perfect answer to the covenant faithfulness questions raised earlier in the chapter - that we resolves texts like Romans 3:22 which, by itself, is indeed ambiguous.

The faith of Christ was His obedience unto death. His work was redemption. We're talking sin here, not promises. Our sin was placed on Him and His righteousness was placed on us. The cross transcends all covenants. To take this portion of scripture and claim it has to do with anything but the work of the cross is incorrect. All the law and prophets speak of the redemption of mankind through the cross. The righteousness of God is manifest in Jesus Christ...not His covenants with man. Jesus is ever the focus, for He, Himself, is the Promise.

 

[Drew]

Where do you get this initial and end justifiation from? The bible talks about justified, not being justified.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous

One of several examples where Paul speaks of a future justification.

 

[Dave...]

And as I have pointed out, it's a finished righteousness. It is finished! That's what Jesus said. We are justified the moment we first believe. We cannot add to that to make it better.

Your statement that "we are justified at the moment we first believe" is incomplete. Here is just one statement of a future justification:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous

You're reading mans merit into that statement. Especially considering the context that would need to be ignored (Romans 3;20, 4:1-25; 1:17; 3:24; 4:1-25). It's simply stating an obvious truth. James clarifies the meaning for us, only his argument was about mans claims before other men.

Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)

Those who only hear do not evidence a person who is saved. It's not the merit. Jesus is.

It's like 1 John 5:1a. Some people claim that verse proves an order, but it's simply stating simultaneous truths. One cannot be true without the other, that is "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God". In fact, that's a great passage that applies here.

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This is how we know that we are already the children of God, already born of God. And the children of God are all already justified by Christ Jesus. That's a deep passage. Anyways...

Romans 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.†The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Dave

 

[glorydaz]

Anyways, evidences.... If the evidences are absent, what does that say about our claims of a saving faith (The point James made)? It's not that we are earning justification by our works, it's whether or not we are giving evidence of Jesus Christ manifesting Himself in us. If we are not manifesting Christ in our lives, then we didn't lose anything but the illusion that we had a true saving faith... and look, I'm not saying we need to be perfect as Christians, but we do need to show evidence of a changed life/heart. And this is where Francis gets it wrong. The reason we don't need to be perfect is because we are already reckoned as perfectly righteous because of what Jesus did. To say that our lives, which are now under grace, are somehow earning our justification is to completely misunderstand the simple truths of the Gospel. We don't need to be perfect because Jesus was perfect for us. We don't need to suffer God's wrath for our sin because Jesus suffered God's wrath for us. We become the righteousness of God in Him just as He became our sin and took on God's justice on our behalf. A true faith is evidenced by works, as James tells us, but this is after the fact of our justification.

When Jesus told us that if we are His, we will obey His commandments, He's not teaching us that obeying the commandments will help to justify us before God, rather, He's teaching us that if we are saved, and thus already justified, that we will begin to manifest Him in our lives.

What we need to be careful of doing is putting the cart before the horse, or, works before justification simply because works are an evidence of faith, thus forcing justification to be a process that depends on our works. Our works will be an indicator of whether or not our profession of faith is genuine. But it is only by our initial God given faith that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. How do we know if our faith is real? How do we know if we are already justified by the blood of Christ on the cross? If Jesus is manifesting Himself in our lives. If those things are absent, then we need to question if our faith is genuine, and not question whether or not we have earned enough with God to be justified. Scripture is clear in this matter, we all failed that test already. There - are - no mulligan's. There - are - no do over's. Once a person sins one time, THAT'S IT, he has failed his one chance to be justified by Himself. and that's why "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Dave

Amen....You are right on the money with this post, and that "initial God given faith" which justifies and imputes righteousness is the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.

 

[glorydaz]

I am not sure what you are saying. Do you deny that Romans 2:6-7 states that eternal life is granted according to what we have done? I doubt that any english teacher would deny this?

Are you denying it? Why is the word "according to" in there if we are granted eternal life based on something other than what we have done?

What does this say Drew? Who is he speaking to in ragards to your verse 6? Unbelievers.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:

Didn't we go through this already? Unbelievers will be judged by their works for justification. All will fail God's perfect standards.

I'll post it again, concerning believers.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Exactly, Dave. Paul is speaking to unbelievers in Romans 2. They seek after eternal life by doing good deeds, but Paul has already made it clear that all men sin and come short of the glory of God. One sin is not covered by a life of good deeds. They are treasuring up wrath unto the day of judgment.

 

[Dave...]

Thanks for your participation in this thread G. I'm just now starting on page five. I don't want to miss anything that needs to be replied to by Francis or Drew. Though some of it has been dealt with and I don't feel the replies justify a response. I can't keep up. lol

Dave

 

[glorydaz]

James clarifies the meaning for us, only his argument was about mans claims before other men.

Praise the Lord someone else sees this.

James is speaking of justification before men when he says the following...

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We are justified before God when we believe...He sees our heart.
We are justified before men by our works...they can't see our heart, but know us by our fruit.

... for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Dead faith has never been given life...there is no Spirit so there is no fruit.
Which is why faith without works is dead.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks for your participation in this thread G. I'm just now starting on page five. I don't want to miss anything that needs to be replied to by Francis or Drew. Though some of it has been dealt with and I don't feel the replies justify a response. I can't keep up. lol

Dave

It's a dizzying pace...I've been down this road a few times myself. :yes

I've even used the "cart before the horse" analogy which fits so well here.
Good deeds are a result of salvation. It's a question of cause and effect.

Anyway, I just want you to know that you're doing a great job of preaching the Gospel..it will never return void.

 

[Free]

I think James 2 is pretty clear that there is an association between both good works and faith with regards to justification. There is a reason Luther didn't care for James' epistle.

 

[Dave...]

The righteousness of God did not need to await the Incarnation, my friend.

For us it did (Hebrews 10:1-18) and for a multitude of reasons. Until there was an actuall atonement, God had passed over the sins previously committed (Romans 21-26). There was not yet a Spiritual immersion, called the baptism with the Holy spirit, which places us into the Body of Christ, which is how we are not only born again, but also how we are credited with His righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21), known as the righteousness of God. Also, the agent of that spiritual 'immersion', or 'placing into', was not yet given. That being the holy Spirit. Pentecost was the birth of the Church for this reason. Until that time, there was no means to be in union with Christ, nor was there yet atonement made for sin.

You forget that justification is not just a one-time event. Abraham, for example, was justified at least three separate times (Romans, Hebrews, James) before God. Different tests presented Abraham an opportunity to place his trust in God, his internal faith AND his external actions accepted by God and ABRAHAM is called JUST (note, none of these authors replace Abraham's just status with Jesus' perfect righteousness).

Paul answered your question in Romans 4. Concerning James, he was speaking of mans claims of justification before other men (James 1:22). Vs. 2:23 says it all. Likewise Hebrews follows the same line of thought, not the merit, but the reality of our justifiacation.

Ephes. 4:4-6 There is only one hope, not many

I agree there is "being under the Law" and "being under Grace". Those under the Law require perfection, whether it is their own perfection, or someone for them. Under Grace, God doesn't require perfection. He views or judges us as a father judges a child. Because of the work of Christ, His CONTINUED intercessions, the Father CAN and DOES overlook our shortcomings. God's mercy is shown forth. This is entirely a gift of the Father.

And the only 'Someone' who could do that for them and us is Jesus Christ (Corinthians 3:11-15) , that's why He is our foundation. He alone is our justification.

Jesus instituted a New Covenant, and those in a covenant have responsibilities. Jesus' fulfillment of the Law is applicable to the entire human race, so that God and "Adam" have a new relationship, one of Grace mentioned above. But you appear to imply that this means we are no longer given responsibilities to follow Law. Christ gave us a NEW Law to follow - We are bound to it and are responsible to fulfill it.

Responsibilities yes. Agreed. As long as you don't mean that we are adding to our merit or righteousness in regards to justification by doing so, then I agree. Bound to the Law sounds a little stronger than that. It sounds an awful lot like being under the Law.

No, I am not missing the point. They both looked to God and one was found just. Was this a result of JESUS' righteousness?

Yes! The man who trusted in His own righteousness was not justified. He trusted in himself, and as everyone who does that will fail, lhe failed. The one who looked on to God's mercy alone, even as a sinner, even as one who didn't do all the righteous acts of obedience that the other did, was justified, because he trusted in God.

I'm out of time


Dave

 

[glorydaz]

I think James 2 is pretty clear that there is an association between both good works and faith with regards to justification. There is a reason Luther didn't care for James' epistle.

There is an association...just not according to our justification before God.
Good works are the result of faith...the outward manifestation of faith.

Notice "as pertaining to the flesh" here in Romans 4...let's change that for a moment to "according to James".

According to James, if Abraham is justified by his works, he has whereof to glory (before men), but not before God. Men can only know his faith is "alive" by looking at his works. Men can not "see" faith, but they can see the works faith produces.

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[francisdesales]

by the way, the book of Romans is not the "whole Gospel message". That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. The Words of Christ, quite frankly, are the Gospel message. Paul's letter to the Romans is written for the sake of Jews proud in their having the written code, as if that alone makes them righteous. He deflates that idea especially in Romans 2-3. But this is not the "Gospel" message, my friend. Frankly, it is quite secondary.

It's only secondary to you, Joe, because you obviously don't know what the Gospel is. Paul lines out the entire plan of salvation, and you think he's only writing to the Jews. The entire letter is to all mankind...you can see that if you read the beginning. Salvation is by grace through faith, and any attempt to make it say something other than what it does is error.

GD,

What I find disconcerting, and par for the course, is that people like you have stripped down the Bible to Romans and a few verses sprinkled here and there. What does Jesus say about justification, being seeing right and just in God's Eyes? Didn't Jesus come here to redeem man and united US with the Father??? What does Jesus say? What does John say? James? Peter??? And frankly, Paul doesn't back up your idea, either, although SOME do confuse Paul, to their DESTRUCTION!

That is quite an interesting concept, that Christians read Paul TO THEIR DESTRUCTION. According to the Word of God, people who misinterpret Paul, as yourself, are heading down the wrong road, rather than the narrow one...

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16


Out of love, we will keep trying, but our patience is not everlasting, my brother. Don't simply ignore the questions you don't like. Don't become scared or panic that your faith will fall because of these inconsistencies you are noting, no doubt. Seek the truth THROUGHOUT the NT - don't be lulled into the idea that you are infallible and cannot possibly be wrong.

 

[francisdesales]

Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

Read it again. Who's righteousness?

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Are you aware of the rules of the English language? When the bible says "God is righteous", it doesn't mean that it is mutually exclusive, so that NOTHING or NO ONE ELSE can be righteous. Sola fideists do the same thing with salvation by faith, and adding alone, when NOTHING is said about whether anything else is salvific, and thus, putting "alone" to the end of that phrase is a lack of understanding how language works.

Or would you prefer that I post the many instances that men are called righteous and just, throughout the bible?

 

[francisdesales]

The bible NOWHERE tells us that God requires anything other than just ASKING for forgiveness with a humble heart.

Take it one step further. "The bible NOWHERE tells us that God requires anything other than just ASKING for forgiveness with a humble heart. [to be saved]" ---[to be saved] added by Dave

So we can just forget about the necessity of imputed righteousness that is alien to us. Great, it is a dead end street, anyway, since it is nowhere recorded in Scriptures about Christ's righteousness applied to us...

THe point I make here is that God does not require perfection - which you were not able to argue against. Thus, the whole "alien righteousness" is a contrived effort, one that is unncessary and quite false, when we find that God CALLS and MAKES us so. If God MAKES us righteous, AND there is no need for absolute perfection for those under Grace, the whole argument of yours is moot.

Where in the Bible do we see the most profound example of God's justice, and His love and mercy, all manifesting themselves simultaneously? This is a very important question.

Dave

Dave, the OT is FULL of stories of God's saving love, ALONG WITH SIMULTANEOUS justice dolled out upon the enemies of Israel - and then later, upon Israel itself. I'm reading the minor prophets now and studying them, and I can't help but see this over and over again. Maybe you should read them again, also.

Regards

 

[stranger]

francisdesales

Out of love, we will keep trying, but our patience is not everlasting, my brother. Don't simply ignore the questions you don't like. Don't become scared or panic that your faith will fall because of these inconsistencies you are noting, no doubt. Seek the truth THROUGHOUT the NT - don't be lulled into the idea that you are infallible and cannot possibly be wrong.

francis,

While even God's patience has a limit -- seen to run out in the OT with His people expelled from the land, and in another sense 'everlasting' -- we all have to use our wisely, time has never been on man's side!