How Are We Made Right With God?

[francisdesales]

Where do you get this initial and end justifiation from? The bible talks about justified, not being justified.

And as I have pointed out, it's a finished righteousness. it is finished! That's what Jesus said. We are justified the moment we first believe. We cannot add to that to make it better.

From the Bible. Are we to believe that man is justified in God's eyes only one time? God sees a repentant man and he is ALWAYS just? Clearly, OT and NT does not support that idea. The righteous can fall away and become wicked, and their former righteousness is not taken into account. Abraham was justified AT LEAST THREE TIMES, according to the writers of the NT. David was just before his sin of adultery, and again, after his repentance. Obviously, he was not just while commiting greivious sins! That is ridiculous. We are being justified, sanctified. So says the Bible.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Exactly, Dave. Paul is speaking to unbelievers in Romans 2. They seek after eternal life by doing good deeds, but Paul has already made it clear that all men sin and come short of the glory of God. One sin is not covered by a life of good deeds. They are treasuring up wrath unto the day of judgment.

You need to read the Scriptures without the "works v faith" dichotomy you set up. Paul is certainly talking to believers, specifically, Jewish believers who were confident in their Law. The point is that some without the written law WERE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, based on what they did. Any unbiased reader will see that. The set of rhetorical questions in Rom 2,3 and later on point to the "audience" - the Jew who thought he had a step up on the Gentiles and God would see them differently.

Kind of like those silly people who think they will stand in front of some OTHER judgment seat to receive "lesser rewards" of being cast out of heaven...

 

[francisdesales]

We are justified before God when we believe...He sees our heart.
We are justified before men by our works...they can't see our heart, but know us by our fruit.

what is your problem?

Abraham was clearly justified at the altar, where God said "now I know".

You are again wrong. Wrong last week, and wrong again this week.

FAITH, FAITH without something, is dead. Thus, faith alone is anti-Scriptural.

You preach a false gospel.

 

[Drew]

What does this say Drew? Who is he speaking to in ragards to your verse 6? Unbelievers.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:

You are doing what gd and others are doing - simply not following the rules of language. This is the kind of argument that cannot be won.

No person competent in the task of reading and interpreting english would not conclude that, in verses 6 and following, Paul has turned his attention from the unbeliever which, yes, he had been addressing, to a treatment that includes the believer. This is simply denial, Dave. You and gd have a "perfect out" - simply deny what the text actually says:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I don't know how to engage such a blatant violation of the laws of language. To suggest that Paul is not here making a statement about the giving of eternal life to people based on what they have done is to engage in the most bald, blatant, refusal to follow the rules of english composition that is possible.

This is like saying that the following sentence is not a promise that those who get more than 50 will pass:

The teacher "will give to each student according to what he has done." 7To those who get more than 50 %, he will give a passing grade.

You need to honour the conventions of basic language. When you, and others, say that Paul is talking about unbelievers here, you turn him into a confused source of nonsense.

No rational person would say this of unbelievers:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Free]

I think James 2 is pretty clear that there is an association between both good works and faith with regards to justification. There is a reason Luther didn't care for James' epistle.

There is an association...just not according to our justification before God.
Good works are the result of faith...the outward manifestation of faith.

Notice "as pertaining to the flesh" here in Romans 4...let's change that for a moment to "according to James".

According to James, if Abraham is justified by his works, he has whereof to glory (before men), but not before God. Men can only know his faith is "alive" by looking at his works. Men can not "see" faith, but they can see the works faith produces.

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Don't bring Romans 4 into it to change what James is saying. James is clearly saying that works justified Abraham before God. Saying that James is means "good works are the result of faith," is to interpret this passage through preconceived ideas in Evangelicalism and ignores what James is actually saying. It is true that true faith should result in good works but that is not what James is saying:

Jamse 1:20-26, 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. (ESV)

 

[Drew]

Exactly, Dave. Paul is speaking to unbelievers in Romans 2. They seek after eternal life by doing good deeds, but Paul has already made it clear that all men sin and come short of the glory of God. One sin is not covered by a life of good deeds. They are treasuring up wrath unto the day of judgment.

Whether intentionally or not, you are saying things that are so obviously wrong that you have "disarmed" those of us who are trying to correct you. When someone says something that is so obviously incorrect, it becomes very hard to know where to start to correct them. To say that Paul is speaking to unbelievers to the exclusion of believers, is frankly, not remotely possible.

And yet you claim it. Look gd, look at all the statements about people getting eternal life and being justified. I am really curious gd - how do you deal with such statements? Do you simply "wish them away"? Do you think that there was a translation error? Do you think Paul does not mean what he says?

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

This is a fascinating study in denial - the text clearly has Paul bouncing back and forth between believers - those will be given eternal life, justified, and so - and unbelievers - those who will get wrath.

And yet you somehow don't "see" these allusions to the fate of the believer, even though they are there in plain english.

 

[glorydaz]

GD, Out of love, we will keep trying, but our patience is not everlasting, my brother. Don't simply ignore the questions you don't like. Don't become scared or panic that your faith will fall because of these inconsistencies you are noting, no doubt. Seek the truth THROUGHOUT the NT - don't be lulled into the idea that you are infallible and cannot possibly be wrong.

LOL That's about the most fleshly bit of drivel I've heard in many a year....and filled with self-righteousness, too. Ya gotta love it. It puts me in mind of this verse...... :biglaugh

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 

[Drew]

We are justified before God when we believe...He sees our heart.

How, then do you explain this statement from Paul that clearly refers to a future justification:

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Paul wrote this gd - he actually uttered these words and his scribe wrote them down. So please - an account of how are only justified at the point of belief is not good enough. In particular, it does not explaim why Paul wrote what he wrote in this text.

So please, stick with your assertion that justification is fully accomplished at the point of belief.

But, do please tell us why Paul refers to justfication as a future event based on how a person has lived.

 

[Drew]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This text is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

 

[Free]

GD, Out of love, we will keep trying, but our patience is not everlasting, my brother. Don't simply ignore the questions you don't like. Don't become scared or panic that your faith will fall because of these inconsistencies you are noting, no doubt. Seek the truth THROUGHOUT the NT - don't be lulled into the idea that you are infallible and cannot possibly be wrong.

LOL That's about the most fleshly bit of drivel I've heard in many a year....and filled with self-righteousness, too. Ya gotta love it. It puts me in mind of this verse...... :biglaugh

And your response isn't? :gah

Let's address the points and not the person.

 

[glorydaz]

What I find disconcerting, and par for the course, is that people like you have stripped down the Bible to Romans and a few verses sprinkled here and there. What does Jesus say about justification, being seeing right and just in God's Eyes? Didn't Jesus come here to redeem man and united US with the Father??? What does Jesus say? What does John say? James? Peter??? And frankly, Paul doesn't back up your idea, either, although SOME do confuse Paul, to their DESTRUCTION!

Let's just look at the Bible, shall we?

Well, the wicked won't be justified.

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

We can't justify ourselves or say we're "perfect".

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

These justify themselves before men, but what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination to God.
James is speaking of these same people when he talks about dead faith.

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

We aren't justified by deeds of the law.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The gospel was preached to Abraham...justification came through faith.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

In God's sight shall no man living be justified. Jesus' death was necessary for our justification.

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

By Him, all that BELIEVE are justified from all things...notice the "forgiveness of SINS".

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ah, justified by grace...

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justified by the faith of Christ because Christ lives in me....If righteousness came by any other means than Christ Himself, grace would be frustrated. It's the grace of God by which men are saved....to say man is justified by anything other than Jesus Christ is a denial of God's grace in sending His Son to die for our sins.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Justification comes by the righteousness of ONE...not the righteousness of many.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[glorydaz]

GD, Out of love, we will keep trying, but our patience is not everlasting, my brother. Don't simply ignore the questions you don't like. Don't become scared or panic that your faith will fall because of these inconsistencies you are noting, no doubt. Seek the truth THROUGHOUT the NT - don't be lulled into the idea that you are infallible and cannot possibly be wrong.

LOL That's about the most fleshly bit of drivel I've heard in many a year....and filled with self-righteousness, too. Ya gotta love it. It puts me in mind of this verse...... :biglaugh

And your response isn't? :gah

Let's address the points and not the person.

Uh, I believe I responded appropriately, and truthfully... considering what was said.
I could have pretended like I was fooled by his words, I guess, but I do hate to do that.

 

[glorydaz]

We are justified before God when we believe...He sees our heart.

How, then do you explain this statement from Paul that clearly refers to a future justification:

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Paul wrote this gd - he actually uttered these words and his scribe wrote them down. So please - an account of how are only justified at the point of belief is not good enough. In particular, it does not explaim why Paul wrote what he wrote in this text.

So please, stick with your assertion that justification is fully accomplished at the point of belief.

But, do please tell us why Paul refers to justfication as a future event based on how a person has lived.

Paul certainly did write those words..but he didn't write them in a vacuum, Drew. No one can "do" the whole law of God, and if you fail in one point you fail in all. Jesus is the only "doer" of the law, we are declared righteous when we believe...which is Paul's point. No man can be justified by obeying the law...we're justified by faith as Paul makes quite clear.

 

[glorydaz]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This text is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

No, Drew...it is not directed at "church leaders".
We are all "workers" in the kingdom of God.
We are all to spread the good news of salvation.

Neither he that planteth ..nor he that watereth, but God that gives the increase. We are all ONE body of Christ...we are all labourers together, and every man shall receive his own reward. We are all God's building...

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

 

[glorydaz]

But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

Just as the serpent was lifted up....Jesus must be lifted up. Those who "look upon" Him will live.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Free]

LOL That's about the most fleshly bit of drivel I've heard in many a year....and filled with self-righteousness, too.

And your response isn't? :gah

Let's address the points and not the person.

Uh, I believe I responded appropriately, and truthfully... considering what was said.
I could have pretended like I was fooled by his words, I guess, but I do hate to do that.

You responded truthfully, that's for certain, and it's very telling. But appropriately? No. I think it sad that someone's seemingly genuine concern for another should be called a "fleshly bit of drivel...and filled with self-righteousness." Be careful of judging someone's statement as being such when yours could easily be judged the same.

 

[glorydaz]

And your response isn't? :gah

Let's address the points and not the person.

Uh, I believe I responded appropriately, and truthfully... considering what was said.
I could have pretended like I was fooled by his words, I guess, but I do hate to do that.

You responded truthfully, that's for certain, and it's very telling. But appropriately? No. I think it sad that someone's seemingly genuine concern for another should be called a "fleshly bit of drivel...and filled with self-righteousness." Be careful of judging someone's statement as being such when yours could easily be judged the same.

Ah, you got it right with the word, "seemingly". It was not genuine concern...not in the least. Joe was being patronizing in the extreme. I laughed at his efforts to rile me with his condescending comments, and found it amusing. But "genuine concern"...no way. Not in a million years.

And, I have to add, I'm judged constantly no matter what I say. If I have to pussyfoot around Joe and Drew when they hold nothing back, it would take more time than I'm willing to give. I would have to read and reread every word I wrote several times. One thing I've learned...if you give Joe and inch, he takes a mile. I prefer not to give him that inch. I don't believe my comment came anywhere near what I've received, but I can just not respond to him if that's what you're asking.

 

[Drew]

Paul certainly did write those words..but he didn't write them in a vacuum, Drew. No one can "do" the whole law of God, and if you fail in one point you fail in all. Jesus is the only "doer" of the law, we are declared righteous when we believe...which is Paul's point. No man can be justified by obeying the law...we're justified by faith as Paul makes quite clear.

You are, of course, saying that Paul has told us something that is true of zero persons.

You are free to make that argument - that when, at multiple points in Romans 2, Paul speaks of people being justified by "good works" (or doing "the law"), then he must be speaking about something that will happen to no one.

I trust you realize how odd that is. You have Paul repeatedly talking about people being given eternal life (or being justified) based on what they do and you believe Paul thinks that actually zero persons will be justified in that manner.

Let me try that approach. Hmmmm. Well, when Paul says we are justified by faith, I am going to claim, following your approach gd, that actually zero persons are in the category of those who are justfied by faith.

Case closed.

Gee, that was easy......

 

[Dave...]

But there are a number of problems with what is then asserted. There is no actual Biblical evidence that perfect obedience to "Law" - whatever "Law" turns out to mean - is required in order to pass the Romans 2 judgement. Yes, we are exhorted to be perfect. Does that mean imperfection bars us from salvation?

Yes.

And yes, it is indeed true that if you violate the Law of Moses at one point, you are indeed guilty of breaking all the items in the Law.

I'm glad that you agree here. Lets see what's behind that statement.

But, and one needs to be clear about this: An assertion that someone has broken all the elements of the Law of Moses does not imply that this person is an especially wicked person or that they are not otherwise "acceptable" for salvation..

Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ (read the whole chapter)

Galatains 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

God is always Just and never unjust (Deuteronomy 32:4; Genesis 18:25)

God, who cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

"The soul that sinneth shall die" and, "the wages of sin is death" (Exodus 18:4; Romans 6:23).

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)



Enter Jesus, God incarnate...

Whose righteous act and obedience are we made righteous by and justified by? The answer is right here in Romans 5...

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Jesus, God incarnate was born under the Law...

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus, God incarnate came for the purpose of fulfilling the Law...

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

He had to come as a man, both fully man and fully God.

Hebrews 2:17-18 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

9:8,11-14 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing....But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

10:1-20 1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’â€


Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them †(which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.†He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,†then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.†Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Read this. It's just scripture so you can pan through it quickly. This is very important.

Justification before God
http://www.bible-topics.com/Justificati ... e-God.html

Dave

 

[Drew]

No, Drew...it is not directed at "church leaders".
We are all "workers" in the kingdom of God.
We are all to spread the good news of salvation.

No gd, the text says what it says. Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

Just tell me the verse please.....

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Your approach to this text is typical of how you interpret texts. You do not pay careful attention to the details of what Paul actually writes. What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.

In verse 9 - and you simply cannot afford to acknoweldge this because it is devastating to your argument - Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. You cannot acknowledge this and I am confident that, as with other texts, that cannot work with your view, you will simply dismiss it, or find some implausible way to integrate it into your view - perhaps saying that there are zero persons in the "you" category.

In any event, the argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is gd!!! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

Now you, of course, have to ignore these details - the clear marking out of a "we" who are leaders - and try to make the text speak about all believers.

Well, that is simply not what the text actually says. But, of course, as per many of your other positions, you do not seem to feel obligated to honour Paul in the details of what he writes.