Drew
Member
Sorry, I do not interact with trolls....Mysteryman said:Oh my my Drew, how old are you ? Did you "hear" Paul say that ?
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Sorry, I do not interact with trolls....Mysteryman said:Oh my my Drew, how old are you ? Did you "hear" Paul say that ?
Yes, the good works we do through the Spirit are what justifies us at the Romans 2 judgement. Paul means what he says in Romans 2:6-7.glorydaz said:Drew said:So, of course, neither of the above texts is problematic for the position that fds and I are advancing - we both agree that, the good works that will justify a man are the work of the Spirit. And we agree that Paul means what he says in Romans 8 - the believer will be transformed so that, on the last day, that person will indeed not be "wicked".
So, these good works you do, through the Spirit, are what justifies you before God?
Were you delivered for your offenses, and raised by those good works of the Spirit?
Romans 4:25 said:Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Drew said:Dave, why don't you accept the text as written? If I showed the following text to a thousand people with training in english, and without religious bias, they would all agree. Paul is making a statement about how believers get life if, repeat if, they walk in the Spirit. So why do you think you do not need to honour the dictates of english composition:Dave... said:Drew....Yes, he's speaking to Christians comparing the flesh to the Spirit, or what it means to be a true believer. But unlike you Drew, I'm not trying to make a case out of the negative as being for Christians too. So your argument here is really pointless. We all agree that we all should be obedient, but the motives of that obedience is what can make it legalism.
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
[quote="Dave...":261yxnsu]Lets see more context...
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you
Doesn't that say it all? Those who are born again will always overcome (1 John 5:1-5). Those who are of the flesh cannot be Christ have put on Christ.
francisdesales said:Without taking into account what James actually SAYS!!! Of all the possible means by which a man could be justified WITHOUT an audience of men, the sacrifice of Isaac would be it.
James states that Abraham was just AT THE ALTAR, not after he bragged about it to his family and friends. It was GOD who "now knows" that Abraham was just. This is an interesting comment, considering Abraham was already considered just in Genesis 12 and 15.
Unfortunately for you, because you have painted yourself into a corner with the false idea that man is justified ONLY ONCE - while the Bible clearly states otherwise, you must deny or invent that James mentions ANOTHER time when Abraham was justified.
Once you remove this restriction of thinking on how justification works, how James and Paul interact will make much more sense.
Romans 4:20-22 said:He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Gen. 22:14-17 said:And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Drew said:I am being true to the text in its detail, while you are glossing the details to make the text say something that you want it to say. I will make the following argument that I made to gd about this text. Now please respond to the content of this argument:
Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task?
What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.
In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.
If we honour what Paul actually writes, we seen that this text is what it is - a treatment directed at church leaders. If this were not otherwise clear, Paul goes to the trouble of clearly marking out the "we" who the builders and the "you" who is the church. And what Paul goes on to say about escaping with salvation is clearly about the "we" who are leaders.
You, I suggest, have ignored this distinction, and believe that Paul is making some general statement about people cannot be saved by good works.
That is simply not how the text reads. And this is the deeper issue in all these discussions - who is following what Paul actually writes, as contrasted with what we may have wanted him to write.
What seeds are you planting with your teachings, Drew? Do you escape accountability because you don't have a Reverend in front of your name? Are you building on the foundation, or are you adding a wing to the building of your own making. What Paul is actually speaking about here are false teachers that come in and teach another Gospel. It's convenient you think you won't be taken to task for claiming Paul is saying something he isn't.1 Corinthians 3:9 said:For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Drew said:Gd, it must be nice to feel free to "pick and choose" which Pauline statements you accept and which you reject. Yes Romans says people will perish without the law. But you conveniently ignore what Paul goes on to say - that, indeed, there will be those who are declared righteous based on, yes, what they do.glorydaz said:It looks to me like you've missed the point Paul has made since chapter one. Since all men have sinned, they will all be subject to the judgment. The gentiles didn't have the law, but they will "perish without the law" because of their sin.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Paul has said this already in chapter 2. That is, he has already stated that people are given eternal life based on, yes, what they do.
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Gd, you keep making the "context" argument - suggesting that Paul cannot mean what he was written in Romans 2 because of other things you think he says.
And yet, neither you, nor Dave, nor MM, have ever come with an explanation of why Paul would say something that he doesn't mean.
francisdesales said:Dave... said:Conveniently, you left out the "verse" that I posted along with the link. So editing out the verse provided, and then claiming "not one verse" is dishonest. Why do you go to such obvious dishonest extremes?
I think you need to re-read it. The verse doesn't say that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to anyone. I am not being "dishonest". Nor do your other verses state Christ's righteousness is applied to me/you or anyone else.
francisdesales said:Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.
Drew said:The Bible never teaches this. Show us one text that supports this idea that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.glorydaz said:Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness
Romans 4:22-25 said:And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Drew said:Dave, why don't you accept the text as written? If I showed the following text to a thousand people with training in english, and without religious bias, they would all agree. Paul is making a statement about how believers get life if, repeat if, they walk in the Spirit. So why do you think you do not need to honour the dictates of english composition:
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
This what is so odd about this discussion. Both you and gd, if not others, seem to think that it is acceptable to rework the text of an english statement into something it is clearly not saying. Yes, Paul talks about the state of being controlled by the sinful nature. And yes he talks about the believer has left that state behind and is now "in the Spirit" (verse 9).
I think the fundamental issue is this: You (and gd) do not feel constrained to buy into what Paul actually, actually, actually writes.
Drew said:I am being true to the text in its detail, while you are glossing the details to make the text say something that you want it to say. I will make the following argument that I made to gd about this text. Now please respond to the content of this argument:Dave... said:This is getting, well, out of hand. We call that grasping at straws, Drew.
Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task?
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.
In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.
If we honour what Paul actually writes, we seen that this text is what it is - a treatment directed at church leaders. If this were not otherwise clear, Paul goes to the trouble of clearly marking out the "we" who the builders and the "you" who is the church. And what Paul goes on to say about escaping with salvation is clearly about the "we" who are leaders.
You, I suggest, have ignored this distinction, and believe that Paul is making some general statement about people cannot be saved by good works.
That is simply not how the text reads. And this is the deeper issue in all these discussions - who is following what Paul actually writes, as contrasted with what we may have wanted him to write.
glorydaz said:Drew said:The Bible never teaches this. Show us one text that supports this idea that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.glorydaz said:Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness
Of course the Bible teaches it, Drew. It's all about Christ's righteousness...not the righteousness of man. His righteousness being accounted to us is the bedrock of salvation. When the gospel is preached, the righteousness of Christ is revealed. The first sign of a person being regenerated is he becomes convinced of his unrighteousness, and the need for a perfect righteousness. The gospel declares to them the source of that perfect righteousness, which is the person and work of Christ alone. Jeremiah says His name shall be called "Our righteousness".
Philippians 3:9 ....And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Romans 5:18-21...Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:21...For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Romans 3:26,27...To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded.
Romans 10:3-4....For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 Corinthians 1:30....But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
And, of course, this one...I'm not sure how you can expain away this being Christ's righteousness imputed unto us. Is this just some righteousness God pulls out of His hat? Jesus was raised for our justification...He is the only Just One. It's all about the cross, Drew...His work, His righteousness...none other will do.
Romans 4:22-25 said:And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Drew said:Again, it is fascinating how you seem to simply "let pass" all those texts which speak of future salvation and future justification (by good works)
glorydaz said:We don't need to be perfect, nor can we be.
That is why we place the blood over the door post when we believe.
Abel's sacrifices did not cover his sin, Joe...nor do yours.
glorydaz said:That's why Jesus had to come.
glorydaz said:When we're IN CHRIST, whose righteousness does God see?
glorydaz said:You are once again claiming Christ's righteousness as your own.
glorydaz said:It's interesting that you scoff at the word positional, yet you claim it with your words. Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours.
glorydaz said:That does not mean it's your personal righteousness....in spite of how loudly you proclaim it to be so.
Dave... said:francisdesales said:Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.
This is how you defined Romans 3:21-26. I simply called you on it. Your reply is more...never mind. I'll leave it to the readers to decide for themselves.
Dave... said:francisdesales said:I think you need to re-read it. The verse doesn't say that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to anyone. I am not being "dishonest". Nor do your other verses state Christ's righteousness is applied to me/you or anyone else.
You left this verse out for a reason when you quoted me. Lets see what that reason is.
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Here's the chapter if anyone wants to see the context. It's quite clear what was imputed. Just go back to verse 13. In fact, one needs only go back to verse 22.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
glorydaz said:Drew said:Again, it is fascinating how you seem to simply "let pass" all those texts which speak of future salvation and future justification (by good works)
If you feel you need to wait until some future day to be saved and justified, Drew, then perhaps it will be in the future for you. I'm seated with Christ in heavenly places, and I'll be watching and praying you can join me.
francisdesales said:glorydaz said:We don't need to be perfect, nor can we be.
That is why we place the blood over the door post when we believe.
Abel's sacrifices did not cover his sin, Joe...nor do yours.
You are yet again contradicting yourself.. :o
First, we don't need to be perfect.
THEN, you require a perfect sacrifice to cover your sins!!!
glorydaz said:I'm afraid they have to ignore it, Dave.
glorydaz said:It's very clear righteousness is imputed to us through faith.
glorydaz said:To claim it's some manufactured righteousness just for us, and it's not Christ's own, means man can glory in it somehow.
glorydaz said:Man is forever wanting to steal the glory for his own salvation, and I'm afraid that's exactly what's being done here. It boils down to our obedience rather than Christ's. What better way for man to glory?
glorydaz said:francisdesales said:You are yet again contradicting yourself.. :o
First, we don't need to be perfect.
THEN, you require a perfect sacrifice to cover your sins!!!
I don't even need to read past this first part to be amazed.
I'm not the one who requires a perfect sacrifice...God does.