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glorydaz said:
Drew said:
So, of course, neither of the above texts is problematic for the position that fds and I are advancing - we both agree that, the good works that will justify a man are the work of the Spirit. And we agree that Paul means what he says in Romans 8 - the believer will be transformed so that, on the last day, that person will indeed not be "wicked".

So, these good works you do, through the Spirit, are what justifies you before God?

Were you delivered for your offenses, and raised by those good works of the Spirit?
Romans 4:25 said:
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Yes, the good works we do through the Spirit are what justifies us at the Romans 2 judgement. Paul means what he says in Romans 2:6-7.

And, of course, there is absolutely no contradiction at all between this truth and the truth of Romans 4:25. Jesus' death indeed deals with our sins, and his resurrection indeed accomplishes our justification. If you insist on applying your model to this, where (against Paul) you see justification as one-timer, then, of course, you are going to see a contradiction.

Again, it is fascinating how you seem to simply "let pass" all those texts which speak of future salvation and future justification (by good works)
 
Drew said:
Dave... said:
Drew....Yes, he's speaking to Christians comparing the flesh to the Spirit, or what it means to be a true believer. But unlike you Drew, I'm not trying to make a case out of the negative as being for Christians too. So your argument here is really pointless. We all agree that we all should be obedient, but the motives of that obedience is what can make it legalism.
Dave, why don't you accept the text as written? If I showed the following text to a thousand people with training in english, and without religious bias, they would all agree. Paul is making a statement about how believers get life if, repeat if, they walk in the Spirit. So why do you think you do not need to honour the dictates of english composition:

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

[quote="Dave...":261yxnsu]Lets see more context...

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you

Doesn't that say it all? Those who are born again will always overcome (1 John 5:1-5). Those who are of the flesh cannot be Christ have put on Christ.

No Dave - you are superimposing a system of thinking onto this text, and in so doing, you re-work the text itself. No literate, clear-thinking person would write the following words, if he did not believe that the believer has some kind of obligation to allow his life to be directed according to the Spirit to get, yes, life:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

This what is so odd about this discussion. Both you and gd, if not others, seem to think that it is acceptable to rework the text of an english statement into something it is clearly not saying. Yes, Paul talks about the state of being controlled by the sinful nature. And yes he talks about the believer has left that state behind and is now "in the Spirit" (verse 9).

Now here is where we part company. You read verses 10 to 13 and, believing (for some reason) that is impossible for the believer to "slip back" into the sinful nature, somehow, decide to not honour the clear meaning of the text that follows in verses 10-13 (how you justify this is a deep mystery to me).

I, on the other hand, believe that Paul does not make mistakes in what he writes. So what he said in verse 10-13 must be true - believers can, yes could, slip back into the old man, but if they do not, and remain "in the Spirit", they get life. There is no logical contradition. In verse 9, Paul has said "yes you have left the flesh behind and are in the Spirit". But, from 10-13 it is clear that Paul is aware of the possibility of "going back" to the flesh. Otherwise the text makes no sense at all.

I think the fundamental issue is this: You (and gd) do not feel constrained to buy into what Paul actually, actually, actually writes.[/quote:261yxnsu]


Hi

Paul didn't make mistakes ! But from copies of copies of copies and the many translations made throughout history. There is no wonder that we do not have the originals anymore !!!!
 
francisdesales said:
Without taking into account what James actually SAYS!!! Of all the possible means by which a man could be justified WITHOUT an audience of men, the sacrifice of Isaac would be it.

James states that Abraham was just AT THE ALTAR, not after he bragged about it to his family and friends. It was GOD who "now knows" that Abraham was just. This is an interesting comment, considering Abraham was already considered just in Genesis 12 and 15.

Unfortunately for you, because you have painted yourself into a corner with the false idea that man is justified ONLY ONCE - while the Bible clearly states otherwise, you must deny or invent that James mentions ANOTHER time when Abraham was justified.

Once you remove this restriction of thinking on how justification works, how James and Paul interact will make much more sense.

I think it must be time to address this notion that Abraham's offering of Isaac was what justified him before God instead of men. Abraham didn't need to "go bragging". The account of his obedience to God was written in the sacred scriptures so all men...even you and I, could see Abraham's faith.

Abraham was justified when he believed God...long before Isaac was born. His belief was in God's ability to do what He'd promised. He "staggered not" ...fully persuaded that God was able. This is when righteousness was imputed to Abraham...when he believed.
Romans 4:20-22 said:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham named the mountain so all men could SEE where he was obedient to God. That is the same thing James is talking about. We see the good deeds done which prove we have faith. Abraham had whereof to glory by his obedience...but not before God. He was just doing his duty by obeying.
Gen. 22:14-17 said:
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

"I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is how men can see faith. They cannot look into the hearts of man and see whether they truly believe in God. They can only tell they have faith by the fruit.
 
Drew said:
I am being true to the text in its detail, while you are glossing the details to make the text say something that you want it to say. I will make the following argument that I made to gd about this text. Now please respond to the content of this argument:

Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task?

What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

If we honour what Paul actually writes, we seen that this text is what it is - a treatment directed at church leaders. If this were not otherwise clear, Paul goes to the trouble of clearly marking out the "we" who the builders and the "you" who is the church. And what Paul goes on to say about escaping with salvation is clearly about the "we" who are leaders.

You, I suggest, have ignored this distinction, and believe that Paul is making some general statement about people cannot be saved by good works.

That is simply not how the text reads. And this is the deeper issue in all these discussions - who is following what Paul actually writes, as contrasted with what we may have wanted him to write.

Can't you read that Paul and Apollos are "only servants"? That those who plant and water are "nothing" for it is God who gives the increase? All believers are "servants"...all believers are "priests"...all believers are labourers together "with God" in the harvest....all believers are "fellow workers". I'm surprised you don't know that. It is outright error to claim Paul is only speaking to those "ministers" of the Word. You are preaching right this minute, so you can add your name to the list with Paul and Apollos. "Each one" should be careful how he builds.
1 Corinthians 3:9 said:
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
What seeds are you planting with your teachings, Drew? Do you escape accountability because you don't have a Reverend in front of your name? Are you building on the foundation, or are you adding a wing to the building of your own making. What Paul is actually speaking about here are false teachers that come in and teach another Gospel. It's convenient you think you won't be taken to task for claiming Paul is saying something he isn't.
 
Drew said:
glorydaz said:
It looks to me like you've missed the point Paul has made since chapter one. Since all men have sinned, they will all be subject to the judgment. The gentiles didn't have the law, but they will "perish without the law" because of their sin.
Gd, it must be nice to feel free to "pick and choose" which Pauline statements you accept and which you reject. Yes Romans says people will perish without the law. But you conveniently ignore what Paul goes on to say - that, indeed, there will be those who are declared righteous based on, yes, what they do.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul has said this already in chapter 2. That is, he has already stated that people are given eternal life based on, yes, what they do.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gd, you keep making the "context" argument - suggesting that Paul cannot mean what he was written in Romans 2 because of other things you think he says.

And yet, neither you, nor Dave, nor MM, have ever come with an explanation of why Paul would say something that he doesn't mean.

Since no one can obey the whole law, Drew, your argument falls flat on it's face. Paul is talking about judgment. When God's judgment is considered, then SIN is considered. I have no trouble understanding Paul. He is not saying what you claim...it's as simple as that. You take that verse out of context and attempt to explain away everything else Paul has said. There are none righteous....when the judgment comes, their good deeds will not cover SIN. Paul is not addressing believers, he is giving an overview of mankind..."Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man". He's already made it clear that all men sin. You want to ignore that fact, even though it's something he has gone to great pains to make clear. No one is declared righteous by what they do. If that were the case, Drew, God could have simply sent the Holy Spirit to live in us and not sent Jesus to die on the cross. Think about that one, and then tell me how you can save yourself from your SINS by doing good deeds through the Holy Spirit.
 
francisdesales said:
Dave... said:
Conveniently, you left out the "verse" that I posted along with the link. So editing out the verse provided, and then claiming "not one verse" is dishonest. Why do you go to such obvious dishonest extremes?

I think you need to re-read it. The verse doesn't say that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to anyone. I am not being "dishonest". Nor do your other verses state Christ's righteousness is applied to me/you or anyone else.

You left this verse out for a reason when you quoted me. Lets see what that reason is.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Here's the chapter if anyone wants to see the context. It's quite clear what was imputed. Just go back to verse 13. In fact, one needs only go back to verse 22.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
 
francisdesales said:
Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

This is how you defined Romans 3:21-26. I simply called you on it. Your reply is more...never mind. I'll leave it to the readers to decide for themselves.

Dave
 
Drew said:
glorydaz said:
Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness
The Bible never teaches this. Show us one text that supports this idea that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.

Of course the Bible teaches it, Drew. It's all about Christ's righteousness...not the righteousness of man. His righteousness being accounted to us is the bedrock of salvation. When the gospel is preached, the righteousness of Christ is revealed. The first sign of a person being regenerated is he becomes convinced of his unrighteousness, and the need for a perfect righteousness. The gospel declares to them the source of that perfect righteousness, which is the person and work of Christ alone. Jeremiah says His name shall be called "Our righteousness".

Philippians 3:9 ....And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 5:18-21...Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:21...For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 3:26,27...To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

Romans 10:3-4....For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 Corinthians 1:30....But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And, of course, this one...I'm not sure how you can expain away this being Christ's righteousness imputed unto us. Is this just some righteousness God pulls out of His hat? Jesus was raised for our justification...He is the only Just One. It's all about the cross, Drew...His work, His righteousness...none other will do.
Romans 4:22-25 said:
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 
Drew said:
Dave, why don't you accept the text as written? If I showed the following text to a thousand people with training in english, and without religious bias, they would all agree. Paul is making a statement about how believers get life if, repeat if, they walk in the Spirit. So why do you think you do not need to honour the dictates of english composition:

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

This what is so odd about this discussion. Both you and gd, if not others, seem to think that it is acceptable to rework the text of an english statement into something it is clearly not saying. Yes, Paul talks about the state of being controlled by the sinful nature. And yes he talks about the believer has left that state behind and is now "in the Spirit" (verse 9).

I think the fundamental issue is this: You (and gd) do not feel constrained to buy into what Paul actually, actually, actually writes.

You like to change what Paul writes. Paul says LIVE not walk. Believers are under the Law of the Spirit of Life. We LIVE after the Spirit, even when we don't always walk after the Spirit. You must know you don't always walk after the Spirit, but you have Life, anyway, I would hope. Once again, you want to take this verse out of context to prove something Paul is not saying. The natural man does not have the Spirit of Life, so he lives after the flesh. The Spiritual man HAS the Spirit of Life, so he LIVES after the Spirit. He is still living in a body of flesh, and will sometimes walk in the flesh, but He has LIFE and is no longer under the Law of Sin and Death. Christ comdemned sin in the flesh for all believers.
 
Drew said:
Dave... said:
This is getting, well, out of hand. We call that grasping at straws, Drew.
I am being true to the text in its detail, while you are glossing the details to make the text say something that you want it to say. I will make the following argument that I made to gd about this text. Now please respond to the content of this argument:

Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task?

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

If we honour what Paul actually writes, we seen that this text is what it is - a treatment directed at church leaders. If this were not otherwise clear, Paul goes to the trouble of clearly marking out the "we" who the builders and the "you" who is the church. And what Paul goes on to say about escaping with salvation is clearly about the "we" who are leaders.

You, I suggest, have ignored this distinction, and believe that Paul is making some general statement about people cannot be saved by good works.

That is simply not how the text reads. And this is the deeper issue in all these discussions - who is following what Paul actually writes, as contrasted with what we may have wanted him to write.

Drew, perhaps you should have noticed after the "we", and the "you", the "for no one", and the "if any man" which directly set the table for the passage in question.

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

For no one, that's everybody, and includes Paul and Apollos. Their foundation is in Christ Jesus.

vs12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

"If any man" (that's everybody, including Paul and Apollos) " "builds on this foundation" (That's Jesus Christ) "his" (still any man). Every time "he" is used after that, it refers back to "any man"

Drew, God is not a respecter of persons.
 
glorydaz said:
Drew said:
glorydaz said:
Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness
The Bible never teaches this. Show us one text that supports this idea that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.

Of course the Bible teaches it, Drew. It's all about Christ's righteousness...not the righteousness of man. His righteousness being accounted to us is the bedrock of salvation. When the gospel is preached, the righteousness of Christ is revealed. The first sign of a person being regenerated is he becomes convinced of his unrighteousness, and the need for a perfect righteousness. The gospel declares to them the source of that perfect righteousness, which is the person and work of Christ alone. Jeremiah says His name shall be called "Our righteousness".

Philippians 3:9 ....And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 5:18-21...Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:21...For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 3:26,27...To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

Romans 10:3-4....For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 Corinthians 1:30....But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And, of course, this one...I'm not sure how you can expain away this being Christ's righteousness imputed unto us. Is this just some righteousness God pulls out of His hat? Jesus was raised for our justification...He is the only Just One. It's all about the cross, Drew...His work, His righteousness...none other will do.
Romans 4:22-25 said:
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Well done
 
Drew said:
Again, it is fascinating how you seem to simply "let pass" all those texts which speak of future salvation and future justification (by good works)

If you feel you need to wait until some future day to be saved and justified, Drew, then perhaps it will be in the future for you. I'm seated with Christ in heavenly places, and I'll be watching and praying you can join me. :pray
 
glorydaz said:
We don't need to be perfect, nor can we be.
That is why we place the blood over the door post when we believe.

Abel's sacrifices did not cover his sin, Joe...nor do yours.

You are yet again contradicting yourself.. :o

First, we don't need to be perfect.

THEN, you require a perfect sacrifice to cover your sins!!!

This is the inconsistency I am talking about. Your scheme is like the mist in the wind, instable and not capable of addressing a thinking man's questions.

I have asked you for a Scripture verse, even one, where God requires that a human being be perfect BEFORE He forgives sins. Have you actually READ the OT??? Where does God call upon a perfect sacrifice before He forgives Israel? Where does JESUS speak about this requirement for perfection? My gosh...Is there a requirement ANYWHERE in Scripture for a perfect sacrifice to God???

No. You stumble over yourself, giving with the left, taking away with the right, not realizing that your edifice is built upon a number of propositions not supported by Scriptures. I am saddened because you are not paying attention and had thought you took the Word of God more seriously.

glorydaz said:
That's why Jesus had to come.

That is poorly supported by Scriptures. It is based upon a corruption of St. Anselm's Theory of Atonement, which has some serious problems. Perhaps we'll talk about it at another time. Suffice to say that the Bible does not support the need BY GOD for a perfect sacrifice. God clearly is ready to forgive the repentant man - even if HE IS IMPERFECT! That is the good news!

glorydaz said:
When we're IN CHRIST, whose righteousness does God see?

The gift that God has given ME! My righteousness...

glorydaz said:
You are once again claiming Christ's righteousness as your own.

Lunacy, because I never once state that Christ's righteousness is applied to ANYONE...

glorydaz said:
It's interesting that you scoff at the word positional, yet you claim it with your words. Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours.

Wrong. I never said Christ's righteousness is my own. Jeez, can't you read? My main argument is that this is NOT NECESSARY. God, in HIS mercy, hears the cries of supplication from His Son, the MEDIATOR for humanity, and accepts my imperfection as righteousness. I AM JUST by afith in God, a gift of grace.

Am I surprised by your latest inability to read? No, the charge of misrepresentation truly lies upon you.

glorydaz said:
That does not mean it's your personal righteousness....in spite of how loudly you proclaim it to be so.

The Bible over and over again says men are righteous because of their humble heart and their true seeking of God, their attempts to obey the spirit of the law, whether on stone tablets or in their hearts. All spiritual Jews are righteous, kin of Abraham, our father in faith..

You inability to understand that doesn't change what the BIBLE says...
 
Dave... said:
francisdesales said:
Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

This is how you defined Romans 3:21-26. I simply called you on it. Your reply is more...never mind. I'll leave it to the readers to decide for themselves.



That's one way of ignoring that the Bible tells us that men are justified throughout their lives AND that the Bible nowhere says that the righteousness of Christ is applied to men AND that the Bible nowhere states that God requires a perfect sacrifice BEFORE forgiveness is given to the repentant man.

Ya called me on it!!! Yes, let the readers decide. Nowhere in Romans 3 does it say God's or anyone's righteousness is applied to anyone...

I'll draw up a summary tommorrow morning for the readers to see how poorly your scheme fits into what the Bible ACTUALLY says...
 
Dave... said:
francisdesales said:
I think you need to re-read it. The verse doesn't say that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to anyone. I am not being "dishonest". Nor do your other verses state Christ's righteousness is applied to me/you or anyone else.

You left this verse out for a reason when you quoted me. Lets see what that reason is.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Here's the chapter if anyone wants to see the context. It's quite clear what was imputed. Just go back to verse 13. In fact, one needs only go back to verse 22.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV

I'm afraid they have to ignore it, Dave. It's very clear righteousness is imputed to us through faith. To claim it's some manufactured righteousness just for us, and it's not Christ's own, means man can glory in it somehow. Man is forever wanting to steal the glory for his own salvation, and I'm afraid that's exactly what's being done here. It boils down to our obedience rather than Christ's. What better way for man to glory?
 
glorydaz said:
Drew said:
Again, it is fascinating how you seem to simply "let pass" all those texts which speak of future salvation and future justification (by good works)

If you feel you need to wait until some future day to be saved and justified, Drew, then perhaps it will be in the future for you. I'm seated with Christ in heavenly places, and I'll be watching and praying you can join me. :pray

We are saved and justified throughout our lives. The Bible tells us that justification and sanctification are processes in the Christian walk. We are made MORE righteous with MORE graces. The more God gives us, the more we are capable of becoming even more holy and just...

We aren't talking about balancing a check book, we are talking about a relationship with God. WHICH relationship in real life is a "one time and forget about it" idea???

The Bible compares our relationship with God to a marriage, for good reason.

Which marriage utterly relies on that one night of consummation, with nothing more needed??? We constantly need to hear "I love you" and we constantly share that love with each other. Being "good" or "righteous" in that relationship is ONGOING. Being righteous in God's eyes is ongoing. We grow in it.

And yes, sanctification and justification are synonymous. The Bible uses the words interchangeably.
 
francisdesales said:
glorydaz said:
We don't need to be perfect, nor can we be.
That is why we place the blood over the door post when we believe.

Abel's sacrifices did not cover his sin, Joe...nor do yours.

You are yet again contradicting yourself.. :o

First, we don't need to be perfect.

THEN, you require a perfect sacrifice to cover your sins!!!

I don't even need to read past this first part to be amazed.

I'm not the one who requires a perfect sacrifice...God does.
We aren't perfect, nor can we ever be perfect.
That is why Jesus took our sin and covered us with His righteousness.
It is not our righteousness, it is His.
God required a spotless lamb. We aren't spotless, nor can we be.

Sin is not counted to us because Jesus took it.
Righteousness is counted to us because we are not perfect.
 
glorydaz said:
I'm afraid they have to ignore it, Dave.

I have ignored nothing you have said, no matter how ridiculous it is. That is an unfair charge.


glorydaz said:
It's very clear righteousness is imputed to us through faith.

It is very clear that you cannot follow another person's discussions, because I agreed with that several times...

Our point of disagreement is that the Bible never says that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to us. Furthermore, the Scriptures support an INFUSION, not just a mere imputation.

We are called righteous BECAUSE WE ARE righteous. Think of what you are saying. You are calling God a liar or is purposely tricking people by saying they are "x", but knowing they are not. Why must God pretend?

glorydaz said:
To claim it's some manufactured righteousness just for us, and it's not Christ's own, means man can glory in it somehow.

The glory of God is man fully realized.

Every time I do good, God is glorified. Don't you remember your Bible???

God gives me the gift of righteousness, which includes the gift of faith, hope, love, repentance, etc. Thus, I am able to holy, as God commanded me to strive to become. By HIS power, I am transformed. Just as the FIRST creation, God saw it, AND IT WAS GOOD!

glorydaz said:
Man is forever wanting to steal the glory for his own salvation, and I'm afraid that's exactly what's being done here. It boils down to our obedience rather than Christ's. What better way for man to glory?

Yours is false piety. What is ironic is that you are not protecting God's sovereignty, but denying it - by telling us, against HIS WORD, that He cannot do this and that. "No, God can't do that, God cannot MAKE me righteous - He doesn't have the ability to do that"... Apparently, God must answer to you first... That is not protecting God's sovereignty, it is protecting your own ideas that you were once taught.
 
glorydaz said:
francisdesales said:
You are yet again contradicting yourself.. :o

First, we don't need to be perfect.

THEN, you require a perfect sacrifice to cover your sins!!!

I don't even need to read past this first part to be amazed.

I'm not the one who requires a perfect sacrifice...God does.

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THIS??? HELLO, ANYONE OUT THERE????

Merely asserting that you are a 1 foot tall Martian is meaningless without some evidence. I have asked you and Dave for this ONE VERSE. SOME EVIDENCE! Nope. Just more idiotic assertions...

Lord God Almighty, give me patience... How much longer shall I toss pearls to such as these???
 
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