How Are We Made Right With God?

[Dave...]

This is where it all started.

[quote="Dave...":162wsm1x] The righteousness of God is now revealed *apart* from the Law, being witnessed by it. Jesus did not come to remove the law, but to fulfill--and--establish it.

Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

Read it again. Who's righteousness?

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[/quote:162wsm1x]

Below Francis is trying to reframe the question and aviod defending the original point that he tried to make above (in bold) concerning Romans 3:21-26.

Are you aware of the rules of the English language? When the bible says "God is righteous", it doesn't mean that it is mutually exclusive, so that NOTHING or NO ONE ELSE can be righteous. Sola fideists do the same thing with salvation by faith, and adding alone, when NOTHING is said about whether anything else is salvific, and thus, putting "alone" to the end of that phrase is a lack of understanding how language works.

Or would you prefer that I post the many instances that men are called righteous and just, throughout the bible?

Read it again, Francis. Who's righteousness?

Where does it say Christ's righteousness is applied to me???

 

[Dave...]

From the Bible. Are we to believe that man is justified in God's eyes only one time? God sees a repentant man and he is ALWAYS just? Clearly, OT and NT does not support that idea. The righteous can fall away and become wicked, and their former righteousness is not taken into account. Abraham was justified AT LEAST THREE TIMES, according to the writers of the NT. David was just before his sin of adultery, and again, after his repentance. Obviously, he was not just while commiting greivious sins! That is ridiculous. We are being justified, sanctified. So says the Bible.

Regards

You certainly didn't prove anything.

Dave

Sure I did. I told you earlier that Abraham was justified three times, once in Romans, once in Hebrews and once in James. The NT authors cite three different events in Abraham's life. Thus, justification CANNOT be just a "one time" event.

Romans 4

James 2

Hebrews 7

Thus, in the mind of the Scripture writers, righteousness and justification was an ongoing status. When one obeyed God from their heart through faith, they were deemed righteous, just.

You said it, but didn't prove it. In fact, I already addressed that.

Paul answered your question in Romans 4. Concerning James, he was speaking of mans claims of justification before other men (James 1:22). Vs. 2:23 says it all. Likewise Hebrews follows the same line of thought, not the merit, but the reality of our justifiacation.

I have spoken about James many times in this thread.

 

[Dave...]

Hi Dave. I will address your texts when I can. In the meantime, please answer these questions:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
Dave answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
Dave answer: Please insert your answer here

Drew....Yes, he's speaking to Christians comparing the flesh to the Spirit, or what it means to be a true believer. But unlike you Drew, I'm not trying to make a case out of the negative as being for Christians too. So your argument here is really pointless. We all agree that we all should be obedient, but the motives of that obedience is what can make it legalism.

Lets see more context...

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you

Doesn't that say it all? Those who are born again will always overcome (1 John 5:1-5). Those who are of the flesh cannot be obedient because they are dead. They cannot please God (note, pleasing God is after the fact of justification).

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people?

And that's correct. They didn't receive the primise because they did those things. But those who do those things will receive the promise. See the difference? Those who do those things and are truely of the Spirit, and will always overcome. We're talking evidences, not merits. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Note: These ARE sons of God, not have become, but are. "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ Not becomming children of God, heirs, joint heirs, but we ARE these things in Him.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2:1-10 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were [Spirit] baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Dave

 

[Drew]

What I find disconcerting, and par for the course, is that people like you have stripped down the Bible to Romans and a few verses sprinkled here and there. What does Jesus say about justification, being seeing right and just in God's Eyes? Didn't Jesus come here to redeem man and united US with the Father??? What does Jesus say? What does John say? James? Peter??? And frankly, Paul doesn't back up your idea, either, although SOME do confuse Paul, to their DESTRUCTION!

Let's just look at the Bible, shall we?

Well, the wicked won't be justified.

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

We can't justify ourselves or say we're "perfect".
[quote="Job 9:20":2xgxo484]If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

[/quote:2xgxo484]
Indeed. And neither of texts make Paul mistaken when he asserts ultimate justification by good works in Romans 2 and Romans 8. The point, of course, is that Romans 8 - that text you ignore and / or rewrite - speaks of the transformation of the believer into the likeness of Jesus.

So, of course, neither of the above texts is problematic for the position that fds and I are advancing - we both agree that, the good works that will justify a man are the work of the Spirit. And we agree that Paul means what he says in Romans 8 - the believer will be transformed so that, on the last day, that person will indeed not be "wicked".

 

[francisdesales]

Conveniently, you left out the "verse" that I posted along with the link. So editing out the verse provided, and then claiming "not one verse" is dishonest. Why do you go to such obvious dishonest extremes?

I think you need to re-read it. The verse doesn't say that CHRIST'S righteousness is applied to anyone. I am not being "dishonest". Nor do your other verses state Christ's righteousness is applied to me/you or anyone else.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Seriously Francis, has your righteousness exceeded that of the Scribes and the Pharisees?

You should know better, since you bring up the parable that explains how a humble man's righteousness exceeds that of a self-righteous one, the two men at prayer. Note, the tax collector was declared and recognized as HIMSELF being righteous. There is not a single implied thought present that someone else's righteousness is applied to the tax collector. Simply put, the one who rends his heart, rather than his garments, is just.

I explain this more fully to GD, so I would suggest you look there, rather than me repeating it again.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Indeed. We are righteous when we repent, not when we wash our hands before eating, refrain from pork, or have our child circumcised for the sake of following a written code, WITHOUT the internal dispositions.

Read it again. Who's righteousness?

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Below Francis is trying to reframe the question and aviod defending the original point that he tried to make above (in bold) concerning Romans 3:21-26.

Not at all. My argument is that you are clueless on the point of Romans 3. Your focus on God's righteousness prevents you from seeing what the Word of God is talking about.

You are missing the point of Romans 3:21-26, which is NOT about someone else's righteousness being legally applied to someone else. It is a faith v Mosaic practice discussion. Note the preceding verses and how shameful the possesors of the Mosaic Law actually were. Did having the Law make them righteous? Did NOT having the Law PREVENT PAGANS from being righteous??? No.

This in of itself overturns the whole rotten superstructure of "faith alone"... clearly, pagans are becoming spiritually Jewish, based on what they are doing.

The point has nothing to do with a false dichotomy of faith v deeds. Paul DEMANDS the two go together, otherwise, faith is NOTHING. Thus, as throughout the Bible, external works mean little IF there is no humble movement of the heart. Doesn't God make that clear enough through the prophets??? External works of the Law mean nothing if there is nothing of love in the heart. Jesus says the same thing in the Beatitudes, that dreaded part of the Bible that few classical protestants dare to tread...

Again, nowhere does it say that Christ's righteousness is applied to me or anyone. Follow the line of arguments that Paul is using.

 

[francisdesales]

I told you earlier that Abraham was justified three times, once in Romans, once in Hebrews and once in James. The NT authors cite three different events in Abraham's life. Thus, justification CANNOT be just a "one time" event.

Romans 4

James 2

Hebrews 11

Thus, in the mind of the Scripture writers, righteousness and justification was an ongoing status. When one obeyed God from their heart through faith, they were deemed righteous, just.

You said it, but didn't prove it. In fact, I already addressed that.

The only thing you addressed and verified is that you don't want to read that James 2 is refering to Genesis 22, Romans 4 is refering to Genesis 15 and Hebrews 11 is refering to Genesis 12. In each case, God notes Abraham as being just in His eyes.

Read it and see. I don't need to cut and paste the entire chapter for you...

Paul answered your question in Romans 4. Concerning James, he was speaking of mans claims of justification before other men (James 1:22). Vs. 2:23 says it all. Likewise Hebrews follows the same line of thought, not the merit, but the reality of our justifiacation.

I have spoken about James many times in this thread.

Without taking into account what James actually SAYS!!! Of all the possible means by which a man could be justified WITHOUT an audience of men, the sacrifice of Isaac would be it.

James states that Abraham was just AT THE ALTAR, not after he bragged about it to his family and friends. It was GOD who "now knows" that Abraham was just. This is an interesting comment, considering Abraham was already considered just in Genesis 12 and 15.

Unfortunately for you, because you have painted yourself into a corner with the false idea that man is justified ONLY ONCE - while the Bible clearly states otherwise, you must deny or invent that James mentions ANOTHER time when Abraham was justified.

Once you remove this restriction of thinking on how justification works, how James and Paul interact will make much more sense.

 

[Drew]

Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ (read the whole chapter)

Here is this same verse in the NET translation:

Cursed is the one who refuses to keep the words of this law.’ Then all the people will say, ‘Amen!’

Note the clear distinction between someone who refuses to keep the Law of Moses and someone who is guilty of having broken it.

It appears that you are putting this text forward in support of the argument that the person who has broken the Law of Moses at one point, and is therefore guilty of breaking all of it, cannot ultimately receieve a favourable "good works" judgement at the Romans 2 judgement.

Well, that does not really seem to work since there is a big difference between somoene who outright refuses to obey the Law of Moses, and someone who breaks it, even though they are generally trying to keep it. Indeed, the person who outright refuses to keep it will probably not get life.

 

[Drew]

Galatains 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€

Same argument. Romans 2 does indeed say that the Jew who lived under Torah will be judged by Torah, with eternal life in the balance. You (and others) seem to think that Paul cannot mean what he wrote since you think it is impossible to pass such a judgement.

Well, then, why does Paul mention judgement by the Law of Moses resulting in life if precisely zero persons will be justified in that manner?

This is the problem with your (and other's ) argument - you place Paul in the position of writing misleading nonsense, and yet that does not seem to bother you. No rational person would speak of a Torah (or good works) judgement that results in life, while all the time believing that zero persons will get life that way.

In any event, here is the text from the NET:

For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.â€

I agree - the Jew who does not persist in doing the Law of Moses will indeed likely fail the Romans 2 judgement. But another Jew, who has broken the Law at one point, and therefore at all points, can still truthfully claim to have persisted in a general lifelong habit of keeping the Law of Moses.

So there is really no contradiction between this text and what Paul asserts in Romans 2 (and in Romans 8).

 

[Drew]

It's easy to twist scripture when your hope is in yourself instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are not being truthful, gd.

I can only conclude that you are intentionally misrepresenting what I have posted.

 

[Drew]

This is getting, well, out of hand. We call that grasping at straws, Drew.

I am being true to the text in its detail, while you are glossing the details to make the text say something that you want it to say. I will make the following argument that I made to gd about this text. Now please respond to the content of this argument:

Paul and Apollos are church leaders and the discussion is focussed on the task of building up the church. Where, and please be specific, does this text anywhere address any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task?

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

What does Paul actually write, and I mean actually write? He writes about Paul and Apollos and the issue of other believers following one or the other.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here - verse 9 is what it is! - the "we" are not, repeat not, all believers - the "we" are Paul and Apollos, and other church leaders by implication And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

If we honour what Paul actually writes, we seen that this text is what it is - a treatment directed at church leaders. If this were not otherwise clear, Paul goes to the trouble of clearly marking out the "we" who the builders and the "you" who is the church. And what Paul goes on to say about escaping with salvation is clearly about the "we" who are leaders.

You, I suggest, have ignored this distinction, and believe that Paul is making some general statement about people cannot be saved by good works.

That is simply not how the text reads. And this is the deeper issue in all these discussions - who is following what Paul actually writes, as contrasted with what we may have wanted him to write.

 

[glorydaz]

Baloney. You clearly are missing the point of the Gospel. We don't need to be perfect - and this consideration begins with the first sacrifices offered to God by Abel...

God found Abel's sacrifice pleasing, WAY before Christ died on the cross... I would be citing nearly the entire OT to point out that God is pleased with man's sacrifice, obedience, repentance, and actions, albeit they are not always perfect. God is quite aware of our abilities, and does not expect absolutely perfect obedience.

I ask you, as I asked Dave. Please cite me ONE Scripture verse that says I must be perfect before God accepts a man's heart-felt repentance. JUST ONE!!!

yet again, you based this scheme on so many falsehooods and assumptions that just are not backed up by the Bible. You are enslaved by a tradition of men that moves you from God's Word.


What GOD says is good is good. What God says is just is just. Get over it and stop disagreeing with God.

Positional, smositional. it is an invented scheme to explain away what God can clearly do - MAKE transformed men and women in Christ. When we are in a position in Christ, we are literally Just. ME. I am just in God's eyes as I am in Christ. where does the Bible state that if I am in Christ, I am not actually just?

If I may state a slight deviation from Scriptures:

"people of christianforums", let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (CHRIST) is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Let no GD deceive you. Let no Dave decieve you. "Unless MY righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, one cannot enter the Kingdom". MY righteousness, NOT Jesus. Note, JESUS HIMSELF says this. You are contradicting the Word of God with your traditions of men. Good luck with that as you stand before the "white throne"....

We don't need to be perfect, nor can we be.
That is why we place the blood over the door post when we believe.

Abel's sacrifices did not cover his sin, Joe...nor do yours.
That's why Jesus had to come.

When we're IN CHRIST, whose righteousness does God see?
You are once again claiming Christ's righteousness as your own.

It's interesting that you scoff at the word positional, yet you claim it with your words. Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness....in spite of how loudly you proclaim it to be so.

 

[Drew]

Because you are IN CHRIST, His righteousness is counted as yours. That does not mean it's your personal righteousness

The Bible never teaches this. Show us one text that supports this idea that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.

 

[glorydaz]

My righteousness (because of the Spirit) must exceed the Pharisees' idea of righteousness.

You are misunderstanding Jesus' point. He didn't go on and on about what we must do to be righteous, only to tell us "forget about it, you must be absolutely perfect". That goes against what the Bible says over and over. We must be holy, an IMAGE of the Father's Holiness, not an exact duplicate. We must rend our hearts, be humble, seek out God and have faith in Him. There is no need to be perfect before God offers forgiveness. We just don't find that in the Scriptures, OT or NT. Numerous examples abound.

We are a holy nation, correct? We are set apart, in view of the world, but not of the world. Does being a holy nation, a holy people, mean we are all perfect? NO! It means we are God's, set apart (which is what holy means - to set apart for God's purpose).

God is holy and we also must become holy.

We see the contrast between true righteousness with that of the scribes and pharisees.

I am not sure that you do. Jesus clearly tells us we must be righteous - TRULY righteous, pure of heart! Blessed is he who is pure of heart. Meek and humble. Poor in spirit. God accepts human meekness and human humility, when it is truly from the heart. Not mere obedience to a code, while chasing skirts...

Your scheme disconnects morality from religion, ironically. IT PREVENTS a man from becoming righteous, because you already have your "fire insurance" policy. WHY become sanctified???

You continue to blur the lines between justification and sanctification.
They are two different processes and you consider them one.
We are saved by grace through faith while we are yet sinners. Can we agree to that?

Justified implies justice, does it not?
Jesus took our sins upon the cross...justice has been served.
Was it your righteousness (although imperfect) that fulfilled the law and paid the sin debt?
Whose blood was shed? Yours?
Whose body bore our sins on the cross? Yours?
Are any of your sacrifices able to take away your sins?

Sanctification is a process that takes place after we are justified.
We cannot enter through the veil into the Holy of Holies based on our own "in progress" righteousness. We must rely on the only perfect One...Jesus Christ. It's our position IN CHRIST that gives us access to Holy God.

 

[glorydaz]

You should know better, since you bring up the parable that explains how a humble man's righteousness exceeds that of a self-righteous one, the two men at prayer. Note, the tax collector was declared and recognized as HIMSELF being righteous. There is not a single implied thought present that someone else's righteousness is applied to the tax collector. Simply put, the one who rends his heart, rather than his garments, is just.

I explain this more fully to GD, so I would suggest you look there, rather than me repeating it again.

Regards

Where in the world do you get the idea either of them was righteous? :crazy

The pharisee claimed he was better than other men...he was a hypocrite.
The publican recognized he was a sinner and admitted it.

Do you think admitting you're a sinner makes you righteous? Do you think being humble enough to admit your sins makes you righteous? No, it doesn't. Jesus says he was justified...not righteous.

And someone declaring himself righteous does not make him righteous, either.
I can see why you have such a mistaken notion about justification and righteousness. :help

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[glorydaz]

You are missing the point of Romans 3:21-26, which is NOT about someone else's righteousness being legally applied to someone else. It is a faith v Mosaic practice discussion. Note the preceding verses and how shameful the possesors of the Mosaic Law actually were. Did having the Law make them righteous? Did NOT having the Law PREVENT PAGANS from being righteous??? No.

This in of itself overturns the whole rotten superstructure of "faith alone"... clearly, pagans are becoming spiritually Jewish, based on what they are doing.

It looks to me like you've missed the point Paul has made since chapater one. Since all men have sinned, they will all be subject to the judgment. The gentiles didn't have the law, but they will "perish without the law" because of their sin. Their righteous deeds will not save them from the wages of sin...which is death. Only the perfect righteousness of Christ can take away sin.

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Pagans are not becoming spiritual Jews by what they're doing.
We all become the Israel of God when we believe in what He did for us on the cross.
Nothing man does can take the place of the work of the cross.
What are you thinking? :o

 

[Drew]

It looks to me like you've missed the point Paul has made since chapater one. Since all men have sinned, they will all be subject to the judgment. The gentiles didn't have the law, but they will "perish without the law" because of their sin.

Gd, it must be nice to feel free to "pick and choose" which Pauline statements you accept and which you reject. Yes Romans says people will perish without the law. But you conveniently ignore what Paul goes on to say - that, indeed, there will be those who are declared righteous based on, yes, what they do.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul has said this already in chapter 2. That is, he has already stated that people are given eternal life based on, yes, what they do.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gd, you keep making the "context" argument - suggesting that Paul cannot mean what he was written in Romans 2 because of other things you think he says.

And yet, neither you, nor Dave, nor MM, have ever come with an explanation of why Paul would say something that he doesn't mean.

 

[glorydaz]

So, of course, neither of the above texts is problematic for the position that fds and I are advancing - we both agree that, the good works that will justify a man are the work of the Spirit. And we agree that Paul means what he says in Romans 8 - the believer will be transformed so that, on the last day, that person will indeed not be "wicked".

So, these good works you do, through the Spirit, are what justifies you before God?

Were you delivered for your offenses, and raised by those good works of the Spirit?

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Do they cover your sins?
Do they cause the Lord to not lay sin to your account?

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Is God's justice then satisfied by your good deeds through the Spirit...do they bear your iniquities, and are you the righteous servant here in this verse?

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Mysteryman]

It looks to me like you've missed the point Paul has made since chapater one. Since all men have sinned, they will all be subject to the judgment. The gentiles didn't have the law, but they will "perish without the law" because of their sin.

Gd, it must be nice to feel free to "pick and choose" which Pauline statements you accept and which you reject. Yes Romans says people will perish without the law. But you conveniently ignore what Paul goes on to say - that, indeed, there will be those who are declared righteous based on, yes, what they do.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul has said this already in chapter 2. That is, he has already stated that people are given eternal life based on, yes, what they do.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gd, you keep making the "context" argument - suggesting that Paul cannot mean what he was written in Romans 2 because of other things you think he says.

And yet, neither you, nor Dave, nor MM, have ever come with an explanation of why Paul would say something that he doesn't mean.

Oh my my Drew, how old are you ? Did you "hear" Paul say that ?

 

[Drew]

Drew....Yes, he's speaking to Christians comparing the flesh to the Spirit, or what it means to be a true believer. But unlike you Drew, I'm not trying to make a case out of the negative as being for Christians too. So your argument here is really pointless. We all agree that we all should be obedient, but the motives of that obedience is what can make it legalism.

Dave, why don't you accept the text as written? If I showed the following text to a thousand people with training in english, and without religious bias, they would all agree. Paul is making a statement about how believers get life if, repeat if, they walk in the Spirit. So why do you think you do not need to honour the dictates of english composition:

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Lets see more context...

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you

Doesn't that say it all? Those who are born again will always overcome (1 John 5:1-5). Those who are of the flesh cannot be Christ have put on Christ.

No Dave - you are superimposing a system of thinking onto this text, and in so doing, you re-work the text itself. No literate, clear-thinking person would write the following words, if he did not believe that the believer has some kind of obligation to allow his life to be directed according to the Spirit to get, yes, life:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

This what is so odd about this discussion. Both you and gd, if not others, seem to think that it is acceptable to rework the text of an english statement into something it is clearly not saying. Yes, Paul talks about the state of being controlled by the sinful nature. And yes he talks about the believer has left that state behind and is now "in the Spirit" (verse 9).

Now here is where we part company. You read verses 10 to 13 and, believing (for some reason) that is impossible for the believer to "slip back" into the sinful nature, somehow, decide to not honour the clear meaning of the text that follows in verses 10-13 (how you justify this is a deep mystery to me).

I, on the other hand, believe that Paul does not make mistakes in what he writes. So what he said in verse 10-13 must be true - believers can, yes could, slip back into the old man, but if they do not, and remain "in the Spirit", they get life. There is no logical contradition. In verse 9, Paul has said "yes you have left the flesh behind and are in the Spirit". But, from 10-13 it is clear that Paul is aware of the possibility of "going back" to the flesh. Otherwise the text makes no sense at all.

I think the fundamental issue is this: You (and gd) do not feel constrained to buy into what Paul actually, actually, actually writes.