What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

How can the trinity be one God?

JLB said:
Our course He isn’t.

Jesus is the only begotten Son.

Jesus the Son, created all things.

  • For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17


It is the Son who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth.


  • But to the Son He says:..You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


8 But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


Which is the work of YHWH who says these things through Zechariah -

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


YHWH goes on to say through Zechariah-

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; Zechariah 12:10


then they will look on Me whom they pierced.



JLB
Click to expand...

You should read the whole chapter JLB.

1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.

God has spoken to us by a Son. God created the world through him. The Son reflects the glory of God.

So the Son was the way God created the universe. How did God do it? He sent his Son. God was in heaven, his Son was on earth. The Son did what he saw the Father doing ie. the Father was creating in heaven, the Son saw what the Father was doing and he did likewise . The Son was the master workman on earth. ie. he laid the foundation, the heavens, etc.

Proverbs 8:22 says the LORD created me at the beginning of his work. Why would God need to create a workman? Because God is in heaven. He needs a way to accomplish his work on earth. He does this through his Son. This is the way God interacts with men ie. through his Son.

So there's the LORD/Father the only true God and our God and the LORD/Son, the Christ, the image of the invisible God, who was called Jesus.
 
Last edited:
JLB said:
One thing I will add now, before we continue.
Jesus is the name that represents the Godhead; The Elohim.
All the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.
Click to expand...

JLB,

How can that be when we have this evidence from Scripture?


trinity-11.gif

(image courtesy Christianity 201)

I’m trying to understand your view of Jesus the Son, God the Father and the Trinity. Do you support the orthodox explanation of the Godhead as Trinitarian?

Or is your theology closer to Modalism, which is the belief that the Godhead does not consist of 3 persons but that God is one person who reveals himself in three modes. It’s also called Sabellianism or Monarchianism (from the early church manifestations of it).

I’m not saying this is your theology but I would like to better understand specifics of what you believe.

Do you accept that:

God, the Father, is regarded as God. ‘For on him God the Father has set his seal’ (Jn 6:27 ESV); ‘God our Father’ (Rm 1:7 ESV); ‘God the Father’ and ‘God the Father’ (Gal 1:1, 3). The Father is God.

God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18); (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

God, the Holy Spirit, is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter ‘it’ but as a person, ‘he’. He is the Comforter / Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No ‘it’ can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11). [These details are from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?]

Would you support this orthodox Trinitarian understanding of God? I have not included the Trinitarian doctrine which includes Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate persons in the one Godhead. For an exposition of this position, see: Can you explain the Trinity?

I’m seeking clarification on how you understand the biblical relationship among Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the one Godhead.

Blessings,
Oz
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I understand that in Rom 10:13 Paul refers to Joel 2:32 (ESV), "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Rom 10:13).

He didn't use tou theou (of the god) or tou iesou (of the jesus), but kuriou (of lord).

In fact, the LXX (Septuagint - Greek translation of the OT before Christ came in flesh) translated Joel 2:32 [3:5 in LXX] as:



So the translators in the second and third centuries before Christ when the LXX was translated, chose kuriou (of lord) for the Hebrew YHWH (Yahweh).

All I'm trying to say is that making kurios (NT) equivalent to Jehovah (OT) in the NT is not all that simple as the word for God in the NT is not 'jehovah' but theos.

See 'Lord' (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia).

Oz
Click to expand...

No such name of God as Jehovah.

That’s a perversion of the name of the Lord.


Joel 2 is YHWH which Paul quoted.

It’s that simple.

If you disagree that Joel uses YHWH for Lord then so be it.


God bless


JLB
 
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,[d]
or the first of the dust[e] of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established[f] the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman;[g]
and I was daily his[h] delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the sons of men. Pr. 8:22-31

3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. 4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made. John 17:3-5

Something to think about.
 
MarkT said:
So the Son was the way God created the universe. How did God do it?
Click to expand...

The Son created all things.

This is undeniable.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth... Colossians 1:15-16


  • For by Him all things were created.

I just don’t see how anyone can deny that Jesus is the Creator of all things.



JLB
 
OzSpen said:
God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18); (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).
Click to expand...

Agreed
 
OzSpen said:
God, the Holy Spirit, is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter ‘it’ but as a person, ‘he’. He is the Comforter / Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No ‘it’ can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11). [These details are from my article
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
OzSpen said:
Do you support the orthodox explanation of the Godhead as Trinitarian?
Click to expand...

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

I don’t know if that is Orthodox or not.


JLB
 
MarkT said:
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,[d]
or the first of the dust[e] of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established[f] the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman;[g]
and I was daily his[h] delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the sons of men. Pr. 8:22-31

3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. 4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made. John 17:3-5

Something to think about.
Click to expand...

What specifically do you want me to think about.

What point are you making here.


Thanks.


JLB
 
JLB said:
The Son created all things.

This is undeniable.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth... Colossians 1:15-16


  • For by Him all things were created.

I just don’t see how anyone can deny that Jesus is the Creator of all things.



JLB
Click to expand...

1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. Heb. 1-4

It says God the Father created the world through (or by) his Son.
 
Jesus name at his birth was to be Emmanuel, as decreed by God to the angel Gabriel that then related that message to young Mary should she agree to be covered by the holy spirit, which is God, God being the verb in the scriptures, the creative action, while the creator is the one and only spirit that is holy. Emmanuel means, as God said, God with us.

GOD
with
US!

Jesus was God. No man can look upon the totality that is the holy spirit and live. However, when the holy spirit that is the creator of humanity, creating us in the holy spirits image and likeness, holy spirit can and did arrive in yet another creation of a man in his image and likeness. That which was named to inform everyone who knew his name that God was with them.
Jesus said, the Kingdom of Heaven is within.
Well, of course it is! Because the holy spirit is creator of all things and as the source of all that is is within all things.
If people understood that we wouldn't see tax exempt status environmental organizations arrive dedicated to saving the environment. Because we would know the world is sacred because it was made of and by holy spirit. Just as we are. All things are of God.
That did not exclude Jesus the anointed of God.

I will never argue with that which insists other is possible. God with us! It doesn't get any more clear than that fact. Woe to that which fulfills incessantly the prophecy of 1 Timothy chapter 4. It may garner bans on discussion of basic truths in the faith. It will not argue its way out when it stands before God .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MarkT said:
1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. Heb. 1-4

It says God the Father created the world through (or by) his Son.
Click to expand...

Yes the Son created the world according to the will of the Father.

Jesus created all things.

All things were created by Him and for Him.


JLB
 
MarkT said:
John 5:19
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.
Click to expand...

This is the man Christ Jesus speaking of His purpose while on earth.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top