How do you believe in Jesus, someone who you cannot see?

[JLB]

I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see except from history and what people call the New Testament which I have read over many times and yes it is very beautiful and thoughtfully written albeit by men.

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
John 20:29




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

For we walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

JLB

JLB,

Does that mean you don't provide evidence for your faith? Are there no reasons for believing?

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense (apologia) to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15 ESV).

Our faith is founded on facts and we need to give reasons why we believe.

Or, am I on the wrong flight?

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Does that mean you don't provide evidence for your faith? Are there no reasons for believing?

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense (apologia) to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15 ESV).

Our faith is founded on facts and we need to give reasons why we believe.

Or, am I on the wrong flight?

Oz

I was addressing his statement that said... “I can’t see Him”.

I simply stated the truth.

By stating this simple truth, by no means am I implying that we are not to give a defense to those who ask a reason for the hope that is in me.

You also stated some truth.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense (apologia) to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear”
(1 Peter 3:15

Thank you for that.



JLB

 

[Christ_empowered]

not to sound cheesy and/or overly-sentimental, here, but...I do think believers "see" Jesus in numerous ways...

the big one for me is "seeing" Jesus in how He transforms the lives on Christians, over time. Testimonies, basically. There's the -big stuff- , as when people are healed of major health problems, impossible circumstances are miraculously resolved, etc., and also...

day to day handiwork of Our Lord, as when lost souls gradually get it together and pursue lives of meaning, purpose, and authenticity.

to be fair to those who are doubting, ex-Christians, atheists, etc...I think this ability to "see" THE LORD at work seems to be largely (?) limited to Christians. In others, I think of it as perhaps planting seeds, with the hopes that the soil will (one day...) prove receptive, and He will give an increase.

 

[nhisshadow]

After all these years and all I've been through, I just couldn't imagine not believing in Him......what in all the heavens is there anything else????? Who else promises me hope, acceptance, forgiveness, love.......everlasting life?

Amen...

Amen

 

[nhisshadow]

not to sound cheesy and/or overly-sentimental, here, but...I do think believers "see" Jesus in numerous ways...

the big one for me is "seeing" Jesus in how He transforms the lives on Christians, over time. Testimonies, basically. There's the -big stuff- , as when people are healed of major health problems, impossible circumstances are miraculously resolved, etc., and also...

day to day handiwork of Our Lord, as when lost souls gradually get it together and pursue lives of meaning, purpose, and authenticity.

to be fair to those who are doubting, ex-Christians, atheists, etc...I think this ability to "see" THE LORD at work seems to be largely (?) limited to Christians. In others, I think of it as perhaps planting seeds, with the hopes that the soil will (one day...) prove receptive, and He will give an increase

Amen

 

[nhisshadow]

I am who some may call a 'seeker' but have grown discouraged. Grew up in a religious household and now am in my late 20s.

Its easy to see the God exists. Creation makes that evident.

I feel like I know God. I've felt His presence. I don't know doctrinally who He is... the God of Abraham; Mohammed; or the Trinity.

I'm sure he is not 100% pleased with me and the way I live but I can only do so much in this skin. I have many ingrained desires and wants which, without supernatural help, I cannot overcome.

But I just cannot come to believe in Jesus (and I have tried for over 20 years). I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see except from history and what people call the New Testament which I have read over many times and yes it is very beautiful and thoughtfully written albeit by men. The message is very compelling but it stops there - at 'believe in me'.

So I raise this question, to help me understand, to those on this forum who say they know Jesus on a personal level - how do you believe Jesus, someone you cannot see and there is no evidence of - verse God who you easily can see exists by nature?

How do you know that you know Jesus on a personal level and not the God of Abraham or some other?

Remember nature tells us there is a God, however I know of nothing that tells me there is a Jesus and He is alive today.... nothing.

How do you know who you are talking to when you pray is Jesus and not the God of Abraham or Mohammed?


The way I believe in Jesus is through a Spiritual relationship....after I repented of my sins he created a new me one that could have a spiritual relationship with him. How do I know he is real....only God can create a new heart within you, with his Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit boundaries are set within me to obey... a true child of God when he disobeys will be disciplined...I have been a few times and believe me it's for real.
Have you repented and asked him to come into your heart?

 

[LittleWhiteDove]

Ok here’s how you recognise Christ in you:

when you pray to the Father( God, who is the Great I Am)
For something you need..Like a job, house or whatever..
In the bible Your told you must already believe you have it right?

Luke 18:41; Jesus said..
What do you want me to do for you?" "Lord, I want to see," he replied.

Christ is whatever your need.

that’s how you recognise Christ.

bye

 

[Edward]

JLB,

Does that mean you don't provide evidence for your faith? Are there no reasons for believing?

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense (apologia) to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15 ESV).

Our faith is founded on facts and we need to give reasons why we believe.

Or, am I on the wrong flight?

Oz

Good questions and a decent can of worms, lol. What it boils down to for the most part is, Our faith is not founded on facts that we can see.

The Lord has helped me many times and while I am able to recount the facts of what happened each time, I am unable to offer any proofs of any such supernatural events. So we have to ask the question, are you looking for intellectual or scientific proofs? Or will you receive my testimony on faith that it is true? Which is to say, sight unseen. We are instructed to, look to the unseen.

But that goes against logic and being intellectual. In fact that was the first lie and how Eve was deceived. With the notion that knowledge is the way to God. And just look at us now!

You see, the tree of knowledge is soulish and the tree of life is spiritual so faith can never be based on worldly facts because knowledge is worldly. But to believe in an unseen force is spiritual and so is activated by the trust you place in Him within your heart and spirit.

First we trust the Lord. I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus. This trust (faith) is the substance of things unseen, so when we hold this trust within our heart and have the expectation that our Lord WILL help us...He allows it to move and boom, there's our miracle and help...it becomes the evidence of things unseen. And evidence is evidence, only this is unseen evidence but evidence nonetheless.

It's almost like we first act in faith and then it moves and becomes a reality upon this earth for us.

 

[Who Me]

Our faith is not founded on facts that we can see.

Many things we believe in we cannot see, electricity, the air we breathe, gravity, are just a few things we believe in without seeing.
Simarly we can believe in other things which we cannot see or experience.
Have you been to London, do you believe the accounts of those who have visited London?

so faith can never be based on worldly facts because knowledge is worldly.

There are no pharisees points to be gain by being more spiritual than the next Christian.
Ever noted how the apostles built there preaching on facts how Luke write ' I carefully investigated, that you might know,'

Christianity is not an emotion.

It is reality and that means it is factual, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, if it was just conjuring trick with bones, if it was a spiritual explanation for a real death with no resurrection then there is no Christianity.
Literally you are believing a lie, if Jesus is still dead.

That Jesus is not dead means you have a historical fact you can rest your faith upon.

You may not want or need it.

But how do atheists react to your claims of faith?
Atheists have a hard time when confronted by the evidence for Jesus's resurrection.

 

[Edward]

Many things we believe in we cannot see, electricity, the air we breathe, gravity, are just a few things we believe in without seeing.
Simarly we can believe in other things which we cannot see or experience.
Have you been to London, do you believe the accounts of those who have visited London?



There are no pharisees points to be gain by being more spiritual than the next Christian.
Ever noted how the apostles built there preaching on facts how Luke write ' I carefully investigated, that you might know,'

Christianity is not an emotion.

It is reality and that means it is factual, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, if it was just conjuring trick with bones, if it was a spiritual explanation for a real death with no resurrection then there is no Christianity.
Literally you are believing a lie, if Jesus is still dead.

That Jesus is not dead means you have a historical fact you can rest your faith upon.

You may not want or need it.

But how do atheists react to your claims of faith?
Atheists have a hard time when confronted by the evidence for Jesus's resurrection.

It is factual because something happens when the Lord moves in a supernatural way for someone and answers a prayer or something. And it is a fact but the Lord usually always does things in a way that it gets confirmed to who gets the miracle or wot not but not in a way that can be proven scientifically or tested in a lab, is why I said it like that.

And in the recounting of the miracle testimony to people, some receive it and believe it as truth and sometimes other Brothers and Sisters don't want to believe it, for many reasons, maybe they think that God doesn't do those things anymore or that they would have miracles and don't so I I'm probably lying or something///And atheists will never believe it as truth and always attempt to explain how it could have happened in a scientific way and that I simply misunderstood what happened because I want it to be a supernatural miracle so bad, for bragging rights or whatever. Many times they can make a very good case for it didn't really happen. And even my own flesh carnal mind will not accept spiritual truths and it will scream doubts to me saying that was not God and so forth (it can't receive spiritual things because it is carnal.

My carnal mind is so good at provoking doubt within ,e too. Even if it happened in such a way that there can be no other explanation except divine intervention from God. It's made me start doubting myself when I know it happened. So I tell my flesh to shut up and I pray and praise God because I know He helped me!

In my spirit I know certain things that I do not know in my carnal mind. And it takes the faith as a little child to believe and receive these truths. Spiritual things are only perceivable by our spirit because they are spiritual.

I think there's a difference between carnal logic and intellect and having that type of knowledge, and then we also have...intuition, where we just now things in our heart sometimes. And it is different than knowledge. And if one is not used to the difference between them it is not easy to believe certain things.

You ever get something through intuition? You walk into a room and you get bad vibes or something? Or you're driving and intend to go one route but all of a sudden you know you're supposed to detour, turn right here..? And many times it turns out to be true or was a warning to save a bad thing from happening to you. I have had that happen many times in my life. Others do too.

It's either our spiritual senses or the Holy Spirit or something. But our heart thinks and it thinks differently than our brain. Most people do not pay enough attention to thoughts and voices within them to realize that, it is different. That's not my imagination or simply my own voice. We have multiple voices within us and if you pay attention, it gets easier to know who's talking within us.
For instance, our carnal mind will not agree with scripture or spiritual matters, but our spirit or conscience always will. Our conscience is always right and says do the right thing. And it gets easier.

The Lord will also talk to us within with His still small voice, and I know that's true because it happens to me and when God speaks within us, He talks like He talks and He has said things to me that...I don't think in that speech form or grammar usage. So that was not me. But I can't prove it. I can only give my testimony but it each individuals personal faith which allows them to receive it or to not receive it and believe. Am I making sense to you?

But every time that the Lord has done something for me, He ALWAYS gives a confirmation.

 

[OzSpen]

So I raise this question, to help me understand, to those on this forum who say they know Jesus on a personal level - how do you believe Jesus, someone you cannot see and there is no evidence of - verse God who you easily can see exists by nature?

nhisshadow,

You say we can know God exists 'by nature'. I agree. In other words, we look at creation and can tell it is not an accidental chaos but an ordered universe. Behind the created there must be a Creator and we know him as God.

However, who created and sustains the heavens and the earth?

• 'For in him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him' (Col 1:16 NIV). Therefore, 2 persons in the Trinity were responsible for creation - God (the Father) and God the Son.
• However, Genesis 1:1-2 (NIV) it is stated: 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters'. Here we have the third person in the Trinitarian Godhead involved in creation. In the first clause, 'In the beginning God created ...', God is plural so this refers to the Trinitarian God.

So, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - all 3 involved in creation- who are unseen, can be known by observing what they have created.

Hebrews 1:1-2:8 demonstrate that Christ, the Creator, sustains the universe: 'The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven' (Heb 1:3 NIV).

You can know Jesus by:

1. Accepting the reliable testimony of Scripture that the Son created and sustains the universe. See my article, Evidence for the afterlife, where I use historical criteria to determine the NT is a reliable set of documents for what happens at death. In those trustworthy documents, you have facts about Jesus included.
2. In those documents you discover, 'So faith comes from hearing the Good News. And people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ' (Rom 10:17 ERV).
3. Confess your sins, repent, and receive Jesus into your life. That's how a personal relationship begins. Then join with a local church that believes in proclaiming the Good News (Gospel)

Oz

 

[WIP]

I see this thread has taken on a renewed interest. Since the OP has not been back in four years, I am moving this discussion to the Theology forum.

 

[Who Me]

think there's a difference between carnal logic and intellect and having that type of knowledge, a

You are making far to much of a distinction. Knowledge is not necessarily carnal or spiritual.
The knowledge that there is historical evidence for the existence for Jesus is not spiritual or carnal. It is simple historical fact.
The universe is God's creation, it tells us there is a God whether through the stars proclaim the existence of God or through the study of the fine tuning of matter and energy, we learn that there is a God.
It is the atheist who cannot account for why the universe exists, for the fine tuning, for why creation is reasonable and math and logic, both immaterial things exist and work.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Read the account of “ Lydia— the seller of Purple.” It is said that “ God opened her heart” to Believe in the things of God. Why should anybody be different? Only God can give “eyes to see and ears to hear”........left on our own, we were all “ dead in trespasses and sins” and wanted nothing to do with God....” Not ONE is good, there is NONE that seeks after God.....” If you no longer fit that mold, you have been blessed by God .....He was kind enough to extend His Mercy to you......there is no more reason than that.....

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I look at how scripture and Jesus teaching applies to life nowadays and forever. I do not follow Jesus just because he is the messiah but because he has a very understandable and good teaching.