How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[JLB]

Hi guys. Butch explains it better than I do. Read post 381. The result of the punishment is eternal, the duration is not. Consider the word (aionios). - DRS81

Also consider John 3:16. The Greek translation for eternal when teaching life and the Greek translation for eternal when teaching death is different..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/g0166.htm / http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/joh003.htm

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Nobody needs to "explain" what Jesus said as it is plain, clear and very easy to understand.

Then shall he say also unto them on the lefthand, Depart from me, ye cursed , into everlasting fire,prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil is the lake of fire.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10

Depart from me, ye cursed , into everlasting fire...

No explanation needed!

Jesus taught this doctrine to His disciples privately on the mount of Olives.

I THINK A LITTLE LESS EXPLAINING AND A LITTLE MORE BELIEVING WHAT IS WRITTEN WOULD DO US GOOD.


JLB

 

[jeff77]

Just something to think about, not saying this proves E.C.T. In John 3:16, the most well known verse in the Bible..."the wages of sin is death"...if the word death really means annihilation and it's been right there in plain sight for everyone to see for over 1000 years, especially our preachers and theologians, then why wouldn't they have interpreted to mean annihilation? Not saying we just take the theologians and scholars word for either, just something to consider.

 

[DRS81]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Hi JLB. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire. The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it. Jesus was using this description in Isa 66:24 to give us an idea of what the future destruction will look like. But is the fire still burning in the valley JLB?

If you can prove to me that the OT Gehenna and NT Gehenna are not speaking of this same place in the valley,
and prove to me that for ever and ever comes from Greek and not English translation, then you will convince me. - DRS81

Just something to think about, not saying this proves E.C.T. In John 3:16, the most well known verse in the Bible..."the wages of sin is death"...if the word death really means annihilation and it's been right there in plain sight for everyone to see for over 1000 years, especially our preachers and theologians, then why wouldn't they have interpreted to mean annihilation? Not saying we just take the theologians and scholars word for either, just something to consider.

It also doesn't say the wages of sin is burning forever. A good side note.

 

[jeff77]

Hi JLB. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire. The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it. Jesus was using this description in Isa 66:24 to give us an idea of what the future destruction will look like. But is the fire still burning in the valley JLB?

If you can prove to me that the OT Gehenna and NT Gehenna are not speaking of this same place in the valley,
and prove to me that for ever and ever comes from Greek and not English translation, then you will convince me. - DRS81



It also doesn't say the wages of sin is burning forever. A good side note.

Didn't God condemn the ones that were sacrificing there children to Molech? It doesn't seem to fit that He would do the exact same thing. That is literally toss non believer's into physical type of fire.

 

[DRS81]

Didn't God condemn the ones that were sacrificing there children to Molech? It doesn't seem to fit that He would do the exact same thing. That is literally toss non believer's into physical type of fire.

There are two different views you have to be aware of here.
There's a vast difference between people sacrificing their children to false gods on earth and Jesus judging nonbelievers after death.

Sacrifice to Molech
1. Based upon evil actions
2. People were still alive, they had a choice

Jesus as the Judge
1. Jesus never performed evil actions when alive
2. Jesus judges nonbelievers (after) they die

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire. The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it. Jesus was using this description in Isa 66:24 to give us an idea of what the future destruction will look like. But is the fire still burning in the valley JLB?

If you can prove to me that the OT Gehenna and NT Gehenna are not speaking of this same place in the valley,
and prove to me that for ever and ever comes from Greek and not English translation, then you will convince me. - DRS81



It also doesn't say the wages of sin is burning forever. A good side note.

Please show a scripture that teaches us the lake of fire is Gehenna.

The second death is the lake of fire.

How could the second death refer to a natural fire in a Jewish trash dump?

How does an invisible spirit, the devil, continue to be tormented day and night forever in a Jewish trash dump.

Total nonsense!!!


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Please show a scripture that teaches us the lake of fire is Gehenna.

If you can prove to me that the OT Gehenna and NT Gehenna are not speaking of this same place in the valley, and prove to me that for ever and ever comes from Greek and not English translation, then you will convince me. - DRS81

How does an invisible spirit, the devil, continue to be tormented day and night forever in a Jewish trash dump.

How does an invisible spirit, the devil, continue to be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire?

 

[MarkT]

Not a all, it doesn't take eternity for a person to burn up, however, once they are burned up, they are burned up forever. Once a person is destroyed the don't exist anymore. A person who doesn't exist cannot interact with God, thus the exclusion.

Paul said the punishment is eternal; eternal destruction and exclusion. The only question is what does he mean by eternal? Are they punished for a time or are they punished for eternity? If you want to argue for a time, then I'll say for as long as God is God and his kingdom is his kingdom. That's how long.

Therefore I have to reject the idea that it is for as long as it takes for a person to burn up.

 

[digging]

Well then JLB how can a spirit being be burned with plain brimstone?

I find it sad that so many believers are so focused on aware eternal torture as something the creator of life would even want to do.
The eternal part as I see it is the plain fact that there is no redemption, restoration or resurrection from this 2nd death. The death is FOREVER.

Digging

 

[JLB]

How does an invisible spirit, the devil, continue to be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire?

Here is what the bible states -

Well then JLB how can a spirit being be burned with plain brimstone?

I find it sad that so many believers are so focused on aware eternal torture as something the creator of life would even want to do.
The eternal part as I see it is the plain fact that there is no redemption, restoration or resurrection from this 2nd death. The death is FOREVER.

Digging

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Into everlasting fire.

Those who are sentenced to this fate are cast into the everlasting fire.

This everlasting fire is specifically prepared for spirit beings; the devil and his angels. This everlasting fire has been prepared to burn day and night forever and ever to torment a spirit being forever.

I don't know where you are coming up with the idea "plain brimstone", as this fire and brimstone was specifically prepared by God for the devil and his angels.

The only thing left for a person to do is either believe what Jesus said or not.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

My understanding is Satan is going to be kicked out of heaven, cast down to earth. I'm expecting a real person. The false prophet and the beast are going to be real people. We already know the weeds are real people.

 

[DRS81]

Here is what the bible states -

For ever and ever is an English translation. What does the Greek translation say in Rev 20:10...

The word aion means age..http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/g0165.htm / http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/rev020.htm

G165 / αἰών / aiōn / ahee-ohn‘
From the same as 104 properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550

Something that is within their ability to understand is the Hebrew concept of time. To understand the Hebrew concept of time, you must grasp the idea that the Hebrew mind did not think of the passage of time as a medium onto itself like the Greek mind or how western civilization views time. Rather, to a Hebrew, the passage of time was life. God's plan, in the Hebrew mind, consisted that man participated in two great ages. One age was this temporal in nature, the other great age was the age to come. Each of these great ages were divided up into smaller ages by events that occurred through life. Ultimately the sum of the temporal age was finite, and the sum of the age to come was infinite, which is to say, everlasting. Hence, the rendering of "ages of ages" while technically correct, completely fails to convey the meaning to the western reader. Therefore, to render the English as "for ever and ever" is correct, because this does explain the idea of the passage. However, if you are a universalist whom disbelieves this explanation, I encourage that you don't trust me, instead learn of the truth for yourselves from an expert. To accomplish this, I ask that you seek out your local synagogue and speak with the rabbi you find there. For starters, the rabbi is a completely neutral source of information; because his view will most likely be that we are both members of a really big cult called Christendom, and as such, he won't care one way or another. Get the rabbi to explain how Old Testament Hebrews viewed time. While ages of ages is a correct possible grammatical construction from an Old Testament Hebrew's point of view, this means "forever and ever" to the same Old Testament Hebrew when it refers to the age to come, the after life. Thus any translator interested in translating what is meant by the phrase in the original language will render the Greek "for ever and ever" or the like when applicable in English.

 

[DRS81]

JLB & MarkT Let's study the word Olam here and the perspective of time. There is much to learn..

Hebrew Word Olam - http://www.biblepages.net/gg09.htm
The Perspective of TIME (Part I & 2) - http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_04.html

Read and watch these, and get back to me. These are good sites to study Hebrew, Greek and Time.

 

[JLB]

JLB & MarkT Let's study the word Olam here and the perspective of time. There is much to learn..

Hebrew Word Olam - http://www.biblepages.net/gg09.htm
The Perspective of TIME (Part I & 2) - http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_04.html

Read and watch these, and get back to me. These are good sites to study Hebrew, Greek and Time.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46

Both everlasting and eternal are the same Greek word -

Strongs # 166 - Aionios

Without end; eternal

We don't need to look at some Hebrew word on some website when this is written in Greek.

You have tried every way you know to distract and explain away what the clear and plain words of Jesus Christ taught us.

Why?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

We don't need to look at some Hebrew word on some website when this is written in Greek.

Hey JLB. I'm not trying to distract you. I'm trying to open up your mind beyond the English kindergarten translations. Most bible versions do not translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Instead, they make it seem that many of the instructions that were given to ancient Israel, were “for ever” (or “everlasting” or “eternal”, or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not so, of course. Do you know what Olam means and why the Greek translations of Olam are incorrect. When you translate words from one language to another it can cause much confusion in regards to specific words. Do you know why that is.

 

[JLB]

Hey JLB. I'm not trying to distract you. I'm trying to open up your mind beyond the English kindergarten translations. Most bible versions do not translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Instead, they make it seem that many of the instructions that were given to ancient Israel, were “for ever” (or “everlasting” or “eternal”, or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not so, of course. Do you know what Olam means and why the Greek translations of Olam are incorrect. When you translate words from one language to another it can cause much confusion in regards to specific words. Do you know why that is.

Both everlasting and eternal in this verse are the same Greek word -

Strongs # 166 - Aionios

Without end; eternal

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46


A person would have to try and discredit the truth of eternal life, in order to discredit the truth of everlasting punishment, as they are the same Greek word. Strongs # 166 - Aionios

This is what the my bible states as truth.

There is no confusion in these words that Jesus taught to His disciples and to us.

I can see where a person might be confused who tries to understand a definition of a word that is not used in this verse, yet tries to imply that it is.

The word for eternal and everlasting in this verse is: Strongs # 166 - Aionios - Without end; eternal


Do you believe in eternal life?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Do you believe in eternal life?

Hi JLB, sure I do.

What are your thoughts on the word olam.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB, sure I do.

What are your thoughts on the word olam.

Where is olam in this verse?

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Where is olam in this verse?

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46


JLB

Everlasting and eternal are English translations.
Go to the Hebrew word, olam. What does it say.
Scripture was first written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

[JLB]

Everlasting and eternal are English translations.
Go to the Hebrew word, olam. What does it say.
Scripture was first written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Again, where does the Hebrew word olam, occur in this verse?

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46


JLB