How to teach religion.

[GodsGrace]

With marriage being redefined by alternative arrangements with the support of the government, do we now say a covenant between a man, a woman, and God is no longer a marriage? Are we to say what we have isn't marriage because it's so distinguishable from others? Do other unions that have bastardized the word "marriage" mean that we should start denying that what we have is marriage?

I'd say my wife and I are married, and I am of the one true religion... Christianity.

Mike,
Who are you speaking to?
Me?

I'm not saying we should change what Marriage means; I agree with you 100%.
Just saying that Christianity, to me, is not a religion.

The Catholic church is a religion. It told me what to do to be saved. It never mentioned Jesus. It never mentioned being saved. It said that I was to be aware of my sins. I was to go to confession. I was to be a good girl. And I was to go to Mass every week. Then God would be happy with me.

Is there something missing here?

Jesus was never introduced to me. How was I ever going to do all of the above. And thinking about my sins all the time, and even counting them, wow, yeah, that was helpful.

Christianity is not a religion because Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP.

I had asked Free this too. When YOU got married did you have a list of do's and don'ts OR did you trust that you loved your wife and she loved you and you trusted that your relationship would carry you through life?

It's the same. Religions give you a bunch of rules to follow. A relationship depends on love.

Moses gave us the 10 Commandments.
Jesus gave us two.
Because those two cover all the others. Follow those two and you've followed them all.

Hate to put it like this since I believe in following the 10 commandments, but.
The decalogue is religion - it didn't work.
Jesus is Christianity.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Tell me why Jesus sentenced these servants of His to the everlasting fires of hell?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

There are very few who read that particular scripture set with honesty to start with. Why would we automatically assume that we are always and only sheep who always and only do sheep works when the honest to God fact is none of us do? The "truth" is that believers do in fact do both sheep works and goat works when they are not doing sheep works.

Can you be honest and use the language from the words of Jesus here in these verses, to give an answer.

Entirely dependent on how the parable is dissected and understood. Honestly.

Luke 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Jesus said we will live by every Word of God, not just the Words we happen to prefer and like. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Does that really mean that even the adverse Words of God should be personally applied unto LIFE? Uh, yes. In some people's eyes they will hear all of it, themselves. And apply it. Not personally exempt themselves. I generally distrust angles of exemption from all of God's Words, from anyone.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno...marriage is an Institution. Until fairly recently, getting married and staying married and producing functioning off spring was part of being a respectable adult in mainstream society. My parents, for instance, have managed to stick together because both of them are dedicated to the Institution of marriage as an important sign of maturity and genuine adulthood, not to mention being a contributing member of society.

I think we have gay "marriage" because marriage, as an institution, is null and void. We should have a funeral. Marriage is now about feelings, personal growth, compatability, comfort, etc. etc. etc. There is no dedication to society, the common good, human decency, much less God.

Similarly...I think of Christianity as a religion because religions are an important part of maintaining social stability. Now, I think Christianity is the 1 true faith, the only way to The Father is through Christ...but I don't feel comfortable saying that Christianity is not a religion. Saying Christianity is a relationship makes Christianity more of a personal thing, a 1 person journey on the narrow path that leads to life everlasting. I'm not the biggest fan of the RCC, but they do have more community than most Protestant groups...and humans need community on an individual level, and society needs those bonds on a group level.

Soooo....I think Christians should try to reject a lot of this relativistic, hyper-indvidualistic, self-centered thinking that has thoroughly saturated the secular realm and seems to have infiltrated the church, too. Institutions are important. There are plenty of false religions...Christianity is the 1 true religion, and that's something to be very, very proud of, I think. Historically, when Christians get together and set about changing the world--abolishing slavery, working for Civil Rights, working for better conditions for women+children--good things happen, for believers and unbelievers alike. Society changes a bit, for the better...and even if most of the people who benefit never get saved, they've been blessed through the work of dedicated, organized Christians.

Basically, I don't think "religion" is a bad word. I don't think rules and order and hierarchy and tradition are always a burden, an obstacle to be overcome. Yes, Christianity is about a relationship with Christ...at the personal level. There's also an important community level aspect, which is why I do think Christianity is a religion (its The Religion, of course).

 

[GodsGrace]

I dunno...marriage is an Institution. Until fairly recently, getting married and staying married and producing functioning off spring was part of being a respectable adult in mainstream society. My parents, for instance, have managed to stick together because both of them are dedicated to the Institution of marriage as an important sign of maturity and genuine adulthood, not to mention being a contributing member of society.

I think we have gay "marriage" because marriage, as an institution, is null and void. We should have a funeral. Marriage is now about feelings, personal growth, compatability, comfort, etc. etc. etc. There is no dedication to society, the common good, human decency, much less God.

Similarly...I think of Christianity as a religion because religions are an important part of maintaining social stability. Now, I think Christianity is the 1 true faith, the only way to The Father is through Christ...but I don't feel comfortable saying that Christianity is not a religion. Saying Christianity is a relationship makes Christianity more of a personal thing, a 1 person journey on the narrow path that leads to life everlasting. I'm not the biggest fan of the RCC, but they do have more community than most Protestant groups...and humans need community on an individual level, and society needs those bonds on a group level.

Soooo....I think Christians should try to reject a lot of this relativistic, hyper-indvidualistic, self-centered thinking that has thoroughly saturated the secular realm and seems to have infiltrated the church, too. Institutions are important. There are plenty of false religions...Christianity is the 1 true religion, and that's something to be very, very proud of, I think. Historically, when Christians get together and set about changing the world--abolishing slavery, working for Civil Rights, working for better conditions for women+children--good things happen, for believers and unbelievers alike. Society changes a bit, for the better...and even if most of the people who benefit never get saved, they've been blessed through the work of dedicated, organized Christians.

Basically, I don't think "religion" is a bad word. I don't think rules and order and hierarchy and tradition are always a burden, an obstacle to be overcome. Yes, Christianity is about a relationship with Christ...at the personal level. There's also an important community level aspect, which is why I do think Christianity is a religion (its The Religion, of course).

Two things CE:
1. Rules do not get you to God.
2. How do you figure Catholics have more community than other groups? I don't see any community.

You do make some interesting points re individualism.

I don't mean that you stay home and be individual.
I mean that you go to a church, but the reason you're there is to know Christ, not to follow their rules.

I always took my kids to church, I am NOT against church.

Wondering

 

[Christ_empowered]

I didn't mean to sound like I was making a personal attack. I'm not. I just think...calling Christianity a religion, The Religion, is not a bad thing. I think it stands out from the competition because it is The Truth, and Truth will appeal to some and repulse many in and of the world.

Anyway...I've been reading some pop sociology on how isolated and miserable Americans have become (more so than most other affluent, developed nations, apparently). Something like 1 in 4 Americans don't even have --1-- close friend. As for the RCC thing...back in the day, Durkheim did a study on suicide rates. Protestants had more suicides than the RCC, and the Jewish community had the lowest rates...the theory is that suicide primarily results from being outside the group (anomic suicide). Suicide is conceptualized by many as a social problem that shows up in individual behavior. So, basically...America's suicide rate hasn't risen because of an epidemic of "depression" so much as it has risen because of social disintegration. ((Just an example))

I just think it'd be nice to reclaim community+structure+order in Protestant circles. Plus, like I said, I've been reading this stuff and thinking about it a bit too much, lol.

Please don't take anything I posted as an attack. I didn't get any sleep last nite and I'm running off of extra strong coffee, lol. Just throwing ideas out there, that's all.

 

[JLB]

The "truth" is that believers do in fact do both sheep works and goat works when they are not doing sheep works.

THE TRUTH as to why they were sentenced to hell is because they did not do... not because they did "goat works".

The goats were sentenced to hell because they "did not" do.... not because what they did wasn't "sheep" works.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46


JLB

 

[Kidron]

THE TRUTH as to why they were sentenced to hell is because they did not do... not because they did "goat works".

JLB

-
They are not Christians..., which is why they are called servants.
Remember those who Christ said..."i never knew you"?
But they knew Him, yet were LOST.
see it yet?
Christians cant go to hell or the lake of fire.....If they did, then Christ goes there also, as "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory"..
This is why you are "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST"< while you are reading what i just said.
JLB< you cant change the born again situation, by jerking verses out of context.

think on these.....

Let me ask you this....<

What are you TRUSTING right now, to get you to heaven and keep you there, if you died today?
What is this one thing??
Name then ONLY THING that can get you to heaven and KEEP YOU THERE...
What are YOU Trusting, to get you there TODAY, and keep you there..... if you died today?
What is it ?
?
?

 

[smaller]

THE TRUTH as to why they were sentenced to hell is because they did not do... not because they did "goat works".

My point is that there are not believers who always and only do "sheep" works. When they don't, they are in fact doing goat works.

This for example would be an Apostle, NOT doing sheep works and as a fact by "not doing" sheep works and doing the below, it IS goat works:

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

You will be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.

 

[JLB]

They are not Christians..., which is why they are called servants.

Your not addressing the words of scripture and the plain language spoken by our Lord.

First of all, those who serve God and called servants.

I gave you the scripture that teaches this truth, which you completely ignored.

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:1

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. Acts 3:13

• Jesus as the Son of God is called the Servant of God.

Now that we see the scriptures have refuted your opinion, I will again move to show the words of Jesus Christ Himself, from
Matthew 24 and 25.

It's interesting to see that your perspective, places the "sheep" who are also His servants, as not being "Christians".

• Jesus is the Shepherd of the sheep who His servants, who on the Day of Judgement were found to have been faithful.

• Jesus is the Shepherd of the goats who His servants, who on the Day of Judgement were found to have been un-faithful.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.Matthew 24:45-47

Here Jesus illustrates for us, a person who has been elevated to a position of authority, and was found to be faithful in doing what he was told to do, when the Master returned.

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:48-51

In this scenario, Jesus again illustrates for us this servant, who rather than being faithful with what his Master has given him to do, he says to himself that "my Master is delaying His coming", and begins to abuse those whom he was supposed to care for, and to eat and drink with the ungodly, living for himself he then neglects what his Master has given him to do, living an ungodly lifestyle, while ignoring his place and responsibility to his Master.

...cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In both cases, each servant started out as the servant of the same Master.

One one faithful, and was blessed when his Master returned.
The other was unfaithful, and assigned his portion with the hypocrites.

Both were servants of the same Master.

The one servant who became unfaithful, was was punished for neglecting his fellow servants, who were his fellow servants of the same Master.

Why would you think Jesus would put someone who doesn't believe in Him, to be a ruler over His household with the responsibility of serving His people?


JLB

 

[JLB]

My point is that there are not believers who always and only do "sheep" works. When they don't, they are in fact doing goat works.

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's what you said originally -

The "truth" is that believers do in fact do both sheep works and goat works when they are not doing sheep works.

The Goats were punished for doing nothing.

 

[smaller]

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's what you said originally -

The Goats were punished for doing nothing.

Goat work is not doing sheep work. It would take an extreme disregard to say believers only and ever do "sheep" works when that obviously isn't the case with Paul used as the previous example.

Here is a little lesson Jesus gave us about how to understand all parables. Mark 4:13.

In that entire chapter the methods used to understand parables are given. They contain 3 parties. All parables contain 3 parties. God/His Word, people and the devil(s). These 3 same parties are also found in the parable of the sheep/goats in Matt. 25, quite obviously.

The fact is that the promise of the Gospel is to be 'separated' from our enemies. This promise is also contained in that parable. The enemies are also in that parable, quite obviously. This is exactly what the separation of the nations represents in that parable. The separation between "us" and our enemies.

We know that Paul did not always and only do "sheep works" by his own open admissions in Romans 7:15 & 19.

Were Paul still alive in the flesh, and this promise of Jesus' separation transpired then, THIS is who Paul would have been separated from:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The "goat" is a long standing scriptural representation of the devil. That's the long and the short story to understand not only that parable, but all parables. If "all" the parties that Jesus Demands to be on the table in parable analysis are not seen or accurately defined, then there is no understanding of it.

IF we falsely claim that every Word of God does not apply to us, then we simply are not looking accurately. And that is directly DUE to the influences of the other party. Mark 4:15. And Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 have been violated.

Not applying every Word brings us into the seat of hypocrisy:

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

I doubt very much that hypocrites who have been "cut in TWO" are capable of weeping/gnashing teeth.

Matthew 13:
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Here's news for every hypocrite: We all work iniquity.

 

[Kidron]

Your not addressing the words of scripture and the plain language spoken by our Lord.
First of all, those who serve God and called servants.

JLB

-
Exactly.
Jesus called them Servants.
He didnt call them SONS.
Jesus calls us "Friends"
"rightly divided the word".

"Servants can end up in hell"
"Born AGAIN Sons of God, only end up in Heaven".

 

[JLB]

-
Exactly.
Jesus called them Servants.
He didnt call them SONS.
Jesus calls us "Friends"
"rightly divided the word".

"Servants can end up in hell"
"Born AGAIN Sons of God, only end up in Heaven".

It don't know where you are getting your information, but it certainly isn't from the bible.

Jesus Christ the Son of God is called a servant of God.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. Acts 3:13

Paul who wrote most of the New Testament is called a servant of Christ.

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:1


So by your own admission it was possible for Paul as a servant of God, like all Christians who have become servants of God, by repenting and turning away from serving the devil, to end up in hell, like the example Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse teaching.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

Here are those who walked as faithful servants in obedience to righteousness.

Just like Paul also taught us:

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: Romans 2:4-6

Please examine these words, and read them: God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• according to what the person does.

...render to each one according to his deeds”:

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Here it is again, right from Paul: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good.

• Now the other group of God's people:

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

...to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...indignation and wrath,

People who are born again, and have the Holy Spirit within them, as well as the laws of God's kingdom written on their heart and their mind, leading them to do what is right, but instead these folks DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, will end up receiving God's indignation and wrath.

Read it for yourself in black and white, brother. Please don't ignore the plain words of scripture.

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.



JLB

 

[Mike]

Do you view the relationship you have with your wife as a religion?


JLB

Mike,
Who are you speaking to?
Me?

I'm not saying we should change what Marriage means; I agree with you 100%.
Just saying that Christianity, to me, is not a religion.

I thought my message would be clearly received in the context of this conversation. It had nothing to do with marriage. Wondering, I wasn't specifically directing my comment to you, but you were among those I had in mind.

Just as the word "marriage" is being redefined, the word "religion" has gone through that full cycle to the point that Christians often respond in horror when they are associated with religion. Is Christianity a relationship or a religion? I believe it's both. They aren't mutually exclusive. You can be part of this religion without having a relationship with Christ, but some do. Having that necessary relationship doesn't change the fact that God's Word calls it a religion. In its truest sense of the word, Christianity is a religion.

Matthew 23:5-7 describes the type of believer that has led to this negative connotation. People mar the church by making it something you do. The true Church does not. I, too, wince when someone calls me religious, but I hope to cling to God's definition of the word rather than our culture's.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought my message would be clearly received in the context of this conversation. It had nothing to do with marriage. Wondering, I wasn't specifically directing my comment to you, but you were among those I had in mind.

Just as the word "marriage" is being redefined, the word "religion" has gone through that full cycle to the point that Christians often respond in horror when they are associated with religion. Is Christianity a relationship or a religion? I believe it's both. They aren't mutually exclusive. You can be part of this religion without having a relationship with Christ, but some do. Having that necessary relationship doesn't change the fact that God's Word calls it a religion. In its truest sense of the word, Christianity is a religion.

Matthew 23:5-7 describes the type of believer that has led to this negative connotation. People mar the church by making it something you do. The true Church does not. I, too, wince when someone calls me religious, but I hope to cling to God's definition of the word rather than our culture's.

Mike,
I understand where you were headed with your marriage analogy.
I agree with that, as I've stated.

Regarding Christianity, you've answered perfectly my belief. You said:
You can be part of this religion without having a relationship with Christ,

That's my whole point! You're part of a religion. You belong to this man-made organization that is here to put forth the word of God, keep everyone who believes in this supernatural being together so we could worship and revere that being. It's a system.

Now let's look at the meaning of Christianity:
What was taught by Christ and His followers. Christian beliefs of faith. Christian spirit or character.

Now to be honest the meaning for Christianity did include the word Religion but because there is no other word to describe what is being spoken about.

However, if you look at the first meaning and the second meaning there's a definite difference.
Religion is everything we do to try to get to God. Some are following a religion and don't even believe in God! I know people like this.

I can only repeat:

Religion is a DOING.
Christianity is a BEING.

When people tell me I'm religious, I tell them I'm not but I believe in God.

This does not mean I don't believe in going to church or doing all the that one should do.
I think understanding the difference between the two words makes us understand our Christianity better.

I know women who go to every Mass, go to rosary service every Friday, say novenas, get indulgences, go to Adoration, and who knows what else - but they don't KNOW Jesus. They never talk about Him. When I bring up a topic they never know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying they're not saved, I believe they are and anyway it's not for me to say.

But, I ask: Are they religious or are they Christian? What makes one be Christian is their understanding that they Love the Lord and are FOLLOWING HIM and not a set of religious rules.

I was speaking to a Catholic priest yesterday who actually told me that a lot of people who are in church shouldn't even be there! HE understands the difference.

Also, I don't know that this hill is worth the battle...

Wondering

 

[JLB]

I thought my message would be clearly received in the context of this conversation. It had nothing to do with marriage

That's the point.

Our relationship with the Lord is that of Covenant relationship, as in a marriage between a Man and woman.

Our relationship with the Lord is not a religion.

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17-18


We are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him.


How do you see that as a religion?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

That's the point.

Our relationship with the Lord is that of Covenant relationship, as in a marriage between a Man and woman.

Our relationship with the Lord is not a religion.

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17-18

We are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him.

How do you see that as a religion?

JLB

Excellent post JLB.
What could be more clear?

 

[Free]

That's the point.

Our relationship with the Lord is that of Covenant relationship, as in a marriage between a Man and woman.

Our relationship with the Lord is not a religion.

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17-18


We are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him.


How do you see that as a religion?


JLB

You and the others are still going by your own made up definition of religion. Do you deny that there are certain beliefs that one must hold to in order to be in relationship with God? Do you deny that there are certain things we are told to do and not do as part of this relationship?

That Christianity teaches we can be in relationship with God in no way whatsoever means that it isn't a religion.

 

[JLB]

You and the others are still going by your own made up definition of religion.

What "made up" definition are you referring to?

I'm saying that we are in Covenant with the Lord: as a Man and woman in a marriage relationship.

We are joined to Him, and are one Spirit with Him.

I don't perceive or view this relationship with Him as a religion.

How about you?

Do you see our relationship with the Lord as a religion?

Please share your views about this with us.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You and the others are still going by your own made up definition of religion. Do you deny that there are certain beliefs that one must hold to in order to be in relationship with God? Do you deny that there are certain things we are told to do and not do as part of this relationship?

That Christianity teaches we can be in relationship with God in no way whatsoever means that it isn't a religion.

Free,
You only have to believe that Jesus will save you. Whatever else you believe is extra.
There are certain things you have to DO
There are certain things you have to NOT DO

AS PART OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.
exactly as you have said.

NOT apart from the relationship - which is religion.

That's the difference I see.