francisdesales
Member
1. No
2. No
Are you saying we are going to heaven based upon our faith alone, without works of love? Yes or No.
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1. No
2. No
Are you saying we are going to heaven based upon our faith alone, without works of love? Yes or No.
stovebolts
Member
I agree with this.
Funerals are for people who are still alive. They are not for the dead. But a known fact is this. God does care how you live, today... before your dead. Actually, Jesus raises the bar on Torah from Matthew 5-7 to a point where nobody could even come remotely close to keeping them, and Jesus concludes this way of living by stating,
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Levi
Member
That's either a sidestep or an oxymoron. I'm not sure which yet!
If a response doesn't earn anything then why respond? The statement is a little nonsensical!!
How can a 'response' of works not be salvation 'earned'
if a 'non response' of works is salvation 'rejected'
The only response that I could see that one could biblicaly qualify for salvation is repentance, baptism and confession. These are as a result of belief. The Word clearly teaches that belief is due to 'revelation' and is in fact the opening of a mans eyes by God Himself.
I base this on several statements of Jesus, Paul and Peter who even said this:
Acts 2
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?†38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.â€
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.â€
Confession is a natural response of belief.
Bearing witness and giving testimony to the truth!
We also know from the thief that water baptism is not mandatory and that repentance is a matter of the heart but that also most importantly:
Due recognition of Jesus is the key! and confession is the only true non negotiable work required of a man for salvation!
once again: Confession is a natural response of belief.
The thief believed in his heart Jesus was the Son of God and he confessed his own deserved death but also confessed Jesus' divinity Jesus' pending resurrection by requesting Jesus remember him when He sat upon His throne.
In the story of the thief we see everything that Paul talked about when summing up the Gospel in Roms 10:10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
francisdesales
Member
I'm sorry if you do not understand my point. Please do not be so quick to judge based upon a few words. This is why I dislike discussing theology and being forced to make one word statements...
Our response does not earn something. The gift is freely given. However, we can reject it by not responding to grace.
It is quite simple. When I give my child a gift, it is freely given. They didn't earn it. Their joyful acceptance of it does not purchase it. I already bought it and gave it, whether they toss it in the garbage or play with it and use it. It is the same with salvation. It is freely bought and paid for through the work of Christ and freely available to ALL men. However, men, just as the child in my example, can reject the gift and toss it in the garbage.
Does this make sense?
Faith or belief does not "qualify" you for anything, since it is not your own. Faith alone does not save, either. Do you think "faith" earns anything from God? Only God saves!
Let me make this clear. This is a complex issue, and the search for bumper sticker cliches (like faith alone) just does not do justice to the faith given to us by the Apostles. NOTHING we do can earn salvation. Not even our faith. But WITHOUT faith working in love, you are NOTHING (1 Cor 13:2-3). Does this "earn" anything? No. But that is the response God expects from those whom He gives gifts. An example? Matthew 25 and the parable of the talents...
The rest was inconsequential to the discussion, so I didn't respond to it.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Amen and I agree 100%
However, many people will not like your comments because they believe that we cannot be saved without adequate amounts of works and human effort.
You do not earn salvation by faith, either...
smaller
Member
It is reasonable and logical to presume that the condition of both thieves was as unbelieving sinners (as opposed to believing sinners.)
We know the following was 'both' of their openly admitted statements:
Matt. 27:
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieveS also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
We also know one of the thieves at a near later point had 'a change of heart, again easily discernible by the fruit of his lips:'
Luke 23:
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
It is a simple fact that this was the condition of both thieves when they mocked Jesus:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It is logically impossible to separate the 'god of this world' from the activity of any blinded person. This also logically and categorically means that 'god' is active in that persons mind, blinding them, perhaps even speaking through them as with Peter for example.
In this light we should view every 'un'believer as in 'they are not alone' in their blindness. There is a cause that is not them. That 'cause' is the enemy of ALL children of God. Those who are called to share the Love of God in Christ to ALL mankind should do so knowing of our mutual adversaries who BLIND unbelieving mankind. Again, they are not alone in their blindness. The ENEMY has them/their MINDS in his anti-Christ spiritual grip, and that grip is STRONG, even mocking God in Christ right to His Face!
It is beyond me to know how the hold of the god of this world is diminished enough for such blinded ones to see. It is again logical and reasonable to assume that it is not in the hands of the blinded to release themselves from that grip. After all nearly NONE of these so blinded even know what is going on with these matters. Believers are supposed to know our enemies, and it is not our fellow man.
Where do you expect to find the enemies but IN PEOPLE???
It is the pleasure of any believer to share the Love of God in Christ with them. It is also reasonable to assume that the enemy in their minds will BLIND that person to that Good News.
It should be the hope and prayer of everyone for release into the Light of Life for the blinded one, and resistance to the enemies. This is how the Gospel Works....
It is Gods Job to decide whether or not they will be allowed to see. God IS certainly powerful enough to pull back the curtains of the blinding enemy from any persons mind any time He So Pleases.
Paul knew that God brings the increase, and advised us of such here:
1 Corinthians 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
enjoy!
smaller
We know the following was 'both' of their openly admitted statements:
Matt. 27:
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieveS also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
We also know one of the thieves at a near later point had 'a change of heart, again easily discernible by the fruit of his lips:'
Luke 23:
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
It is a simple fact that this was the condition of both thieves when they mocked Jesus:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It is logically impossible to separate the 'god of this world' from the activity of any blinded person. This also logically and categorically means that 'god' is active in that persons mind, blinding them, perhaps even speaking through them as with Peter for example.
In this light we should view every 'un'believer as in 'they are not alone' in their blindness. There is a cause that is not them. That 'cause' is the enemy of ALL children of God. Those who are called to share the Love of God in Christ to ALL mankind should do so knowing of our mutual adversaries who BLIND unbelieving mankind. Again, they are not alone in their blindness. The ENEMY has them/their MINDS in his anti-Christ spiritual grip, and that grip is STRONG, even mocking God in Christ right to His Face!
It is beyond me to know how the hold of the god of this world is diminished enough for such blinded ones to see. It is again logical and reasonable to assume that it is not in the hands of the blinded to release themselves from that grip. After all nearly NONE of these so blinded even know what is going on with these matters. Believers are supposed to know our enemies, and it is not our fellow man.
Where do you expect to find the enemies but IN PEOPLE???
It is the pleasure of any believer to share the Love of God in Christ with them. It is also reasonable to assume that the enemy in their minds will BLIND that person to that Good News.
It should be the hope and prayer of everyone for release into the Light of Life for the blinded one, and resistance to the enemies. This is how the Gospel Works....
It is Gods Job to decide whether or not they will be allowed to see. God IS certainly powerful enough to pull back the curtains of the blinding enemy from any persons mind any time He So Pleases.
Paul knew that God brings the increase, and advised us of such here:
1 Corinthians 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
enjoy!
smaller
patience7
Member
The one thief condemned - And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
There is his faith.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
There is his faith.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him. Putting our (mustard seed faith) in God's Salvation plan for us, starts the process of receiving Christ as Savior and Lord. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God the Bible says. We must first, hear the word, then respond to it by believing...
stovebolts
Member
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I would place what you have stated above, more in line with confession and pronouncing what is true through repentance. What this man did, was good, not evil and as such, spoke the truth boldly, but also in humility.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
The above sounds more like hope.
Patience,
My point was more about discernment as our fruits are known by not only what we say, but what we do. It would be easy to compare and contrast both thieves against Galatians 5 to see where their fruits originated from.
Honestly, I fear that we are becoming a society filled with dogma where doctrines are outweighing the totality of Scripture and we are loosing our ability to discern.
Hebrews 5:14 (NIV) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
francisdesales
Member
Indeed, and pray tell, where does that faith come from? You yourself? This is why Paul wrote to the Ephesians that men CANNOT boast - to include about their faith.
Faith itself is a gift. We are dealing with mystery here, let us tread carefully.
Faith does not earn salvation. Why? Because it is a gift, and we can do nothing salvific without God, to include having faith in Him.
Strictly speaking, faith alone does not save, because THAT is ALSO from God! Nothing can save us of our own manufacture.
My signature line says it all. WHATEVER is good in you. This is nothing new.
Regards
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
NOTE an important issue. The thief did NOT produce any good works, yet he was saved! His last works were THEFT, yet Jesus still promised him Paradise. So we have to conclude..that salvation is based on FAITH ALONE, NOT WORKS!
Another important issue is that the thief, and other similar deathbed confessions, are the exception, not the rule. It really doesn't do much for your position to be continually using the example of the thief as though it proves without a doubt that faith alone saves.
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
Are you suggesting that the thief and deathbed confessions are saved by a DIFFERENT GOSPEL than you and I are? Yes or No?
Of course I'm not. I'm only suggesting that you be careful of what you use to support your position.
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
OK, so there is no misunderstand.. are you then admitting and acknowleding that we and everyone else is saved by the EXACT SAME GOSPEL and method that the thief and deathbed confessions are saved by?
Yes or No?
Not necessarily.
francisdesales
Member
Note, an important issue. You cannot say "did NOT produce any good works", since you clearly don't know what he did prior to the cross. His words on the cross are evidence that he DID produce good works - according to John's Gospel, believing in the Christ Whom God sent is a work! Do you deny that?
Secondly, strictly speaking, he didn't produce any faith.
Does not the Bible state explicitly that Faith alone does not save? Yes or No?
You are so enamoured with bumper sticker theology cliches that you don't realize that faith alone does not save, either. Nothing "alone" saves but God's grace. Without that, you cannot be saved, even if you manufacture all the faith to move mountains.
Regards
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