if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[watchman F]

I think based on a lot of this I can see where the trinity idea comes from. However I still don't' feel right worshiping the name Jesus; I don't know, even if Jesus was divine it was still God in human form. I would rather just worship God, and if they are one in the same I'm sure he won't mind. It's one of those things that I can't completely wrap my mind around so I'll accept that Jesus is my savior and God is God. I don't see the harm in believing otherwise if it just creates confusion.

Is there harm in it? Hmmm, depends on what Jesus meant when He said....

Matthew 10:33 whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
or
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So two question arise what must we deny to deny Him, and who is He? The pharrisees asked them the same question and Jesus answers them....

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

So who does Jesus say He is from the beginning. Well lets see what the WORD say in the beginning.

1:1 In the Beginning God

Jesus has told us who He is from the beginning can we deny it without denying Him. You tell me?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I'm certainly not denying Jesus as my Lord and Savior :/

No i do not think you are. My question is what is Jesus actually saying here in John 8, and what must we deny to deny HIM?

 

[ORwarriOR]

If Jesus required that we believed he was God, I'm sure he would have said it much more clearly. I don't think he would have referred to him and the father as separate entities. I am in no way denying Christ as my Lord and Savior, and that is what he's referring to there. I have accepted him into my life, and I'm doing my best to try and live by his words. However I'll continue to worship God as God, again if they are one in the same, what difference does it make? I'm not denying Christ, I'm worshiping God, and I'm striving to be as much like Christ as I can possibly be.

When he says "Deny me" I'm fairly sure he is referring to those people who deny that he is their savior, and refuse to live by his words.

 

[shad]

If Jesus required that we believed he was God, I'm sure he would have said it much more clearly. I don't think he would have referred to him and the father as separate entities. I am in no way denying Christ as my Lord and Savior, and that is what he's referring to there. I have accepted him into my life, and I'm doing my best to try and live by his words. However I'll continue to worship God as God, again if they are one in the same, what difference does it make? I'm not denying Christ, I'm worshiping God, and I'm striving to be as much like Christ as I can possibly be.

When he says "Deny me" I'm fairly sure he is referring to those people who deny that he is their savior, and refuse to live by his words.

Well said Warrior. Jesus is my Lord, too. And I am serving Him with all my might. Jesus says if we love Jesus, we love God also. I trust Jesus' word. Christianity is not about man-made doctrines which ostracize other believers. Faith without deeds is dead. Faith is doctrine and bad deed is ostracizing in doctrine argument.

 

[watchman F]

If Jesus required that we believed he was God, I'm sure he would have said it much more clearly. I don't think he would have referred to him and the father as separate entities. I am in no way denying Christ as my Lord and Savior, and that is what he's referring to there. I have accepted him into my life, and I'm doing my best to try and live by his words. However I'll continue to worship God as God, again if they are one in the same, what difference does it make? I'm not denying Christ, I'm worshiping God, and I'm striving to be as much like Christ as I can possibly be.

When he says "Deny me" I'm fairly sure he is referring to those people who deny that he is their savior, and refuse to live by his words.

''Fairly sure'', well i hope so for your sake.

I too do not think that you need to believe Jesus is God to get saved. However once we are born again we will begin to study the word, pray, and cultivate a relationship with Jesus. If we do these thing through study and prayer, and by cultivating a relationship with Jesus we will come to realize He is God. Once we realize that then it is our duty to believe it. If one hardens their heart to the truth then we must question their salvation. Also if one gets saved and never reads the bible, prays or pursues a relationship with Jesus we would question their conversion.

 

[Tina]

.
Man, this thread is confusing ! ..... ............


I don't even know who are the Trinitarians, Non-Trinitarians or Anti-Trinitarians ....


:biglol :nag :nod :crazy :D :shades



But I just want to say to those who think that Christ Jesus is not God and is not worthy of worship, ... that the Bible in fact describes Christ as the Holy One, Head of the Church, Emmanuel (God with us), King of kings, Lord of all and True God.


Acts 3:14
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you

Ephesians 1:22
And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church

Ephesians 4:15
but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€

Acts 10:36
The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ — He is Lord of all

1 Timothy 6:15
which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.



:shades ..... :amen

 

[Tina]

.

As well as that, look at how many times Jesus was worshipped in the Bible, and not once did He ever rebuke the worshipers or suggest that he was unworthy of such worship, veneration and adoration.


Matthew 2:11
And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.â€

Matthew 9:18
While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.â€

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.â€

Matthew 15:25
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!â€

Matthew 28:9
And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!†So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

Mark 5:6
When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.

Luke 24:52
And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

John 9:38
Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.


3 2

 

[Sinthesis]

Given a choice, why would anyone choose to place their hope for salvation in the hands of a mere man?

Jesus is not a mere man, He is now Spirit being and sitting right hand of Almighty God. He accomplished His mission given by His Father.

Do you call that a mere man? I don't. He is more than worthy enough to be my Lord.

So you believe Jesus is just a glorified man?

 

[Sinthesis]

As well as that, look at how many times Jesus was worshipped in the Bible, and not once did He ever rebuke the worshipers or suggest that he was unworthy of such worship, veneration and adoration.

Yep, Jesus was even rightly worshiped before He accomplished His mission.

 

[Physicist]

Jason, we were getting off-topic so I am starting that topic here.

if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

Jesus was the Lamb of God and Savior of the world, and He is many other things. Jesus does not say we have to accept Him as one of the trinity. Trinity is not used in the Bible. You are adding your own qualification for salvation. If it was so essential for salvation, why isn't even the word trinity in there?

But the Bible is very clear that Jesus has to be accepted as the Lamb of God and Savior of the world and that without Him no one will be saved, not that He should be accepted as one of the trinity.

I would say that Jesus as the sacrificial lamb is the theme of the John Gospel. I don't think it is a main feature in the Synoptics. Where, for example, in Mark is Jesus compared to the sacrificial lamb?

 

[Mohrb]

Jason, we were getting off-topic so I am starting that topic here.

if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

Jesus was the Lamb of God and Savior of the world, and He is many other things. Jesus does not say we have to accept Him as one of the trinity. Trinity is not used in the Bible. You are adding your own qualification for salvation. If it was so essential for salvation, why isn't even the word trinity in there?

But the Bible is very clear that Jesus has to be accepted as the Lamb of God and Savior of the world and that without Him no one will be saved, not that He should be accepted as one of the trinity.

Indeed. Accepting Jesus as our messiah and as the only-begotten Son of God doesn't by any means necessitate accepting him as God himself. In fact, the two are entirely contradictory. If Jesus states that "The father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God" ... it's kind of obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him forth.

 

[Tina]

.

Indeed. Accepting Jesus as our messiah and as the only-begotten Son of God doesn't by any means necessitate accepting him as God himself. In fact, the two are entirely contradictory.

Well then, let's see how you interprete this Scripture ...

Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If Jesus states that "The father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God" ... it's kind of obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him forth.

Jesus was still walkimg on earth as a Man during this time.

 

[Mysteryman]

.

Indeed. Accepting Jesus as our messiah and as the only-begotten Son of God doesn't by any means necessitate accepting him as God himself. In fact, the two are entirely contradictory.

Well then, let's see how you interprete this Scripture ...

Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If Jesus states that "The father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God" ... it's kind of obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him forth.

Jesus was still walkimg on earth as a Man during this time.

Hi Tina :

"God exhalted him" ------ he did not exhalt himself !

Equal, in what sense ? Equality or Equal is in reference to that which is given. Jesus even said that we would do the same works that he had done and greater works because he goes unto the Father.

This would put us on equal footing with Jesus Christ, and we are not God either !

God --- is a God that changes not.

Jesus Christ, is ----- the same today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is, the Son of God, today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is a reflection of his Father -- "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

 

[Tina]

.

"God exhalted him" ------ he did not exhalt himself !

Equal, in what sense ? Equality or Equal is in reference to that which is given. Jesus even said that we would do the same works that he had done and greater works because he goes unto the Father.

This would put us on equal footing with Jesus Christ, and we are not God either !

God --- is a God that changes not.

Jesus Christ, is ----- the same today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is, the Son of God, today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is a reflection of his Father -- "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

That's according to your own subjective interpretation.


JOHN 20:28 -- And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.

I'm sure verses like this will be ignored by you ....

 

[JudaicChristian]

Well then, let's see how you interprete this Scripture ...

Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality."

 

[westtexas]

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality."

Only when it is used as a noun. Strongs #'s 2471 & 4915
When it is used as an adjective it means---(isos-2470, the same in size, number, quality" etc., is translated "equal" in John 5:18---Vines Concise Dictionary pg. 117)

John 5:18--Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)

the jews sought to kill Jesus because He said He was EQUAL (the same in quality) as God

Westtexas

 

[JudaicChristian]

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality."

Only when it is used as a noun. Strongs #'s 2471 & 4915
When it is used as an adjective it means---(isos-2470, the same in size, number, quality" etc., is translated "equal" in John 5:18---Vines Concise Dictionary pg. 117)

John 5:18--Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)

the jews sought to kill Jesus because He said He was EQUAL (the same in quality) as God

Westtexas

Your statement is illogical because ancient Hebrew and Greek did not have modern English rules. Yahshua never broke the Sabbath, nor did the disciples. Having something to eat is not harvesting the field. See:

Matthew 12
Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

 

[jasoncran]

one wasnt supposed to gather on the sabbath, but the lord know that with some rules there are exceptions.

 

[JudaicChristian]

one wasnt supposed to gather on the sabbath, but the lord know that with some rules there are exceptions.

I do not know what you are talking about. The people of God have always gathered on the Sabbath.

 

[jasoncran]

one wasnt supposed to gather on the sabbath, but the lord know that with some rules there are exceptions.

I do not know what you are talking about. The people of God have always gathered on the Sabbath.

gathered as glean the wheat. the fruit, that takes LABOR, to do that.

that is what the problem was. the disciples being poor, didnt have a farm or persons to buy from so they could gather fruit that wasnt gleaned by ot law, but not on the sabaath.

hmm i think(we dont know) that the lord had them doing work for him and he provided for them, by telling them go into the fields.

 

[JudaicChristian]

gathered as in gleaning the wheat. the fruit, that takes LABOR, to do that.

that is what the problem was. the disciples being poor, didnt have a farm or persons to buy from so they could gather fruit that wasnt gleaned by ot law, but not on the sabaath.

hmm i think(we dont know) that the lord had them doing work for him and he provided for them, by telling them go into the fields.

Gleaning is harvesting what is left over. The disciples were passing through the field, and they took only what they were to eat then, and nothing more. For more would have been to be harvesting the field for the gleanings.