Important question

[Bob47379]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

 

[WIP]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

How do you know that one's financial situation has anything to do with whether or not they hear the gospel? A person doesn't have to be wealthy to hear the gospel. Do you agree there are those in the Old Testament that are in heaven? Moses and Elijah come to mind. Yet, I think it's safe to say they never heard the gospel of Jesus.

I figure it this way. There are some things for which we may never know the answers to in this life but we can trust that God has everything under control. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts and as far as heaven is above the earth so are His ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Who are we to question God? (See Job 38:1-40:2)

 

[crossnote]

what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

(1Co 1:26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

As far as those who have never heard, it is all the more reason to get out of our comfort zone and proclaim the Gospel.

 

[Who Me]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

That you havequestions about your faith and about Christianity is great.
We are supost to be able to give a ' reason ' for our faith..
basicly you are asking ' Is God just? '

Well what standard are you using to evaluate God's justice compared to your justice?
May I suggest you read https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/on-gods-justice-and-love

there is also creation.com question about Gods justice:-

Justice mercy

We answer a question about God’s justice and whether it is loving for God to require belief to be saved.

creation.com

 

[Luminous_Rose]

God allows us to each free will to choose Him or deny Him. Some people will choose to devote their life to God and others won't. God perhaps might know the outcome, but the person clearly made their choice. I do believe we have multiple choices sitting in front of us each day and each of those choices leads somewhere.

God can send someone to Hell just as any law-abiding judge could throw a murderer in prison. It's to uphold the law.

God gave us laws to live by, the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20 is a good starting point as we can use this as a mirror to examine how much sin we have in our life and we all fall short. This is why we need Jesus Christ, because we aren't perfect by ourselves and can't do this all alone.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

Not all Christians believe that, but mainline. First of all, without going too much into the nature of the fire, the idea the bible presents is that fire destroys the chaff, and that which is like gold is purified. It lasts the fire. While I don't disagree with an actual fire one day (as the earth will be burnt up according to the bible), is that fire just the fire of God? Sinners can't face God without perishing. The fire is described as everlasting the way the Lord is everlasting. Shekinah, Aish of the Lord. aka "Spirit of God" in the OT, and Holy Spirit as called by Christians. This is why we will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. The passage talks about chaff being burnt up, as I just stated.

God does not allow people to not become Christians. We are drawn by the Spirit and no man can even come to God unless He draws them, but then he will draw all men unto Him. The issue is when?? Not everyone living in this age may be drawn, and some may not have heard the true gospel (thus the predestination vs free choice debate which is pointless) . So the Church are the firstfruits of the Lord's salvation destined to rule and reign in the millennium to teach the rest of the world. The rest will be saved later, and even after that. I personally believe in the feasts of the Lord in Leviticus 23 which outlines prophetically the redemption of mankind, where men are called and saved on the Lord's timing at various stages: The feast of Firstfruits (Pentecost) is the church in this age, Tabernacles for the rest of the world (don't forget all Israel will be saved) after Christ's return, and lastly the Last Great Day foreshadowing the Great White Throne Judgement. In each of these feasts, various portions of mankind are saved (including Israel Ezekiel 37 -dry bones), and given a chance. Note this is not their "second chance" but rather as the scripture says if today you hear his voice harden not your heart -- it's their first chance. God will give everyone a chance in His time for them, and they have to choose Him or their own way. While God may be merciful to keep calling a person, I don't see anything where God is obligated. What if a person has questions and resists at first? you may ask. Well, this is my opinion but nothing saying how long a calling lasts. God understands each of us and what it takes to get through. I'm talking after all the facts presented a person makes a conscious, deliberate rejection.

Your questions, Bob are good but if what you ask is what you believe is being taught, then it's not biblical. What I am saying is you may have to learn it all over again. Not pinning the blame on you at all, but you need to go to the source (bible) and not assume the source is saying what you are hearing.

 

[Exeter]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

This fallen world has no eternal value and is predestined for destruction, which is why we all need salvation unto eternal life. The component of Christ's suffering and sacrifice so everyone can be saved is sufficient for everyone to be saved, but since some stubborn, hard-hearted reprobates refuse to accept that they need to be saved and reject the gift of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, what is sufficient for all is only efficient for some.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (19) because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (21) because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[PurpleClover]

Yet, I think it's safe to say they never heard the gospel of Jesus.

But the Bible states the *only* way to salvation is through Jesus.

So yes, this is a question I have also. Was no one saved before Jesus came to Earth?

 

[PurpleClover]

Who are we to question God?

Beings with questioning, inquisitive, curious minds. What sort of all-loving God would create us in exactly this way and then condemn our questioning, our inquisitiveness, our curiosity??

 

[Exeter]

But the Bible states the *only* way to salvation is through Jesus.

So yes, this is a question I have also. Was no one saved before Jesus came to Earth?

This passage might help answer your question. It's well work studying commentaries on it.

1Pe 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (6) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, (7) that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, (8) whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, (9) receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. (10) Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, (11) searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (12) To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

 

[eddif]

But the Bible states the *only* way to salvation is through Jesus.

So yes, this is a question I have also. Was no one saved before Jesus came to Earth?

Welcome aboard.

Revelation 3:8 kjv
8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The plan for salvation was known from the foundation of the world. It took quite a long time before the prophetic word became flesh.

Relax. Wait till I read more of your posts.

Tell me of the hidden man of the heart.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[WIP]

But the Bible states the *only* way to salvation is through Jesus.

So yes, this is a question I have also. Was no one saved before Jesus came to Earth?

I provided a couple examples of persons that I believe were saved before Jesus walked the earth. In the book of Hebrews, chapter 11, Scripture speaks about a few more from the Old Testament whose faith was counted as righteousness before God.

The gospel of John, the first chapter, begins with....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:1-4 NKJV

Then John goes on to say...
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NKJV

In John's gospel here the word "Word" refers to Jesus. This is why it is capitalized in the New King James Version I quoted from. It tells us that Jesus has always been and that He is God.

Jesus also says this about Himself....
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 8:57-59 NKJV

"I AM" is the name God gave to Moses when he asked God what His name was. See Exodus, chapter 3, verse 14. Jesus referred to Himself using that same name in the Scripture quote above and for this the Jews tried to kill him for blasphemy.

In Romans 1:20 it says...
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. NKJV

None of us has an excuse.

 

[WIP]

Beings with questioning, inquisitive, curious minds. What sort of all-loving God would create us in exactly this way and then condemn our questioning, our inquisitiveness, our curiosity??

I wasn't saying that we are not to be inquisitive. In fact, Jesus' own disciples asked Him many questions. I was speaking about questioning God's authority and power, particularly over ourselves. This is where faith or trust enters the picture. The way I think about this is very much the way I see children.

Before they begin to think for themselves and question rules and authority, they trust their parents for everything. They trust their parents to feed them, care for them, protect them, change their diapers, and the list goes on. This is the kind of trust I believe we should have with God. Like the lyrics from Carrie Underwood's song, "Jesus, Take the Wheel" we need to give control back to God and let Him "Take the Wheel" in our lives.

Jesus said....
25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble."
Matthew 6:25-34 NKJV

A friend of mine and his wife are both recovering alcoholics. On their kitchen wall they have a small chalkboard and to daily remind them they wrote on that chalkboard...

"Edens, remember,
I have
everything
under control.
....God."

Every time I see that chalkboard, it serves as a great reminder for me as well.

Hope this makes sense and helps a little.

God Bless.

 

[D-D-W]

But the Bible states the *only* way to salvation is through Jesus.
So yes, this is a question I have also. Was no one saved before Jesus came to Earth?

The church I grew up in taught that everyone who died before the thief on the cross, was burning in hell, including all of the OT authors. "Salvation in no other name" and all. Acts 4:12

 

[eddif]

The church I grew up in taught that everyone who died before the thief on the cross, was burning in hell, including all of the OT authors. "Salvation in no other name" and all. Acts 4:12

1 Peter 3:17 Kjv
17. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Preaching to those in Abraham’s bosom he would have preached the gospel. At he resurrection those who received the Gospel shall have on their wedding garments.

Jesus thus reached back in time to those Jewish person who were in the grave.

This conversation has occurred before.

Replacement theology is wrong. Jesus brought those to God by his power and love.

eddif

 

[D-D-W]

Oh I agree Eddif.

But what they taught was based on the phrase "there is salvation in no other name." So unless they specifically knew the name Jesus before they died, they were doomed. Or so they thought.

I am not sure "replacement theology" had anything to do with it. If no one, not even the authors of scripture, were saved, what was being replaced?

 

[tim-from-pa]

The church I grew up in taught that everyone who died before the thief on the cross, was burning in hell, including all of the OT authors. "Salvation in no other name" and all. Acts 4:12

Wow. That would definitely turn people off. There is no other name to be saved in, but then the Lord has to call that person at some future point in time.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

It's not God that punishes or sends anyone to hell, but that of their own freewill choices they make in rejecting God and His Son Christ Jesus that have damned themselves.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We were created to be holy and blameless before Him from the foundation of the world, but again, many have turned to their own iniquities when sin entered the hearts of man.


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith comes by hearing and accepting the word of God since the beginning of the creation of man, but yet even the rich and the poor refuse to believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is no excuse for not hearing the preaching of Christ, especially today when all you have to do is turn on a radio, TV, the computer or enter through the doors of your local Church no matter what part of the world you live in.

Doubting one's faith only comes by the thoughts that Satan likes to plant in your mind as all he wats to do is steal it from you.

 

[hawkman]

The church I grew up in taught that everyone who died before the thief on the cross, was burning in hell, including all of the OT authors. "Salvation in no other name" and all. Acts 4:12

:shock As they say in my part of the world , " Your pulling my leg ! "

 

[eddif]

I'm debating my faith because of the existence of hell if God was all seeing all powerful and all knowing why would he allow some people to never become Christians by that logic he knew they would go to hell but made them anyway and what about people who live in extreme poverty and never even hear about Christianity in their life do they also go to he'll forever this feels like a massive plot hole also im not looking to start a argument just a genuine question

Well. We are sort of trying to give answers.
Jesus was slain from the creation of the world, but Jesus was not revealed yet.
The creation (evidently in the mind of God) gives enough information to guide with symbolism , enough information about the nature of God. Nature ( if interpreted correctly) gives enough information to guide life. God explained what was good and what was bad to Adam and Eve.
Exeter Post 7 red text of Roman’s 1 says the wrath of God from heaven is seen. They had two trees a good tree and a bad tree. They were told which to eat from and which to avoid. God had made them living thinking souls. When they disobeyed, his wrath was seen. (get out of the garden). So mankind was told from the start what to do and what not to not do, and punishment would come if instructions were not followed.

Poverty causes sin ( steal to eat).
Riches cause us to (ignore God).
Lust of other things causes us to (disobey God).
Redneck description.

Have I sinned? Yes. Do I confess my sin yes.
Did Jesus die for our sin? Yes.

Man does not think like God by man’s nature. We have to be helped. Jesus became a quickening spirit. He stands at the door of our life and offers to enter us. I think God does a lot to try and help us.

Mississippi redneck
eddif