Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[GodsGrace]

mailmandan

part 2 of 2

In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Where does Romans 10:16 say OBEYED?

Here is
Romans 10:16
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless * they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Paul is speaking about hearing the good news...he's talking about preaching the gospel to unbelievers.
Not all who hear the good news will accept it.
Nothing here about disobeying.
However, you have proved a point I've been making with you for a long time now:
You don't believe that obedience is necessary...
or you would not have made the above statement re Romans 10:16....

Now the King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Answered above.
The redering makes no difference at all and I've explained why.

WHY do you fight this so?
If you believe we are to do good works - why not just say so?

Perhaps because you don't believe it's necessary....
This would be disobedience to NT teaching.

There are many verses re good works....
But I'd say that James explains it the best:


James 2:14-26
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
JAMES IS SAYING THAT FAITH ALONE WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE.
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
FAITH ALONE, WITHOUT GOOD WORKS, IS DEAD.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
THERE CAN BE NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE....
THIS MEANS THAT WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH...
BUT NOT ONLY FAITH, ALSO BY OUR WORKS AFTER SALVATION.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
AGAIN, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
Faith without works is dead....
James is plainly saying that FAITH ALONE will not work.
Works are ALSO necessary.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,
I can't go back and read all the posts.
I THINK those 3 posters must mean something different.
We are saved by faith alone,,,no amount of good works can save a person
if they don't have faith in God.

The OP definitely believes that works are necessary for justification. I've discussed it with him ad nauseam in several threads. The other two could just be confused, not having a solid understanding of theology.

An atheist could do many good works, but his unbelief will hold him back from salvation...
or, at least, that's what the NT teaches.

Agreed.

LOL
I've been back and forth with mailmandan for about 10 years now and I don't think we agree.
There's a nuance here that we can't seem to dismantle.

Ah. Okay.

Here's why: I keep asking this question and he keeps evading it .
The question is this:
Are we required to do good works after salvation?
My answer is YES. The NT clearly teaches that we are to obey...if we obey we will be doing good works.
Jesus said this, Paul, James -- all the writers.

Agreed.

Would YOU have a problem with a simple YES?

No. lol

 

[Free]

mailmandan

Where does Romans 10:16 say OBEYED?

Here is
Romans 10:16
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless * they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Paul is speaking about hearing the good news...he's talking about preaching the gospel to unbelievers.
Not all who hear the good news will accept it.
Nothing here about disobeying.
However, you have proved a point I've been making with you for a long time now:
You don't believe that obedience is necessary...
or you would not have made the above statement re Romans 10:16....

For the record:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (KJV)

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” (ESV)

The Greek word, hupakouó or hypakouō, is most often translated as "obey" or a derivative, but also may be translated "heed."

https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm


This is a good reminder for all that putting the Bible version is required, in part to avoid such confusion, in part because copyrights require it. Even for free domain versions, it can help to prevent confusion.

 

[Free]

I disagree.

The fact that all the different meanings he listed have the word righteous in them, then we can logically conclude that righteous is the base or foundational meaning of justified.

But, you're clearly ignoring the actual meanings themselves, that they're actually different. That is not how language works. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying "all killing is murder" because "killing" is common to "self-defence," "involuntary manslaughter," and "murder."

Again, I ask you to honestly answer my question.

Would Abraham have been justified if he disobeyed the Lord?

I already did. If Abraham had disobeyed God, it would have been evidence he wasn't justified. He was not declared righteous based on his obedience, but on having believed the promise.

Obedience is required for justification; the obedience of faith.

Please succinctly define "the obedience of faith."

Not good works.

Surely you don’t believe people who are disobedient to God are justified?

They way we obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.

Those who disobey the Gospel are not justified.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

Changing "works" to "obedience" doesn't work, since to be obedient is to do work(s). Paul very clearly states, repeatedly, that we are not justified by any works, which would include obedience. Being declared righteous (justified), the moment of initial salvation when Christ's righteousness is imputed, is a free gift of God by his grace which receive by faith. We can't even believe apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. It is all a work of God from start to finish.

 

[for_his_glory]

To say faith without works is dead is the same as saying faith without love is dead for the works we do unto the Lord are our labor of love for others as in Matthew 25:34-40. It's the same labor of love Christ did for us. Faith is action and if it has no fruit it is a false faith. James is not speaking about one who has faith, but one who claims to have faith. It's like giving lip service, but the heart is empty and void of God. Just because one claims to have faith doesn't mean they do, especially if there is no fruit to judge in them as that is how we judge one another, Matthew 7:15-23. We are saved by faith (Christ Jesus) through that of Gods grace (favor) as we can not earn it, but confess it.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[JLB]

If Abraham truly believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6, (he did, and it was) then he would not have disobeyed God in Genesis 22. To disobey God here would have required a lack of faith.

My question to you was this…

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified if he disobeyed God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Offering his son Isaac on the altar was a direct responds of obedience to God; the “work” or action of obedience.

 

[JLB]

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1)
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

Yes exactly. Justified by faith means obedience to do what God speaks to you to do.

Hearing God speak to you is how we receive faith from Him.

Doing what He says is how we are justified.

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


The term “by faith” literally means God spoke to a person, in which the received faith, and the person obeyed what God spoke to them to do.


Example:

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah, warning him of the flood, and instructed him to build the Ark.

Noah moved with godly fear and obeyed.

Because he obeyed, he was right with God; the righteousness according to faith; the obedience of faith.


Example:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Again, same thing. God spoke to Abraham to go out.
Abraham was justified, because he obeyed; the obedience of faith.


This is exactly what James teaches in James 2:21

The same principle of faith.

 

[JLB]

But, you're clearly ignoring the actual meanings themselves, that they're actually different. That is not how language works. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying "all killing is murder" because "killing" is common to "self-defence," "involuntary manslaughter," and "murder."

I’m ignoring nothing.

Justified carries the common definition of righteous.

Just as murder, kill and manslaughter carry the common meaning of death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James 2:14-26
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
JAMES IS SAYING THAT FAITH ALONE WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE.

Yes, faith that is alone will not save anyone, but it is only by faith, apart from works, that a man is imputed righteousness (made righteous).

THERE CAN BE NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.

Yes, we all agree on that. But the works produced by faith play no role in making you righteous.

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE....

Yes, 'not by faith alone'.
Faith in God's forgiveness makes you righteous.
Works show you to have the righteousness of faith.

As is being explained to you, justified has more than one definition. It can mean to be made righteous, and it can mean to be shown to be righteous (context indicates which meaning is being used). And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works, and not just by faith.

James is plainly saying that FAITH ALONE will not work.

Correct. Because the faith that justifies apart from works makes itself evident in what it does. When that evidence is absent, so is the faith that produces it. Therefore, no justification by faith has occurred by which to produce works.

Works are ALSO necessary.

Yes, works are necessary, but not to make you righteous in God's sight, but as the expected proof of the faith you claim you have. A claim to faith that can not be validated by works of righteousness is a false claim to faith. That's why faith that is alone, producing no works, can not save you. It's not really faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doing what He says is how we are justified.

Which definition of 'justified' are you referring to here?

We can't agree with you until we know which definition you are referring to.

 

[Free]

I’m ignoring nothing.

You're ignoring the most central thing to this entire discussion: the very basics of language and communication--that words can have multiple meanings that cannot necessarily be used in different contexts.

Justified carries the common definition of righteous.

Of course, but that doesn't tell us which definition is used where. You're simply not taking theology seriously, which is unfortunate.

Just as murder, kill and manslaughter carry the common meaning of death.

Which is to say nothing at all, since the definitions of "murder" and "involuntary manslaughter" are very different, hence the different punishments, and because there are numerous ways of death apart from being killed by someone else.

If you're not going to take language, Bible study, or theology seriously, then this discussion, indeed this forum, isn't for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, faith that is alone will not save anyone, but it is only by faith, apart from works, that a man is imputed righteousness (made righteous).


Yes, we all agree on that. But the works produced by faith play no role in making you righteous.


Yes, 'not by faith alone'.
Faith in God's forgiveness makes you righteous.
Works show you to have the righteousness of faith.

As is being explained to you, justified has more than one definition. It can mean to be made righteous, and it can mean to be shown to be righteous (context indicates which meaning is being used). And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works, and not just by faith.


Correct. Because the faith that justifies apart from works makes itself evident in what it does. When that evidence is absent, so is the faith that produces it. Therefore, no justification by faith has occurred by which to produce works.


Yes, works are necessary, but not to make you righteous in God's sight, but as the expected proof of the faith you claim you have. A claim to faith that can not be validated by works of righteousness is a false claim to faith. That's why faith that is alone, producing no works, can not save you. It's not really faith.

Been on this merry-go-round a long time now J.

Here's my question for you, which I've asked and never received a one word reply:
IS IT REQUIRED OF US TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?
AFTER SALVATION.

My reply is a resounding YES.

Works do not save us.
Faith saves us.

What happens AFTER faith?
Are we required to do good works?
Are we asked to do good works by Jesus?
When JESUS asks something,,,does it become a command?

If we believe do we also have to obey?
Or could we believe but not obey?

Many questions...but there's a nuance here we can't seem to agree on.
(I don't mean you and me....but those that SEEM to believe in faith alone).

 

[GodsGrace]

For the record:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (KJV)

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” (ESV)

The Greek word, hupakouó or hypakouō, is most often translated as "obey" or a derivative, but also may be translated "heed."

https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm


This is a good reminder for all that putting the Bible version is required, in part to avoid such confusion, in part because copyrights require it. Even for free domain versions, it can help to prevent confusion.

Obey and heed mean the same.
I'll try to remember to add the version!

(this is the least of the discussions the other member and I have had).

 

[mailmandan]

For the record:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (KJV)

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” (ESV)

The Greek word, hupakouó or hypakouō, is most often translated as "obey" or a derivative, but also may be translated "heed."

https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm

This is a good reminder for all that putting the Bible version is required, in part to avoid such confusion, in part because copyrights require it. Even for free domain versions, it can help to prevent confusion.

Yes, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. (Acts 15:7-9) The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan

part 2 of 2

Where does Romans 10:16 say OBEYED?

Here is
Romans 10:16
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless * they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Paul is speaking about hearing the good news...he's talking about preaching the gospel to unbelievers.
Not all who hear the good news will accept it.
Nothing here about disobeying.

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

However, you have proved a point I've been making with you for a long time now:
You don't believe that obedience is necessary...
or you would not have made the above statement re Romans 10:16....

You could never be obedient enough to merit eternal life by works but you coulc obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Enough with your straw man argument about obedience.

Answered above.
The redering makes no difference at all and I've explained why.

WHY do you fight this so?
If you believe we are to do good works - why not just say so?

We are to do good works BECAUSE we are saved and not in order to become.

Perhaps because you don't believe it's necessary....
This would be disobedience to NT teaching.

Why do you continue with these loaded questions and statements about obedience? Believers are not 100% obedient 100% of the time, (1 John 1:8-10) but that does not mean they are characterized by disobedience either. (Ephesians 2:2) Only believers have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16: 10:16) and are saved. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

There are many verses re good works....

Yet how many of those verses say we are saved by good works?

But I'd say that James explains it the best:

James 2:14-26
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
JAMES IS SAYING THAT FAITH ALONE WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE.
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
FAITH ALONE, WITHOUT GOOD WORKS, IS DEAD.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
THERE CAN BE NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE....
THIS MEANS THAT WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH...
BUT NOT ONLY FAITH, ALSO BY OUR WORKS AFTER SALVATION.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
AGAIN, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
Faith without works is dead....
James is plainly saying that FAITH ALONE will not work.
Works are ALSO necessary.

Just admit it. You teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Continued...

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In regard to "faith being alone" (James 2:17) or "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" has more than one meaning depending on the context:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Thayer's Greek: 1344. δικαιόω (dikaioó) -- to show to be righteous, declare righteous

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Free]

Yes, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. (Acts 15:7-9) The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I was simply providing a couple of translations which used "obeyed."

You believe that we are declared righteous only by grace, through faith, correct? Do you believe that once justified, we are to be obedient by doing good works?

 

[JLB]

You're ignoring the most central thing to this entire discussion: the very basics of language and communication--that words can have multiple meanings that cannot necessarily be used in different contexts.

I already gave you the open and shut answer.

Justified carries the common definition of righteous.

If someone decides “shown to be righteous” or “declared to be righteous” that’s up to them.

I’m saying that the basic, foundational meaning of justified is righteous.

Just as murder, kill and manslaughter carry the common meaning of death.

Do you agree or disagree with my answer, that the common meaning of kill, murder, and manslaughter is death?

 

[JLB]

Which definition of 'justified' are you referring to here?

We can't agree with you until we know which definition you are referring to.

Justified carries the common definition of righteous.

If someone decides “shown to be righteous” or “declared to be righteous” that’s up to them.

I’m saying that the basic, foundational meaning of justified is righteous.

I hope this clarifies my stance on the meaning of justified.


Do you believe Abraham would be justified if he disobeyed God?

 

[JLB]

Of course, but that doesn't tell us which definition is used where. You're simply not taking theology seriously, which is unfortunate.

I take the scriptures very seriously.

As far as what you call “Theology” your free to make whatever derogatory comments about me you like.

I answered your question where you gave the example of killing, murder, and manslaughter.

Maybe you could answer my question?


Do you believe Abraham would be justified if he disobeyed God?