Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

Grace alone... then you say faith alone.

Which one is it?

 

[JLB]

"It is by Grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves it is a gift of God not the result of works lest any man should boast."

Here we see grace and faith working together, not independent of each other.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.

The "work" that faith must have is obedience; the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

 

[mailmandan]

Here is what you stated in post 336.

That’s not an answer to my question. That is not even the subject scripture being discussed.

That is an answer to your question. It's just not the answer you were looking for.

Here was my question.

Do you believe Abraham would be justified if he disobeyed God?

Here is the scripture?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

I will add more to my question to make make it easier for you to answer.

Do you believe Abraham would be justified if he disobeyed God when He commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac on the altar?

Just as Free said: If Abraham had disobeyed God, it would have been evidence he wasn't justified. He was not declared righteous based on his obedience, but on having believed the promise.

Here’s my answer:

No. Abraham would not have been justified if he disobeyed God.

I agree with Free. If Abraham disobeyed God in Genesis 22 it would have demonstrated a lack of faith in the promise in Genesis 15:5-6 and he would not have been justified in either sense but of course that was not the case.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Dan,
There is ALSO the evidence of faith.
But pay attention to what that evidence means:

NO EVIDENCE = NO SALVATION

If by works we want to say that they are the EVIDENCE of our salvation...
then NO WORKS means that we are NOT saved.

Easy. Won't take pages like we usually do.

So, I'd say that, yes, IF we are a believer...
we are REQUIRED to do good works.

IF we don't, then we most probably are not saved.

As to the few posts I've read on THE WORKS OF THE LAW....

Please let's not confuse the works of THE LAW...
with GOOD WORKS.

James is speaking about being saved by faith and good works...
NOT
faith and works of the law.

We are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE.
AFTER we have been justified by GOD (For Carry_Your_Name - who else would we be justified by??)
THEN
we are required to do good works.

Do we REALLY need scripture?
Were we created for good works or not?
Ephesians 2:10

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Yes exactly. Justified by faith means obedience to do what God speaks to you to do.

Don't confuse what God speaks for us to do in order to become saved (John 6:40) with what God speaks for us to do after we have been saved. This confusion on your part in regard to obedience culminates in salvation by works.

Hearing God speak to you is how we receive faith from Him.

Doing what He says is how we are justified.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17) Doing what He says in regard to obtaining salvation is how we are justified/accounted as righteous. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

The obedience of faith is not salvation by works.

The term “by faith” literally means God spoke to a person, in which the received faith, and the person obeyed what God spoke to them to do

You seem to redefine faith "as" obedience/works. I made that same error prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

Example:

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah, warning him of the flood, and instructed him to build the Ark.

Noah moved with godly fear and obeyed.

Because he obeyed, he was right with God; the righteousness according to faith; the obedience of faith.

There is a difference between being saved by faith then afterwards accomplishing something by or out of faith. It was by or out of faith that Noah built the ark, yet prior to that, Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man (Genesis 6:8,9) and a preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.

Example:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Again, same thing. God spoke to Abraham to go out.
Abraham was justified, because he obeyed; the obedience of faith.

It was by or out of faith that Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance but that is not the end of the story. It was not until Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed in the Lord that his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Also see Romans 4:2-3. You turn the obedience of faith into salvation by obedience/works that "follows" faith which is a false gospel.

This is exactly what James teaches in James 2:21

The same principle of faith.

You can't seem to make a distinction between faith and obedience/works which follow and are produced out of faith. You wrap both faith and obedience/works up in a package then simply stamp faith on the package.

 

[onlysaved]

Grace alone... then you say faith alone.

Which one is it?

By grace through faith just like the Bible says. If it were by God's grace alone then everyone would be saved apart from faith.
We are saved by grace alone, the vehicle of that grace is faith, the object of that faith is Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

James is speaking about being saved by faith and good works...
NOT
faith and works of the law.

There it is! Salvation by faith AND GOOD WORKS. BTW when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

We agree. You could stop repeating this and get to the core of the misunderstanding.

You just demonstrated the core of the misunderstanding above.

OK...but I don't know what a nominal Christian is.

A "nominal" Christian is someone who is a Christian "in name only." A pseudo-Christian.

One is either a Christian or he is not.

True but "nominal" Christians outnumber genuine Christians worldwide by far.

OK
And here is where we separate.
You say we WILL do good works.
Really?

Really. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23; 7:17) Are you suggesting there are genuine Christians who produce no good works at all?

With all this talk about faith alone many express the idea that Jesus did it ALL,,,
and man needs do NOTHING at all for his salvation.
So do you disgree with the above statement?

There is nothing that man could do to add to what Christ has already done. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. This does not mean there is nothing we can do in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. We must receive it through faith. You seem determined to do something in order to help Christ save you and take credit (at least in part).

If you DO,,,then you should stop saying that we WILL do good works
and begin saying, as I do, that we MUST do good works.

Everything with you is must or else. What happened to doing good works out of love and gratitude for the Lord? That is what motivates me to do good works and not fear and bondage to insecurity.

Otherwise the message of the NT will NOT get through to some persons.

And
IF they disobey, are they still saved?
Can a person disobey God all their life and still be saved?

No. A life characterized by disobedience demonstrates unbelief. This does not mean that a genuine believer can never disobey God at all. We are not sinless and perfect 100% of the time but the life of a genuine believer is characterized by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

YOU are encouraging disobedience Dan.

Straw man argument.

Right.
And look at the verse you posted,
Titus 3:8......THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.....
(your wording)....

Sounds like a warning.
We SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.

Should is not must or else! Ephesians 2:10 also says we should walk in good works. That sounds more like encouragement to me.

It doesn't sound like something we will just automatically do when and IF we want to....
but it sounds like something we NEED to do. To be CAREFUL about something is an inherent warning.

This demonstrates what you are really trusting in for salvation.

I'd have to say that we must do good works to REMAIN saved.
If we disobey the NT can we continue to be saved?
I'd say this is at the core of all our discussions.

There it is! Type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door. Apparently, you don't fully trust in Christ to save you, but you also trust in works to help Christ keep you saved. From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

If God COMMANDS something (in this case good works)...
I'd say we are FORCED to do what is commanded.
So I disagree with this part of your understanding of the NT.

Forced? You make God out to sound like a tyrant. What happened to love? Faith works/expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6) and not fear and bondage. You are bringing up painful memories for me from my childhood when I was still attending the Roman Catholic church. Back then, prior to my conversion, I saw God as a tyrant who could not wait to punish me every time I messed up. That is a miserable way to try and live the Christian life!

Again....we are either saved or not.
Good works are surely a sign of salvation...

Yes, sign of salvation. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith.

so, again...
NO WORKS = NO SALVATION
OBEDIENCE = SALVATION

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No good works at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Same old argument Dan.
John 3:36 can be translated using BELIEVE in both instances.
It doesn't matter.
BELIEVE means TO OBEY.

In this case to obey means to choose to believe in the Son. Believe is not defined as obedience in general though. That is where you cross the line into salvation by works.

IF we believe in Jesus,,,if means we will OBEY HIM.

We obey Him by choosing to believe in Him here. If believe in Jesus meant we obey Him 24/7 flawlessly, then in that case, nobody could say they truly believe in Jesus.

In Greek to disobey means to disbelieve, and V V.

I don't think it's necessary to use the Greek language...the NT is very clear on this.

I have seen certain folks use John 3:36 to manipulate people to adhere to a life of legalistic, fear-based obedience by convincing people that it is not belief alone that saves but belief plus obedience to Jesus (works) that saves us.
The Greek word for "not obey" in John 3:36 is used throughout the scriptures to refer to the rejection of Jesus as the Christ or disbelief in Jesus. The Greek word in John 3:36 is apeitheó which means to disbelieve, to reject, to refuse to believe. This describes the person who rejects Jesus through disbelief.

The HCSB translation sums it up nicely: "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." There is your disobedience in John 3:36--refusing to believe in the Son.

And

Colossians 2:23-24 kills your idea that good works are done for men...to show our salvation:
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

When did I say that good works are done for men? In context, Paul's point here is that the foods or other items that false teachers treat as very important are only temporary. Whether we use them, or avoid them, physical things and certain laws are only a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. This has nothing to do with being shown to be righteous by works before God and man. (James 2:18)

 

[mailmandan]

By grace through faith just like the Bible says. If it were by God's grace alone then everyone would be saved apart from faith.
We are saved by grace alone, the vehicle of that grace is faith, the object of that faith is Christ.

I see what you mean. By grace (unmerited favor) alone (not grace plus merited favor) through faith (in Jesus Christ alone) not faith plus works. Faith alone does not eliminate the fact that it is by grace (God's unmerited favor) in the first place that we are saved through faith. It just means that we are saved the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Grace is God's part and faith is our part.

 

[JLB]

An answer that doesn’t address the point.

My answer addressed your narrative that words have different nuances of meanings.

Kill, murder, manslaughter are words that carry different meanings… agreed.

But, they all have in common the word (and meaning) of death.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Justified, as Jethro Bodine pointed out is a verb.

Justified, as we are referring to it in the Bible is a verb. So saying 'justified' means 'righteous' does not clarify the action associated with the verb 'justified' and whether or not you are referring to the action of being made righteous, or being shown to be righteous.

Whether Abraham was being made righteous or was shown to be righteous matters not to me. That only point I was making is both meanings (nuances) carry the common meaning of
righteous, (shown to be righteous or being made righteous).

If you believe this word “justified” carries a completely different meaning and has nothing to do at all with the word righteous then please share with us what is you personally believe the word “justified” G1344 dikaioo means to you?

From the Strong’s Concordance I provided a screenshot that shows three nuances of this word:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[JLB]

By grace through faith just like the Bible says. If it were by God's grace alone then everyone would be saved apart from faith.
We are saved by grace alone, the vehicle of that grace is faith, the object of that faith is Christ.

Yes I agree, it’s not by grace alone, or by faith alone, but rather it’s by grace through faith.

 

[JLB]

That is an answer to your question. It's just not the answer you were looking for.

Just as Free said: If Abraham had disobeyed God, it would have been evidence he wasn't justified. He was not declared righteous based on his obedience, but on having believed the promise.

I agree with Free. If Abraham disobeyed God in Genesis 22 it would have demonstrated a lack of faith in the promise in Genesis 15:5-6 and he would not have been justified in either sense but of course that was not the case.

So is that a no?

Abraham would not have been justified if he disobeyed God?

 

[JLB]

Man is saved through faith and not by works

We are saved by grace through faith.

When we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth the LORD Jesus.

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-20


I think you believe this also.

 

[mailmandan]

So is that a no?

Abraham would not have been justified if he disobeyed God?

It's a no and for the same reason that Free said it was a no.

If Abraham had disobeyed God, it would have been evidence he wasn't justified. He was not declared righteous based on his obedience, but on having believed the promise.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. A lack of obedience in Genesis 22 would have demonstrated a lack of faith in the promise from Genesis 15:5-6 but of course, that was not the case. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[onlysaved]

Here we see grace and faith working together, not independent of each other.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.

The "work" that faith must have is obedience; the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Faith without works is not actual faith. Actual faith is a work all by itself. Thankfulness for that faith leads to obedience and good works.

Again this is very simple. Unless of course one is a pharasie who are more obsesses with public appearance instead of pleasing God.
"Watch out for the yeast of the Pharasies"

God deals with us as individuals each with our own needs and personality.
Examine the difference between Nicodemus and the Rich young ruler.
Both needed salvation, both religious.
One was genuine and only needed faith in Christ ( to be reborn spiritually) The other perfect according to works but loved his riches more than he loved God therefore he needed to ditch his riches and put his faith in God alone.

Putting your faith in Christ alone is the only work that God recognizes for justification. All other works are the ones God does through you. Every other work is rubbish God calls them filthy rags.

 

[JLB]

It's a no and for the same reason that Free said it was a no.

I agree with. No, Abraham wouldn’t have been justified if he disobeyed God.


Amen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whether Abraham was being made righteous or was shown to be righteous matters not to me.

It should matter to you. Because if you think James is saying a man is made righteous by his obedience then you are serving the very works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

 

[JLB]

Faith without works is not actual faith. Actual faith is a work all by itself. Thankfulness for that faith leads to obedience and good works.

Again this is very simple. Unless of course one is a pharasie who are more obsesses with public appearance instead of pleasing God.
"Watch out for the yeast of the Pharasies"

God deals with us as individuals each with our own needs and personality.
Examine the difference between Nicodemus and the Rich young ruler.
Both needed salvation, both religious.
One was genuine and only needed faith in Christ ( to be reborn spiritually) The other perfect according to works but loved his riches more than he loved God therefore he needed to ditch his riches and put his faith in God alone.

Putting your faith in Christ alone is the only work that God recognizes for justification. All other works are the ones God does through you. Every other work is rubbish God calls them filthy rags.

Yes I agree.

Good works can not save us.

The “work” I was illustrating in James 2:21 was obedience; the obedience of faith.

IOW’s obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


Obeying the gospel is confessing Jesus as LORD. That’s the context of Romans 10:16

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

We are saved by grace through faith.

Amen! (Ephesians 2:8)

When we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth the LORD Jesus.

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as some teach. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) upon and after conversion that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-20

I think you believe this also.

I do believe this, when properly interpreted. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

 

[JLB]

It should matter to you. Because if you think James is saying a man is made righteous by his obedience then you are serving the very works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

I believe we are made righteous, the righteousness of faith, by obeying the Gospel… which is confessing with our mouth Jesus is LORD.

This is obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


Obeying the gospel is confessing Jesus as LORD. That’s the context of Romans 10:16

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

 

[JLB]

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as some teach. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) upon and after conversion that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

Yes. We could say we confess with our mouth BECAUSE we believe in our heart.