Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree.
He also didn't commit any sin.

Then stop lecturing on me to "walk as Jesus walked" if you yourself is typing while walking.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then stop lecturing on me to "walk as Jesus walked" if you yourself is typing while walking.

Will your eternal life depend on my behavior ?
No, it will be up to you to manifest the life, and death, of Jesus Christ, all the days of your life here.
I am not your example.
Jesus is.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Will your eternal life depend on my behavior ?
No, it will be up to you to manifest the life, and death, of Jesus Christ, all the days of your life here.
I am not your example.
Jesus is.

Oh really? Aren't you as "sinlessly perfect" as the Lord Jesus himself? Cue Matt. 5:48?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Oh really? Aren't you as "sinlessly perfect" as the Lord Jesus himself? Cue Matt. 5:48?

Yes I am, thanks be to God: but as there hasn't been anything written about me for all who come after me to read or emulate, it would be wise to emulate the One who has had a lot written about His walk.
If you know God, you will walk as He walked. (1 John 2:3-6)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Mahdi is the messiah figure in Islam who'll descend from heaven and kill off all infidels, a similar scenario does take place in Rev. 19 where Jesus will destroy the Beast's army in the final battle of Armageddon, but again, there's a first coming where Jesus came as a suffering servant according to Is. 53, and that part was skipped in Judaism. That doesn't make Judaismwrong though, they don't believe in Jesus because of the pagan influence in Christian practices and the widespread antisemitism, not because of anything written in the bible.

I understand paganism (heresy) influencing congregations which Jesus warned about. I understand hatred against races, which Jesus taught against. I know Jewish people have been turned away from Jesus by false teaching. That's not what I meant.

What I'm saying is, if the Messiah conquered death and said we have eternal life already and we're going off to war against wicked spirits and defeating them all....now.....then when He shows His face again some folks are going to get burnt.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I understand paganism (heresy) influencing congregations which Jesus warned about. I understand hatred against races, which Jesus taught against. I know Jewish people have been turned away from Jesus by false teaching. That's not what I meant.

What I'm saying is, if the Messiah conquered death and said we have eternal life already and we're going off to war against wicked spirits and defeating them all....now.....then when He shows His face again some folks are going to get burnt.

And what I'm saying is, more is caught than taught, more is shown than known. During Jesus's own ministry, nobody believed in him for his teaching or what the Scripture said, the masses, also the religious elites, believed him for the miracles he performed. Jesus himself challenged them to believe in his works and let his work testify his messiahship. That's why work matters. It doesn't earn your salvation, it proves and validates your salvation, and sadly many people, many smart ones still don't understand the difference.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes I am, thanks be to God: but as there hasn't been anything written about me for all who come after me to read or emulate, it would be wise to emulate the One who has had a lot written about His walk.
If you know God, you will walk as He walked. (1 John 2:3-6)

Thanks, but I'd rather emulate that repentful tax collecter than that prideful Pharisee, which is exactly how you sound like, in every one of your posts, because that tax collecter went home "justified", not the Pharisee.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thanks, but I'd rather emulate that repentful tax collecter than that prideful Pharisee, which is exactly how you sound like, in every one of your posts, because that tax collecter went home "justified", not the Pharisee.

He also repented, which if adhered to, will end up with eternal life.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You keep dancing around and repeating the same thing without actually defining what is meant by "justification." Don't be like all the anti-Trinitarians here that argue against the Trinity, but have yet to demonstrate they even know what the doctrine of the Trinity states. Please provide a succinct definition of justification. If you can't define the very thing you're arguing against, then it means that you don't even know what you're arguing against. Which makes me wonder why you would be arguing against it in the first place.

You're right. I'll stop dancing around with you to try and accomodate you for no purpose.

If you want to respond to the original argument, then we can move on.

Anyone that teaches their soul is justified by their faith alone, apart from any works, ceases to be justified, if they ever add works to their faith, since their faith is no more alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is a blatantly false misrepresentation and straw man.

Not if anyone teaches being justified by their faith alone, apart from any works they do in life.

The only straw man here is your useless demands and accusations based upon them.

This is poor reasoning. Your conclusion doesn't follow.

This is poor objection with no reason following.

the things you rail against,

You are a wilful false accuser. You judge people's manner based entirely upon whether you personally agree with them or not.

I'll no longer respond to you, unless you stick to the points of the argument.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No such thing as “faith alone” in the Bible.

Well, there is faith alone in the Bible. It's just judged dead by Christ.

James 2 isn't arguing that no one has faith alone, but only that it is dead to God and man.

I john 3 argues the same against having love in the heart alone, but not in deed and in truth.

Faith and love alone within, is just what people like to thing about themselves and others. But without doing it, then God calls it useless vain imagination alone. It doesn't making anyone good, righteous, nor loving to God nor man.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience in order for faith to be complete and therefore activated to produce the intended divine result.

Exactly.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2 PETER 1 says that until we add the works of virtue, godliness, and charity to our faith, then our faith is also blind.

Trusting in our own faith alone to justify us, is just believing we are righteous only because we beleive what is right, without doing it.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

Believing what is right, is right. But that alone certainly doesn't make anyone righteous. Especially if they are working against what is righteousness.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth unrighteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Free]

You're right. I'll stop dancing around with you to try and accomodate you for no purpose.

If you want to respond to the original argument, then we can move on.

Anyone that teaches their soul is justified by their faith alone, apart from any works, ceases to be justified, if they ever add works to their faith, since their faith is no more alone.

Once again, all your arguments about this are useless unless you actually define what you mean by "justification." I'm not sure why it is that you are unwilling to simply provide a definition for a term you keep using. This is not a difficult request, at all. It seems as though you're trying to argue something you don't understand.

 

[Free]

Not if anyone teaches being justified by their faith alone, apart from any works they do in life.

We are justified by faith alone, apart from works good or bad. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.

The only straw man here is your useless demands and accusations based upon them.

No, there is no straw man on my part. My point is that you cannot be taken seriously if you cannot even provide what you mean by a term you keep using.

This:

"All works must be without faith, so that any obedience to God must only be as by law. They are only for outward blessing rather than cursing.

Works by faith to please and be justified by God, are forbidden, since no faith with works is justified by Christ.

Which is what being justified only by faith alone, is teaching against: Any faith with works, whether good or bad, is not justified by Christ."

is a straw man.

This is poor objection with no reason following.

You're actually correct. I must have been thinking something else. You stated: "Justification only by faith alone, is justification by faith, that must remain alone, and never be with any works at all, wether good or bad."

It is true that justification has nothing to do with works. That is what the Bible teaches and I have provided the verses numerous times.

You are a wilful false accuser. You judge people's manner based entirely upon whether you personally agree with them or not.

Not at all. I judge their manner based on their manner. You stated: "And since we all know the reason for such specialized jsutification, is to justify people still having sinful works, then we see how they must reconcile themselves to a teaching a faith, that must have no works at all..."

That is a sinful judgement on your part. And, the last, underlined bit is a straw man; it is a false accusation based on not understanding what justification means.

I'll no longer respond to you, unless you stick to the points of the argument.

You have no argument, that is my point. You continue to refuse to simply define a term you keep using, you continually misrepresent those you disagree with, you misuse Scripture to "support" your position while ignoring much other Scripture, and you pronounce sinful judgement on those you disagree with.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I get what you're saying, but a changed life is the result of faith. It's the cause. It's the reason for obedience

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46 KJV

True.

James 2 and 1 John 3 are saying that without the obedience and works of love, then the faith has no cause nor reason to it. It's useless and dead to God and man.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

The error of justification by faith alone, is not that no good works are ever done by the believer, but that the believer is still 'doctrinally' justified when not doing good. Christ's justification is not just doctrinal in words alone, but is only justified in doing the truth.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Even as love of God is an action word, so His justification is faith in action.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from any works, is simply trying to believe we have the love, Spirit, and jsutificaiton of Christ, when doing and not doing His good will, when obeying and disobeying His commandment.

1Jo 4:21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

The question is how can anyone believe they are justified with Christ by a faith that is alone, and apart from doing His good will on earth?

People can quibble over words about being justified with works, but not by works. But in the end, the judgment of Scripture is the same: Without doing those good works of faith in God, no man is justified by Christ Jesus.

And so, let the intellectual argument rage about with, by, because of, etc... Having faith in God alone, without doing His good works one earth, is dead to God and justifies no man any more than the devils that believe in one God.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Once again, jsut believing what is right, does not make anyone righteous. Only them doing what is right with God are justified by God.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

 

[RBDERRICK]

Once again, all your arguments about this are useless unless you actually define what you mean by "justification." I'm not sure why it is that you are unwilling to simply provide a definition for a term you keep using. This is not a difficult request, at all. It seems as though you're trying to argue something you don't understand.

Last dance step. I've tried to accomodate your demand several times, and you're not satisfied. I leave that dance floor to you alone.

Anyone that teaches their soul is justified by their faith alone, apart from any works, ceases to be justified, if they ever add works to their faith, since their faith is no more alone.

You can plug in whatever justification, the argument applies only to justification by faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are justified by faith alone, apart from works good or bad. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.

You do. The Bible teaches the opposite.

God's imputed righteousness is without any works of our own. His justification is only by doing His works of faith.

You're actually correct. I must have been thinking something else. You stated: "Justification only by faith alone, is justification by faith, that must remain alone, and never be with any works at all, wether good or bad."

It is true that justification has nothing to do with works.

Then when you add any works to your faith, you are no longer justified by having your faith alone. You now have your faith with works.

If you are still jsutified, then you are now being justified by your faith with works, because it is not any faith alone apart from works.

That is a sinful judgement on your part.

Disagreement is fine. Even calling my arguments sinful. I don't take such things personal, because I only take proofs seriously.

And, the last, underlined bit is a straw man; it is a false accusation based on not understanding what justification means.

So you say. No problem. I only care about proving it by showing the argument is false.

Just disagreeing with it, and saying it's a sinful argument, is neither here nor there with me. I'm only interested in being shown any flaw in it.

You have no argument, that is my point.

Ok. As i've said before, you can move on from a non argument.

You continue to refuse to simply define a term you keep using,

Justification by faith alone is not my term, but that of others. I oppose that doctrine as unbiblical.

and you pronounce sinful judgement on those you disagree with.

Only you have made personal accusations, because you disagree with my arguments. You accuse me of railing on site. And now you accuse me of judging others wickedly.

From the beginning, I make it clear that it is only the teaching I object to, not the teacher. You have taken it personal.

I'll no longer respond to such things, but only report them.

 

[JLB]

Believing what is right, is right. But that alone certainly doesn't make anyone righteous. Especially if they are working against what is righteousness.

 

[Free]

You do. The Bible teaches the opposite.

God's imputed righteousness is without any works of our own. His justification is only by doing His works of faith.

Please explain precisely what you mean by this. Are you actually saying that "God's imputed righteousness is without any works of our own" or are you saying that that is what I am saying?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

True.

James 2 and 1 John 3 are saying that without the obedience and works of love, then the faith has no cause nor reason to it. It's useless and dead to God and man.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

The error of justification by faith alone, is not that no good works are ever done by the believer, but that the believer is still 'doctrinally' justified when not doing good. Christ's justification is not just doctrinal in words alone, but is only justified in doing the truth.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Even as love of God is an action word, so His justification is faith in action.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from any works, is simply trying to believe we have the love, Spirit, and jsutificaiton of Christ, when doing and not doing His good will, when obeying and disobeying His commandment.

1Jo 4:21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

The question is how can anyone believe they are justified with Christ by a faith that is alone, and apart from doing His good will on earth?

People can quibble over words about being justified with works, but not by works. But in the end, the judgment of Scripture is the same: Without doing those good works of faith in God, no man is justified by Christ Jesus.

And so, let the intellectual argument rage about with, by, because of, etc... Having faith in God alone, without doing His good works one earth, is dead to God and justifies no man any more than the devils that believe in one God.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Once again, jsut believing what is right, does not make anyone righteous. Only them doing what is right with God are justified by God.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

I hear you. All of the believers work is supposed to be in honor of God and only He and the individual know if it's genuine.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Even the works we do are not ours.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

God's gives us the measure of faith we need to believe.
The works that come after salvation are His.
God works through us. And through His work, by allowing us to participate in it, our faith is perfected.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz