Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[GodsGrace]

It's not. That's why justification can only be secured through faith, apart from works. Your works will never make you qualified to enter into the kingdom of God. Never. That is an impossible way for a person to enter into the kingdom of God. Just a single stain of unrighteousness ruins the effort completely. Partial righteousness can not get a person into the kingdom of God.


The inheritance is not based on your sanctification. If it was you'd still be found to have fallen woefully short of the righteousness required to enter into and dwell in the kingdom of God.

The ONLY righteousness by which you are eligible to enter into the kingdom is the declaration of righteousness God gifts to a person through faith in Christ, apart from their works.

You say our inheritance is not based on our sanctificatiion?
Are you saying we could walk down an isle...declare Jesus as our Savior,
and then it ends there and there is no sanctification?

So you are admitting that works are NEVER necessary...
not for initial salvation and not for sanctification?

Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Those that debate doing good works, as Jesus instructed us to do, are persons that DENY good works are EVER necessary and lead many astray teaching a false gospel that is not what Jesus taught or any of the writers of the NT.

 

[Rodger]

It means what it means.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith all by itself is dead.
Faith alone is dead.

Self explanatory.


The illustration from the life of Abraham is clear.

The work James refers to is obedience; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law, since the law didn’t come for another 430 years.

Abraham obeyed the voice of the Lord, by which he received faith.

When we hear the Gospel message we can’t just ignore it but we must actually obey it and repent.

Turn to the Lord and confess Him as LORD.

Demonstrate by action, that we believe in Him by obeying the command to repent.

If we don’t obey the Gospel, then we are as those who receive seed by the wayside, because we didn’t believe.

If we truly believe He is Lord then we will confess Him as Lord.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John 12:42

Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

James 2:24 makes the case that those who truly trust in God naturally end up participating in good works. Nowhere does James say that good works must be done to be saved. No where does James even suggest that good works are part of the salvation experience.

As James showed in prior verses, no one can be saved by good works.

What YOU are missing and seemingly unable to understand is that there are NO Works that are to be required for salvation—they are a "symptom" of saving faith.

In verse 22, he used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith. James is urgently making the case that all those who are saved through faith by God's grace will participate in good works.

It is in that spirit that James writes that a person is "justified" by works and not by faith alone. In verse 21. Now, the only way that what James said can be misunderstood is that anyone reading it wants to change what he literally said.

James used the concept of "justification," which some see as a contradiction to Paul's use of "justification" in passages such as Romans 4. Here, it is common for a reader to assume a contradiction with Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

It's important to remember two things, however.

#1. James is not claiming works are required for salvation.
His entire argument has been about what kind of faith actually saves. He is on the attack against the attitude that one can be saved by a faith that has no works. He has stated repeatedly that such a faith is dead, useless. He is not saying that faith is not the means through which we receive God's grace; he is saying that a so-called-"faith" which results in no actions is not a genuine faith. A "works-less" faith cannot justify anyone.

#2. It is important to remember that James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.

Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent misunderstandings. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings.

The bottom line is that Faith without anything added to it is what saves the sinner.
That says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.

 

[GodsGrace]

James 2:24 makes the case that those who truly trust in God naturally end up participating in good works. Nowhere does James say that good works must be done to be saved. No where does James even suggest that good works are part of the salvation experience.

As James showed in prior verses, no one can be saved by good works.

What YOU are missing and seemingly unable to understand is that there are NO Works that are to be required for salvation—they are a "symptom" of saving faith.

In verse 22, he used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith. James is urgently making the case that all those who are saved through faith by God's grace will participate in good works.

It is in that spirit that James writes that a person is "justified" by works and not by faith alone. In verse 21. Now, the only way that what James said can be misunderstood is that anyone reading it wants to change what he literally said.

James used the concept of "justification," which some see as a contradiction to Paul's use of "justification" in passages such as Romans 4. Here, it is common for a reader to assume a contradiction with Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

It's important to remember two things, however.

#1. James is not claiming works are required for salvation.
His entire argument has been about what kind of faith actually saves. He is on the attack against the attitude that one can be saved by a faith that has no works. He has stated repeatedly that such a faith is dead, useless. He is not saying that faith is not the means through which we receive God's grace; he is saying that a so-called-"faith" which results in no actions is not a genuine faith. A "works-less" faith cannot justify anyone.

#2. It is important to remember that James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.

The word believe, I'm sure you must know, carries with it the connotation of OBEDIENCE.
If we believe, we will also obey.
James is claiming that works are necessary for salvation.
If we do not obey God,,,we will not be saved.
Paul is often referring to the WORKS OF THE LAW in his writings....
The works of the law are dead and no longer affect us or our salvation.
Good works/deeds, as commanded by Jesus, are necessary for our salvation.

Luke 6:35-37 JESUS SAID NASB
35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
John 5:28-29 JESUS SAID
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent misunderstandings. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings.

It is not necessary for us to prove to human beings that we are saved:

Jesus said: NASB
Matthew 6:6
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:3
3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

The bottom line is that Faith without anything added to it is what saves the sinner.
That says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.

Faith with works added to it is what saves the sinner:

Matthew 25:25-30
25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The illustration from the life of Abraham is clear.

James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law, since the law didn’t come for another 430 years.

You couldn't be more wrong. Skim back a few verses and you'll see the commands in the law that he uses to illustrate the faith that is active. In fact, the theme of the passage is 'be doers of the word':

22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless. 27Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress (Deuteronomy 10:16-18, 14:28-29, Jeremiah 22:16), and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” (Leviticus 19:18)c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15).

10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs (Deuteronomy 15:7-8), what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action (keeping the law),f is dead.

So, as you can see, this is All ABOUT faith keeping the law of Moses (not the parts we don't have to literally keep anymore, of course). You are dead wrong when you say, "James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law." He is in fact talking about good deeds and the works of the law. The faith that is alive upholds the law. The exact same thing Paul, who taught "righteousness apart from works of the law" said.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Romans 3:28,31

See it? 'Apart from works of the law' does not mean you don't do works of the law. It means you are not justified by the law that your faith keeps. You are justified by your faith, not by the works your faith upholds.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am speaking for myself.

God has spoken for you in Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

1 John 1:8-10..........
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Should we try to keep the commandments of God? YES.
Problem is that NO ONE has or can except the Lord Jesus.

The above is not for me,
but ....
do you believe you must be perfect to please God?
Why do those that reject good works, as Jesus commanded us to do,
always refer to our inability to be perfect?

Jesus stated that only God is perfect.
I doubt Jesus expects perfection from us.

But He does expect this:
John 14:15 NASB
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[GodsGrace]

You couldn't be more wrong. Skim back a few verses and you'll see the commands in the law that he uses to illustrate the faith that is active. In fact, the theme of the passage is 'be doers of the word':

22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless. 27Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress (Deuteronomy 10:16-18, 14:28-29, Jeremiah 22:16), and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” (Leviticus 19:18)c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15).

10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs (Deuteronomy 15:7-8), what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action (keeping the law),f is dead.

So, as you can see, this is All ABOUT faith keeping the law of Moses (not the parts we don't have to literally keep anymore, of course). You are dead wrong when you say, "James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law." He is in fact talking about good deeds and the works of the law. The faith that is alive upholds the law. The exact same thing Paul, who taught "righteousness apart from works of the law" said.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Romans 3:28,31

See it? 'Apart from works of the law' does not mean you don't do works of the law. It means you are not justified by the law that your faith keeps. You are justified by your faith, not by the works your faith upholds.

The above is not for me but is full of error.
Why would James speak of THE LAW regarding Abraham??

The Law was not yet established at the time of Abraham, and would not be until Moses.
So your point is moot.

 

[Rodger]

You couldn't be more wrong. Skim back a few verses and you'll see the commands in the law that he uses to illustrate the faith that is active. In fact, the theme of the passage is 'be doers of the word':

22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless. 27Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress (Deuteronomy 10:16-18, 14:28-29, Jeremiah 22:16), and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” (Leviticus 19:18)c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15).

10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs (Deuteronomy 15:7-8), what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action (keeping the law),f is dead.

So, as you can see, this is All ABOUT faith keeping the law of Moses (not the parts we don't have to literally keep anymore, of course). You are dead wrong when you say, "James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law." He is in fact talking about good deeds and the works of the law. The faith that is alive upholds the law. The exact same thing Paul, who taught "righteousness apart from works of the law" said.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Romans 3:28,31

See it? 'Apart from works of the law' does not mean you don't do works of the law. It means you are not justified by the law that your faith keeps. You are justified by your faith, not by the works your faith upholds.

Brother.......there are some people who no mater what the Bible says, are going to stick with what they think!

You are seeing that right here on this forum.

You see, the reality is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control.

Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone. Also, man has an inherent sense of justice. Even the most ardent atheist believes in some type of justice and has a sense of right and wrong, even if he has no moral basis for making such judgments. Our inherent sense of right and wrong demands that if we are to be saved, our “good works” must outweigh our “bad works.” Therefore, it is natural that when man creates a religion it would involve some type of salvation by works.

Proverbs 14:12 tells us that.......
“there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”

Salvation by works seems right to men because of our inherited sin nature, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works.

Even thought the Word of God clearly says in Ephesians 2:8-9.......
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast”---what do we see happen, NO, NO...that can not be the case because Faith Alone is not in the Bible. Then that very same person will then say I accept the Trinity and the Rapture when neither of those words are in the Bible either.

Another reason why salvation by works is the predominantly held viewpoint is that natural or unregenerate man does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness or of God’s holiness.

Man’s heart is “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” in Jeremiah 17:9, and God is infinitely holy in Isaiah 6:3.

What that means then is that The deceit of our hearts is the very thing that colors our perception of the extent of that deceit and is what prevents us from seeing our true state before a God whose holiness we are also unable to fully comprehend. But the truth remains that our sinfulness and God’s holiness combine to make our best efforts as “filthy rags” before a holy God.

There is an old saying I was told by a professor that says......
"We like what we know, even if what we know is wrong".

Keep up the good work you are doing even though it is and will be frustrating.

 

[JLB]

James 2:24 makes the case that those who truly trust in God naturally end up participating in good works. Nowhere does James say that good works must be done to be saved. No where does James even suggest that good works are part of the salvation experience.

The context is not about “good works”.

It’s about obedience, the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26

The “work” (action of obedience) Abraham did was to obey the command of God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

When we hear God speak to us, we receive faith.

We must do what He says in order to be justified.

Rehab responded in obedience by hiding the children of Israel and sending out another way, thus helping them escape.

Noah obeyed and built the Ark.

The woman with the issue of blood obeyed and pressed through the crowds and touched the hem of His garment.


This is the prince of faith, the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is for those who obey Him.

 

[JLB]

You couldn't be more wrong. Skim back a few verses and you'll see the commands in the law that he uses to illustrate the faith that is active. In fact, the theme of the passage is 'be doers of the word':

Yes doers of the word. That’s called obedience.

Abraham obeyed God to sacrifice His son Isaac.

Likewise we obey God the Holy Spirit as we are led to do righteousness; practice righteousness.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

 

[tdidymas]

My dear brother...I agree that we should keep the commandments of God.......the problem is that we can not do it. We can and we should try but we simply can not do it.

I have to take exception to this statement. It begs questions. If you mean to say we cannot be sinlessly perfect in this life, then why not say that?

If your meaning is that we can't love God and love our neighbor as commanded by Jesus and the apostles, then I have to disagree with you on this. Certainly there can always be improvements, especially in relational crises, but that doesn't mean we can't keep the commandments. Jesus and the apostles say repeatedly that loving one another fulfills the law and sums up the commandments.

I wonder if you are merely repeating what you're told is reformed doctrine about this. I don't think it is. I agree with most everything I've read from you so far, except for this statement, as it seems exaggerative. If we are walking by faith, that is, trusting Jesus to defend, deliver, and direct us, then we are keeping His commands.

I don't know if this well help or not, but the problem with the people you are debating is that they are assuming that the term 'faith' everywhere in the Bible has the exact same meaning. But James is using the term in a considerably different way in 2:17-26 than he is in 1:3-6. The definition of the term is determined by the context in which it is used. "Faith without works is dead" has the same meaning as mental acknowledgement that has no consistent response. Thus, he gives the example of someone seeing another in need and doesn't give them the satisfaction of meeting the need. Such a person is a hypocrite, since the love of God is not in them. That 'faith' is merely imaginary, and does not come from the 'heart' as Paul describes in Rom. 10.

So James is arguing for a kind of faith that is consistent with Jesus' teachings (as Paul also did). No doubt Gnosticism had already crept into the churches so that some people had been deceived by it, just as many are today, being antinomian. And just as the RCC along with many Protestants can't accept this distinction in the way the term 'faith' is used, so they assume that "faith alone" automatically means antinomianism. This assumption is the real issue and I think the crux of the controversy.

 

[Rodger]

I have to take exception to this statement. It begs questions. If you mean to say we cannot be sinlessly perfect in this life, then why not say that?

If your meaning is that we can't love God and love our neighbor as commanded by Jesus and the apostles, then I have to disagree with you on this. Certainly there can always be improvements, especially in relational crises, but that doesn't mean we can't keep the commandments. Jesus and the apostles say repeatedly that loving one another fulfills the law and sums up the commandments.

I wonder if you are merely repeating what you're told is reformed doctrine about this. I don't think it is. I agree with most everything I've read from you so far, except for this statement, as it seems exaggerative. If we are walking by faith, that is, trusting Jesus to defend, deliver, and direct us, then we are keeping His commands.

That is exactly what I mean my friend. YOU or me or Bily Graham or the Pope can not live a sinlessly perfect life.

Take the time to read carefully and fully Romans 7:14-24. There you see that the Bible teaches us that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature. No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

Now a lot of people misunderstand Colossians 1:28 and use it to validate sinlessness. Unfornitually, in some translations, it is stated that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”
Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”

In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone.
This is exactly why Paul said...."Of sinners, I am chief"!

We certainly can love others and we can love God but because we have a sin nature that never goes away until death, we sin and are prone to sin. That does not mean we have to allow it to dominate us but we still sin.

I appreciate your comments, but think for a minute....there are 613 Commandments. Do you actually believe that you can keep all of them? I know that I can't and admit it.

You see, if you break ONE you break all of them according to James 2:10........
"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

There is no possible way for anyone to live a life of NO sin. Only one did and that was Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Brother.......there are some people who no mater what the Bible says, are going to stick with what they think!

You are seeing that right here on this forum.

You see, the reality is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control.

Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone. Also, man has an inherent sense of justice. Even the most ardent atheist believes in some type of justice and has a sense of right and wrong, even if he has no moral basis for making such judgments. Our inherent sense of right and wrong demands that if we are to be saved, our “good works” must outweigh our “bad works.” Therefore, it is natural that when man creates a religion it would involve some type of salvation by works.

Proverbs 14:12 tells us that.......
“there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”

Salvation by works seems right to men because of our inherited sin nature, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works.

Even thought the Word of God clearly says in Ephesians 2:8-9.......
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast”---what do we see happen, NO, NO...that can not be the case because Faith Alone is not in the Bible. Then that very same person will then say I accept the Trinity and the Rapture when neither of those words are in the Bible either.

Another reason why salvation by works is the predominantly held viewpoint is that natural or unregenerate man does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness or of God’s holiness.

Man’s heart is “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” in Jeremiah 17:9, and God is infinitely holy in Isaiah 6:3.

What that means then is that The deceit of our hearts is the very thing that colors our perception of the extent of that deceit and is what prevents us from seeing our true state before a God whose holiness we are also unable to fully comprehend. But the truth remains that our sinfulness and God’s holiness combine to make our best efforts as “filthy rags” before a holy God.

There is an old saying I was told by a professor that says......
"We like what we know, even if what we know is wrong".

Keep up the good work you are doing even though it is and will be frustrating.

I believe you've forgotten
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,

Some Christians don't like that part.
Some Christians want Jesus as their Savior,
but not as their Lord.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
What is the will of the Father?
Jesus tells us:
John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.


Jesus left us with 2 Great Commandments.
Matthew 22:37-39
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

These 2 commandments encompass all the others.
If you DO them, as Jesus has commanded...
you will be obeying Jesus and doing His works.

 

[Rodger]

The context is not about “good works”.

It’s about obedience, the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26

The “work” (action of obedience) Abraham did was to obey the command of God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

When we hear God speak to us, we receive faith.

We must do what He says in order to be justified.

Rehab responded in obedience by hiding the children of Israel and sending out another way, thus helping them escape.

Noah obeyed and built the Ark.

The woman with the issue of blood obeyed and pressed through the crowds and touched the hem of His garment.


This is the prince of faith, the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is for those who obey Him.

I actually understand your need to think that there is something we can do to merit our salvation. I understand does not mean that I agree. It would be much better if you read the Scriptures without your bias.

The Bible teaches us from Genesis to the Revelation that Justification is by faith, and that by faith without anything added to it by us. Righteousness is thus reckoned by God to the one who believes.

You are now saying that "Obedience" is the work of action through which we are saved.

May I say to you that the Grace of God and obedience are no more opposed to one another than grace and truth. Remember the Apostle John wrote that Jesus was “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

The Old Testament Scriptures that you are using, lays the groundwork for understanding obedience as a response to God's grace. The covenant relationship between God and Israel is a prime example.

However, you seem to have forgotten that God’s deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt was an act of grace, and in response, they were called to obey His commandments.

In Exodus 19:4-5 , God declares, "You have seen for yourselves what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you will be My treasured possession out of all the nations."

Do you see it??? Here, obedience is not a means to earn God’s favor but a response to the grace already bestowed.

Imagine if you only had the truth but no grace. Wouldn’t that be a form of legalism? Grace without truth would be licentiousness, which is from an old English word meaning, “a license to sin.” Truth without grace would turn us into walking Bible encyclopedias, where we are constantly beating each other over the head with the truth, but grace without truth will make obedience and works, unimportant, so let grace and obedience walk hand in hand in the Spirit-led believer, and let them produce good works for the glory of God, because God is always seeking glory for Himself, and who better to glorify God, than you and I?

 

[Rodger]

I have to take exception to this statement. It begs questions. If you mean to say we cannot be sinlessly perfect in this life, then why not say that?

If your meaning is that we can't love God and love our neighbor as commanded by Jesus and the apostles, then I have to disagree with you on this. Certainly there can always be improvements, especially in relational crises, but that doesn't mean we can't keep the commandments. Jesus and the apostles say repeatedly that loving one another fulfills the law and sums up the commandments.

I wonder if you are merely repeating what you're told is reformed doctrine about this. I don't think it is. I agree with most everything I've read from you so far, except for this statement, as it seems exaggerative. If we are walking by faith, that is, trusting Jesus to defend, deliver, and direct us, then we are keeping His commands.

I don't know if this well help or not, but the problem with the people you are debating is that they are assuming that the term 'faith' everywhere in the Bible has the exact same meaning. But James is using the term in a considerably different way in 2:17-26 than he is in 1:3-6. The definition of the term is determined by the context in which it is used. "Faith without works is dead" has the same meaning as mental acknowledgement that has no consistent response. Thus, he gives the example of someone seeing another in need and doesn't give them the satisfaction of meeting the need. Such a person is a hypocrite, since the love of God is not in them. That 'faith' is merely imaginary, and does not come from the 'heart' as Paul describes in Rom. 10.

So James is arguing for a kind of faith that is consistent with Jesus' teachings (as Paul also did). No doubt Gnosticism had already crept into the churches so that some people had been deceived by it, just as many are today, being antinomian. And just as the RCC along with many Protestants can't accept this distinction in the way the term 'faith' is used, so they assume that "faith alone" automatically means antinomianism. This assumption is the real issue and I think the crux of the controversy.

Excellent point and I have in fact posted that the meaning of the Greek word for Perfect" is also MATURE depending on the context involved.

So then....."No one can live a life od NO sin"!

We can and I hope everyone does, Live a life of "less" sin but sinlessness is impossible both in reality and Bible truth.

 

[JLB]

I actually understand your need to think that there is something we can do to merit our salvation.

I’m only teaching that faith by itself is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Do you understand the principle of faith; the obedience of faith?

 

[tdidymas]

That is exactly what I mean my friend. YOU or me or Bily Graham or the Pope can not live a sinlessly perfect life.

Take the time to read carefully and fully Romans 7:14-24. There you see that the Bible teaches us that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature. No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

Now a lot of people misunderstand Colossians 1:28 and use it to validate sinlessness. Unfornitually, in some translations, it is stated that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”
Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”

In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone.
This is exactly why Paul said...."Of sinners, I am chief"!

We certainly can love others and we can love God but because we have a sin nature that never goes away until death, we sin and are prone to sin. That does not mean we have to allow it to dominate us but we still sin.

I appreciate your comments, but think for a minute....there are 613 Commandments. Do you actually believe that you can keep all of them? I know that I can't and admit it.

You see, if you break ONE you break all of them according to James 2:10........
"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

There is no possible way for anyone to live a life of NO sin. Only one did and that was Jesus.

I think you missed my point. Can you love God? Can you love your neighbor? If you're saying you can't, then I think you err.

Stop exaggerating. Whenever you assume that people mean sinless perfection when talking about keeping the commandments, you are opening yourself up to misunderstanding and misrepresenting what they may be saying. This is a prime example of misrepresentation, that you assume I am advocating sinless perfection when I did no such thing.

It appears to me that you made no attempt at understanding what I said, but rather latched onto one key phrase that you have a bone to pick on.

But my first point was, stop couching your language. If you mean we cannot be sinlessly perfect, then say so, rather than saying we can't keep the commandments! Claiming you can't keep the commandments says that you've given up on loving your neighbor the way Christ commanded us. So can you love your neighbor?

 

[tdidymas]

Excellent point and I have in fact posted that the meaning of the Greek word for Perfect" is also MATURE depending on the context involved.

So then....."No one can live a life od NO sin"!

We can and I hope everyone does, Live a life of "less" sin but sinlessness is impossible both in reality and Bible truth.

Yes, and would you agree that when John says, "the one born of God cannot sin" that he is talking about direction of life, and not about absolute condition?
1 Jn. 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would James speak of THE LAW regarding Abraham??

James is not speaking of the law regarding Abraham. I made no argument for that.

In the passage, James uses examples of obedience to the law to show us the work by which a man is justified (shown to be righteous, not made to be righteous). Faith that is not dead upholds the law. JLB made the argument that James was not talking about faith doing the works of the law in James 2.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus stated that only God is perfect.
I doubt Jesus expects perfection from us.

He does desire perfection from us:

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

But he also knows we're on a journey to perfection:

18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory.... 2 Corinthians 3:18

One day the righteousness that has been credited to us in this age will be a reality for us in the next. That is our hope:

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5

For now we have a declaration of righteousness that is not our own. Credited to us as an act of God's grace through our faith, apart from any consideration of righteous things we have done (that's what 'faith alone' means in that context). We are graciously gifted this declaration of righteousness because we are unable to earn it ourselves. Now we hope and long for the day when we will possess in reality the righteousness that for now has been credited to us:

27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Philippians 3:12

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do those that reject good works, as Jesus commanded us to do,
always refer to our inability to be perfect?

Good works are only rejected as the basis for God declaring us righteous. No one is good enough to be declared righteous that way. That's why you can only be declared righteous by being cleansed of all your unrighteousness through God's forgiveness received by faith, apart from your works. That's what 'faith alone' means, in that context.