Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

Brother.......there are some people who no matter what the Bible says, are going to stick with what they think!

You are seeing that right here on this forum.

You see, the reality is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control.

Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone. Also, man has an inherent sense of justice. Even the most ardent atheist believes in some type of justice and has a sense of right and wrong, even if he has no moral basis for making such judgments. Our inherent sense of right and wrong demands that if we are to be saved, our “good works” must outweigh our “bad works.” Therefore, it is natural that when man creates a religion it would involve some type of salvation by works.

Proverbs 14:12 tells us that.......
“there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”

Salvation by works seems right to men because of our inherited sin nature, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works.

Even thought the Word of God clearly says in Ephesians 2:8-9.......
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast”---what do we see happen, NO, NO...that can not be the case because Faith Alone is not in the Bible. Then that very same person will then say I accept the Trinity and the Rapture when neither of those words are in the Bible either.

Another reason why salvation by works is the predominantly held viewpoint is that natural or unregenerate man does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness or of God’s holiness.

Man’s heart is “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” in Jeremiah 17:9, and God is infinitely holy in Isaiah 6:3.

What that means then is that The deceit of our hearts is the very thing that colors our perception of the extent of that deceit and is what prevents us from seeing our true state before a God whose holiness we are also unable to fully comprehend. But the truth remains that our sinfulness and God’s holiness combine to make our best efforts as “filthy rags” before a holy God.

There is an old saying I was told by a professor that says......
"We like what we know, even if what we know is wrong".

Keep up the good work you are doing even though it is and will be frustrating.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, giving Him all the glory, honor and merit for our salvation. Instead, works-salvationists seek to boast in self and feed on self-promotion, self-righteousness and self-preservation. For such folks, their hands are full of their works, and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[mailmandan]

I’m only teaching that faith by itself is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of producing works that it's dead. (James 2:14-17) So, that is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, and would you agree that when John says, "the one born of God cannot sin" that he is talking about direction of life, and not about absolute condition?
1 Jn. 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (NASB 1995)

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him. (AMP)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes doers of the word. That’s called obedience.

So, then, by James citing various commands of the law to illustrate his point, you must agree that the obedience that James is talking about in regard to being justified (shown to be righteous) by faith and works is the obedience of upholding the law.

Upholding the law shows us to have the faith that upholds the law (Romans 3:31). That's what being justified by works means in the passage. It does not mean you make yourself righteous by upholding the law.

 

[JLB]

What kind of faith is that?

There is only one kind of faith.

It’s either alive (activated to function) or dead (inactive and unable to function)

Faith comes from God to us when we hear Him speak to us.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

Noah received faith when God spoke to him to prepare the ark.

The faith, the divine substance, became the ark by the action of Noah’s obedience, thus providing salvation for Noah and his family and the rest of mankind.

By Noah moving with godly fear, and obeying the voice of God, Noah’s faith became activated to produce the intended divine result of salvation (deliverance from destruction) where Noah operated in the righteousness according to faith.

Obedience of faith.

 

[JLB]

So, then, by James citing various commands of the law to illustrate his point, you must agree that the obedience that James is talking about in regard to being justified (shown to be righteous) by faith and works is the obedience of upholding the law.

Obedience of faith is how we uphold the Royal law, which is to love God and love our neighbor.

The law of faith operates by the same principle (weight of balance) as the abolished law of Moses which is obedience.


By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:16-18


When the Spirit leads us to share our goods with a certain person, we now have faith for that work. If we obey the unction of the Spirit then we are “practicing righteousness” or operating in the principal of the righteousness according to faith, like Noah did.

If we refuse to obey the leading of the Spirit to share our earthly provision with that one to whom the Spirit leads to, then it becomes a dead work, and we are unfruitful in that endeavor.

We can of course repent and learn from our mistake and grow from faith to faith, as God intends.


However, if this becomes a lifestyle and we never heed the leading of the Spirit to do anything for anyone then we are simple an unfruitful branch refusing to heed the Voice of our master.

Like the servant who buried his coin and did nothing to reproduce for the Master, we can certainly expect to hear these words when He returns…

And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:30

 

[Rodger]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, giving Him all the glory, honor and merit for our salvation. Instead, works-salvationists seek to boast in self and feed on self-promotion, self-righteousness and self-preservation. For such folks, their hands are full of their works, and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

I absolutely agree. YOU and I accept it but as you see there are many who can not understand it!

To me, IMHO that kind of thinking is indicative of a real lack of Bible knowledge and understanding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, if this becomes a lifestyle and we never heed the leading of the Spirit to do anything for anyone then we are simple an unfruitful branch refusing to heed the Voice of our master.

Scripture calls that an unbeliever.

They are showing by their lifestyle of unfruitful disobedience to the law that they are in unbelief and so they will be cut out of the vine, convicted and condemned as an imposter by their own fruitlessness. This is in no way shape or form, except for their empty confession of faith, a believer.

 

[Rodger]

Yes, and would you agree that when John says, "the one born of God cannot sin" that he is talking about direction of life, and not about absolute condition?
1 Jn. 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I appreciate your question and I am blessed to have you ask me.

1 John 3:9 is the most popular Scripture of those who choose to believe the false teaching of the Pentecostal denomination that we as humans can live a life of sinlessness after we are saved.

My answer is that all human beings are born with a sin nature.

The Bible teaches that, while we are living in the flesh, we will always struggle with sin and that is validated in Romans 7:14–24; & 1 John 1:8. This applies to unbelievers as well as believers. The difference is that at salvation believers receive the Holy Spirit and become new creations as we see in 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Because of this, we are no longer slaves to sin as we are told in Romans 6:6–7).

The Holy Spirit empowers believers to live for righteousness. While sinless perfection is unattainable in this life, 1we are to try and live a life of "Less Sin". We can do that because Sin does not, or may I say, should not dominate the believer to live in or continue to do KNOWN Sin.

All sin is from the devil, not God. First John 3:4–10 strongly condemns sin and warns believers that neither salvation nor grace is an excuse to sin. John had previously warned believers that anyone who claims to have no sin is lying (in John 1:8.

Therefore, 1 John 3:9 cannot mean that whoever is born of God will be perfectly sinless.

It means that whoever is born of God will no longer continue to sin willfully or habitually. Those who are born again will desire to live for God, not for the flesh. The best translation of 1 John 3:9 is.......
“No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.”

The Amplified Bible also brings out this meaning: ........
“No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin.”

 

[Rodger]

I think you missed my point. Can you love God? Can you love your neighbor? If you're saying you can't, then I think you err.

Stop exaggerating. Whenever you assume that people mean sinless perfection when talking about keeping the commandments, you are opening yourself up to misunderstanding and misrepresenting what they may be saying. This is a prime example of misrepresentation, that you assume I am advocating sinless perfection when I did no such thing.

It appears to me that you made no attempt at understanding what I said, but rather latched onto one key phrase that you have a bone to pick on.

But my first point was, stop couching your language. If you mean we cannot be sinlessly perfect, then say so, rather than saying we can't keep the commandments! Claiming you can't keep the commandments says that you've given up on loving your neighbor the way Christ commanded us. So can you love your neighbor?

Thanks for your input. It seems to me that you are going out of your way to be confrontational and have an argument.

I do not agree with it but you have the freedom to say it.

I am sorry that you do not have the ability to understand that when someone says...........
"we cannot be sinlessly perfect, is actually saying we can't keep the commandments! "

What part of that is so hard to understand my friend. They are one in the same !

Sin is breaking the Law of God. Do you not grasp the elementary thought process of such an event?
The person who claims to live a "sinless life" can not possibly do so because he or no one else can keep all the Commandments of the Law.

So can you love your neighbor?...........Absolutely.
So can you love God..................................Absolutely.

 

[Rodger]

I’m only teaching that faith by itself is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Do you understand the principle of faith; the obedience of faith?

I understand that completely and I do not agree with your teaching. I will believe what teh Bible says and not what you say.

Your inability to correctly understand what James 2:17 says, should not in any way cause you to try and teach something that is not found anywhere else in the Scriptures.

YES. I understand Faith and I understand Obedience which is exactly why I posted for you that they go "hand in hand".

James says clearly that Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

It does NOT mean that faith is dead. That is what YOU want it to say my friend.

James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved.

 

[JLB]

Scripture calls that an unbeliever.

They are showing by their lifestyle of unfruitful disobedience to the law that they are in unbelief and so they will be cut out of the vine, convicted and condemned as an imposter by their own fruitlessness. This is in no way shape or form, except for their empty confession of faith, a believer.

Those who are in Christ must produce fruit, (over time as they mature) otherwise they will be removed from Christ.

In Christ refers to people who are saved.

The sheep who became lost was at one time His sheep and was justified along with the 99.

While separated the lost sheep is referred to as sinner.

When the lost sheep returns, then he will be restored and again be justified like the 99.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


Just like the prodigal son was restored.

Just like Peter who was restored.

Judas was not restored because he did not return.

In Christ = Saved; justified.

Removed from Christ = no longer saved; no longer justified.

 

[JLB]

YES. I understand Faith and I understand Obedience which is exactly why I posted for you that they go "hand in hand".

Then you know that faith alone, it it does not have the action (work) of obedience is dead.

Just exactly what James 2:17 so plainly states.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

As well as verse 26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26

 

[Rodger]

Then you know that faith alone, it it does not have the action (work) of obedience is dead.

Just exactly what James 2:17 so plainly states.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

As well as verse 26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26

Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart.

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, and if that is what you are trying to do then I can not agree.

That idea/teaching is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God and maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but it does seem to me that you are trying to say that.

I have stated and do so again, say that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works.

 

[Rodger]

Those who are in Christ must produce fruit, (over time as they mature) otherwise they will be removed from Christ.

In Christ refers to people who are saved.

The sheep who became lost was at one time His sheep and was justified along with the 99.

While separated the lost sheep is referred to as sinner.

When the lost sheep returns, then he will be restored and again be justified like the 99.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


Just like the prodigal son was restored.

Just like Peter who was restored.

Judas was not restored because he did not return.

In Christ = Saved; justified.

Removed from Christ = no longer saved; no longer justified.

That is a rather simplistic view brother.

What if your elderly parent in a nursing home bed came to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, but because they are are bed ridden cannot do much of anything. Is their salvation experience to be judged by their works ability?

What if it was you in a bed. You accepted Christ but now your health will not allow you to do anything but breath. Will you lose your salvation because you can not speak, or walk or get out of bed.

What about the men who accepted Christ the hour before combat. They had NO time to do any works. Is their confession of faith worthless because they had NO works?

 

[JLB]

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, and if that is what you are trying to do then I can not agree.

I’m not discussing good works, the works of the law, work that earns a wage, or works of righteousness.

I’m discussing the principle of faith; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

When God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, Abraham then had faith from God.

Faith comes by hearing…

What “work” did Abraham do that caused him to be justified?

 

[JLB]

That is a rather simplistic view brother.

What if your elderly parent in a nursing home bed came to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, but because they are are bed ridden cannot do much of anything. Is their salvation experience to be judged by their works ability?

The thief on the cross simply confessed Jesus as Lord and believed He would be raised from the dead.

He was saved, because his faith was activated and made alive by his obedience to confess Jesus as Lord.


How long does it take for a plant to produce fruit?

 

[Rodger]

I’m not discussing good works, the works of the law, work that earns a wage, or works of righteousness.

I’m discussing the principle of faith; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

When God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, Abraham then had faith from God.

Faith comes by hearing…

What “work” did Abraham do that caused him to be justified?

I'am not discussing works.......Really?

You said=
"Then you know that faith alone, it it does not have the action (work) of obedience is dead.
Just exactly what James 2:17 so plainly states."

It feels like we are saying the same thing. I am agreeing with you so at this point I dont know what to say.

"Faith comes by hearing"..........Absolutely!
"What works did Abraham do to be justified"? None!

It was Abrahams "Faith" that caused him to be saved. He believed that God would

In Genesis 15:6 , it is written,
"Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

This verse underscores the depth of Abraham's faith, which is later referenced by the Apostle Paul in Romans 4:3 to illustrate justification by faith.

Now then, one of the most profound tests of Abraham's faith was his obedience to the command to sacrifice his son Isaac. In Genesis 22:1-2 , God tests Abraham:.......
"Some time later God tested Abraham and said to him, 'Abraham!' 'Here I am,' he replied. 'Take your son,' God said, 'your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. Offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will show you.'"

Abrahams faith was that he believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead because as far as he
was concerned, Isaac was dead!

As I have said, James continues to make the case that saving faith in God results in the believer doing good works. Works do not save, but they are the natural result of a faith which does.

Heb. 11:8-10 commends Abraham's faith and obedience:......
"By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the promised land as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

As I have posted here already, faith and obedience are inseparable in the life of a believer. Faith provides the foundation for obedience, while obedience is the fruit of genuine faith. Together, they form the basis of a vibrant and dynamic relationship with God, characterized by trust, love, and submission to His will.

 

[Rodger]

The thief on the cross simply confessed Jesus as Lord and believed He would be raised from the dead.

He was saved, because his faith was activated and made alive by his obedience to confess Jesus as Lord.


How long does it take for a plant to produce fruit?

Exactly what I have said brother.

The thief heard, had faith to believe and made the choice for Christ.

How long does it take to plant a seed?

Depends on where you are. Here in Florida it takes about an hour.
1. Go to the store and buy seed.
2. Find shovel.
3. Dig a hole.
4. Cover it.
5. Water it.

 

[JLB]

Exactly what I have said brother.

The thief heard, had faith to believe and made the choice for Christ.

How long does it take to plant a seed?

Depends on where you are. Here in Florida it takes about an hour.
1. Go to the store and buy seed.
2. Find shovel.
3. Dig a hole.
4. Cover it.
5. Water it.

And how long for the plant to grow and produce fruit?

We know the thief of the cross was saved.