Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

So if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they are being saved by their works?

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

What will be then end of those who don’t obey the Gospel?

Paul makes it clear -

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

I reject your foolish nonsense and choose to obey what the Holy Spirit teaches us through the scriptures.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed  our report?”

The gospel is the "good news" of the death burial, and resurrection of Christ, and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes... (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death burial, and resurrection of christ, as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

It pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Do you understand what "works" refers to?

There is the works of the law of Moses.
There is works that earn a wage.
There is good works.

Then there is a specific "work" or action that is required of faith, to activate it, or make it alive, so that it produces the intended divine result.


I hope to have a good discussion.


I agree, "faith alone" is not biblical, and once a person understands that faith must have a certain specific work, or action, then they inherently stop using the term "faith alone".




JLB

@JBL, what "work or action" are you talking about that "activates" faith? According to Paul, faith is God's gift given to us freely, not something we gain by some action (Ephesians 2:8 and 9). Paul's reason is that we are dead in our sins first (verses 1-3). Then, God rescues us by making us alive to him (verses 4-9). Finally, he gives us actions to do for him (verse 10) AFTER he saves us. Are you boasting about your faith or the resulting good works (verse 9)?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Rodger]

So if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they are being saved by their works?


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


What will be then end of those who don’t obey the Gospel?


Paul makes it clear -

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


I reject your foolish nonsense and choose to obey what the Holy Spirit teaches us through the scriptures.

"Mailman" said...............

Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works.

You then said..........
"So if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they are being saved by their works?"

Mailman did not say anyone is saved by their works because they accepted the gospel. YOU said that!!

 

[JLB]

Mailman did not say anyone is saved by their works because they accepted the gospel. YOU said that!!

Exactly. I said that.

Now I ask you.

… if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, are they being saved by their works?

 

[JLB]

@JBL, what "work or action" are you talking about that "activates" faith? According to Paul, faith is God's gift given to us freely, not something we gain by some action (Ephesians 2:8 and 9). Paul's reason is that we are dead in our sins first (verses 1-3). Then, God rescues us by making us alive to him (verses 4-9). Finally, he gives us actions to do for him (verse 10) AFTER he saves us. Are you boasting about your faith or the resulting good works (verse 9)?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The obedience of faith is a principle; a biblical principle.

We must obey the gospel in order to be saved.

Do you understand how we are to obey the Gospel?

 

[GodsGrace]

"Mailman" said...............

You then said..........
"So if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they are being saved by their works?"

Mailman did not say anyone is saved by their works because they accepted the gospel. YOU said that!!

No Rodger....
mailmandan stated the following in post 1196:
"Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works. "

Mailmandan believes that if we do the good works/deeds which Jesus commanded us to do,,,,
AFTER salvation....AFTER justification....we are believing in salvation by works.

Simply put....he does not believe that we are commanded to do good works.
There are some that believe this, but it is NOT what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works to further the Kingdom of God on earth.
We were created for good works....
Ephesians 2:10

NOT the works of The Law. We are not under the Law.
Good works....loving our neighbor, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, etc.
What JESUS told us to do.

Here is the difference between us:
I believe we MUST OBEY God's commandments....
God expects us to obey His commandments.

Some feel that they do the works from gratitude...
Some feel that good works are not even necessary.

I believe we should be very clear about what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is the definition from a Calvinist -

Total depravity is a phrase that we commonly use to encapsulate the Bible’s doctrine of sin because it fits with other phrases to make a nice acrostic that summarizes the Reformed teaching on salvation. We are talking, of course, about TULIP, which stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

While this acrostic helpfully encapsulates certain truths, many theologians have expressed reservations regarding TULIP because the phrases can be misunderstood. For instance, total depravity might suggest that people are as bad as they can possibly be, that they are totally destitute of any goodness whatsoever or cannot do anything that in any sense can be called good. Certainly, it is true that apart from grace we cannot do good in the sense of what is fully pleasing to God. Paul makes that quite clear in Romans 1:18–3:20. However, in the same passage, Paul also tells us that people also sometimes do what the law of God requires in an external sense. That is, sinners are capable of an outward conformity to God’s statutes. They can treat people kindly, love their children, be good neighbors, and so on. But apart from divine grace, they do not do these things out of a heartfelt desire to love God with their entire being. The good they do outwardly is not matched by what is truly good inwardly.

Since fallen people are still capable of doing good in an outward sense, we are not as bad as we could possibly be. The worst criminal in history could have been worse. Scripture tells us this in many ways. For example, in today’s passage, Jesus says that even we who are evil still know how to give good gifts to our children and that it is right for us to do so (Luke 11:11–13). As sinful as we are, we could still be destitute of all affection for other people. We could still live under no restraints of conscience whatsoever.

Total depravity is not utter depravity, which would mean that we always sin to the greatest extent possible in whatever we do. We are not as wicked as we could be, for God’s law is on our consciences and it holds back even the worst of us from descending into the vilest actions in every circumstance (Rom. 2:12–16). Nevertheless, total depravity means we are as bad off as we could be, for it means that we are at enmity with God. Because sin taints everything we do and are, we have fallen short of the glory of God and cannot merit eternal life (3:23). We are cut off from the Lord and cannot save ourselves.

The above Calvinist believer has not quite yet understood the theology he follows.
The above does NOT explain what total depravity means in Reformed/Calvinist theology.

However, I don't believe 2 non-calvinists should be debating this.

While this acrostic helpfully encapsulates certain truths, many theologians have expressed reservations regarding TULIP because the phrases can be misunderstood.

Key reasons for misunderstanding:

• For instance, total depravity might suggest that people are as bad as they can possibly be, that they are totally destitute of any goodness whatsoever

• Paul also tells us that people also sometimes do what the law of God requires in an external sense. That is, sinners are capable of an outward conformity to God’s statutes. They can treat people kindly, love their children, be good neighbors, and so on.

• Nevertheless, total depravity means we are as bad off as we could be

• Total depravity is not utter depravity.

Utterly and Totally are synonymous and mean the same thing.

The above is NOT the definition of total depravity in reformed circles.

Just a bunch of confusing word salad, with no real substance.


At the end of the day, Reformed Theology, Calvinism or TULIP is just a doctrine of man, with made made words, and man made definitions, meant to be confusing so the people who are truly hungry to know the truth must refer to a so called “teacher” of Calvinism to explain what all these confusing man made terms mean.

SO THAT, the people will become totally dependent on the “teachers” of Calvinism rather than read the Bible for themselves and ask for the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them into the truth.

This is exactly what the Scribes and Pharisee’s were doing when Jesus came on the scene.


He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition (teaching).
Mark 7:9


making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (teaching) which you have handed down. And many such things you do. Mark 7:13

I agree with the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

@JBL, what "work or action" are you talking about that "activates" faith? According to Paul, faith is God's gift given to us freely, not something we gain by some action (Ephesians 2:8 and 9). Paul's reason is that we are dead in our sins first (verses 1-3). Then, God rescues us by making us alive to him (verses 4-9). Finally, he gives us actions to do for him (verse 10) AFTER he saves us. Are you boasting about your faith or the resulting good works (verse 9)?

Here are the works of action BL.....

Who will inherit the Kingdom of God/Heaven?

Matthew 25:34
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


Jesus commanded:
Matthew 25:35-36
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'


Those who refuse to do good works, as Jesus commanded, will be among those that:

Matthew 25:41-43
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yes Sir.
We are saved by the grace of God,,,,through Faith.
Our faith saves us.
THEN we are required to obey God.

Why do some believe we should NOT obey God?
Why do some believe we are not required to do good works when that's what Jesus taught?

 

[GodsGrace]

Depravity =
as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”


We only seek God after a He seeks us out.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Great verse onlysaved.
Jesus knocks. God gives enough grace for us to be aware of Him. We've spoken of this.

WHO opens the door?
Does the individual person open the door to let Jesus in?
Or does Jesus have to open the door because man cannot?

We seek God. AFTER God seeks us.

"Utterly worthless"
This is why we have such a desperate need for a savior and to have Him active in our lives daily. The second our eyes come off of Jesus we begin to stray. "The inclination of our hearts is all evil all the time"

The doctrine of total depravity is very well established in both the old and new Testaments.

After spending 3 years with Jesus in intense discipleship Peter turned away from Jesus at the very first sign of his own peril in being associated with Jesus, an accusation from a little girl made him turn tail and run.
After seeing all the miracles for 3 years of intimate ministry together.
This is the saddest part of the new Testament so even though it's not relevant to our discussion I have to quote what Jesus said to Mary M.. Go tell the disciples. AND Peter!

"And Peter" those have to be the most hope filled words in the NT.

Yes, without Jesus active in our lives we are "altogether worthless" aka utterly depraved "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


when you do something good. It's not you doing it but God doing it through you.

Again, utterly worthless,

I guess you're going to have to give a definition of totally/uttterly depraved...
or whatever you want to call it.

 

[mailmandan]

No Rodger....
mailmandan stated the following in post 1196:
"Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works. "

Mailmandan believes that if we do the good works/deeds which Jesus commanded us to do,,,,
AFTER salvation....AFTER justification....we are believing in salvation by works.

If we are trusting in doing those works to save us then we are believing in salvation by works.

Simply put....he does not believe that we are commanded to do good works.

False. I believe we are commanded to do good works. (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8) I'm just not trusting in doing those good works for salvation. I'm trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6;; Ephesians 2:8,9)

There are some that believe this, but it is NOT what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works to further the Kingdom of God on earth.
We were created for good works....
Ephesians 2:10

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Nothing there about salvation by good works. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works.

NOT the works of The Law. We are not under the Law.
Good works....loving our neighbor, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, etc.
What JESUS told us to do.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the Law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Here is the difference between us:
I believe we MUST OBEY God's commandments....
God expects us to obey His commandments.

Must or else, salvation by works.

Some feel that they do the works from gratitude...
Some feel that good works are not even necessary.

Gratitude and love is the proper motivation for doing good works.

I believe we should be very clear about what Jesus taught.

Yes, we should because our salvation depends on it. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

 

[GodsGrace]

If we are trusting in doing those works to save us then we are believing in salvation by works.

Well, then, I guess obeying Jesus is salvation by works.

False. I believe we are commanded to do good works. (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8) I'm just not trusting in doing those good works for salvation. I'm trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6;; Ephesians 2:8,9)

But this is not what Jesus taught.
I can't remember Romans 4:5-6 or Eph 2:8-9
You should POST the verses you wish to discuss.

However,,you leave out Eph 2:10 which states WE ARE MADE FOR GOOD WORKS.
Odd.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Nothing there about salvation by good works. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works.

Right.
We are made for GOOD WORKS.
God EXPECTS us to do good works.
end.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the Law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Unfortunately for you...
PAUL separated THE LAW from good works.
Do you not know this?
If you need scripture PLEASE let me know...however, it is 11 pm here.
Perhaps tomorrow.
Here's an example:
Romans 3:27-28 WORKS OF THE LAW NASB
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Colossians 3:12-14 GOOD WORKS....WORKS OF FAITH....OBEDIENCE TO GOD
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever * has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Colossians 3:23-24
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Galatians 6:9-10
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Must or else, salvation by works.

Gratitude and love is the proper motivation for doing good works.

Yes, we should because our salvation depends on it. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

Yes. It's MUST or else.

Jesus did not mention gratitude or love.

This is what Jesus mentioned:
John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit...God takes away.

 

[onlysaved]

Great verse onlysaved.
Jesus knocks. God gives enough grace for us to be aware of Him. We've spoken of this.

WHO opens the door?
Does the individual person open the door to let Jesus in?
Or does Jesus have to open the door because man cannot?


I guess you're going to have to give a definition of totally/uttterly depraved...
or whatever you want to call it.

God already has, I quoted Him.. as did Paul." We do not seek God", "we've all gone astray". We are "utterly useless".

Which makes God's love for us all the more incomprehensible.

I wouldn't love me if I was God.
I know me.

"He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it"

Everything good "I" have done hasn't been me at all. It's all God and all ways will be.

Here is another great quote that clearly displays what is to us humans a bit of a mystery.

"If you being evil know how to give good gifts"
We are evil but we know how to do good.

Maybe you guys are different but i know that there is no good in my human nature, that makes me depraved.

 

[GodsGrace]

God already has, I quoted Him.. as did Paul." We do not seek God", "we've all gone astray". We are "utterly useless".

Which makes God's love for us all the more incomprehensible.

I wouldn't love me if I was God.
I know me.

"He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it"

Everything good "I" have done hasn't been me at all. It's all God and all ways will be.

Here is another great quote that clearly displays what is to us humans a bit of a mystery.

"If you being evil know how to give good gifts"
We are evil but we know how to do good.

Maybe you guys are different but i know that there is no good in my human nature, that makes me depraved.

OK oncesaved...
if you want to believe you're a depraved saved person...I'm not going to try to convince you any further.

However, that was not my question.

Here is the question again:
Jesus knocks.
WHO OPENS THE DOOR?

And if we cannot seek God (which you believe due to one verse referring to Psalm 14:1-5, speaking of atheists that David calls FOOLS)....

then please resolve the following verses that state that man IS ABLE to seek God:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

​

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:2​

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Matthew 7:7​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Chronicles 28:9​

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Amos 5:4​

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek me and live;

Acts 17:27​

That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

​

1 Chronicles 22:19​

Now set your mind and heart to seek the Lord your God. Arise and build the sanctuary of the Lord God, so that the ark of the covenant of the Lord and the holy vessels of God may be brought into a house built for the name of the Lord.”

Luke 12:31​

Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

​

​

Matthew 13:44-46​

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Acts 17:26-27​

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 5:6​

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

 

[JLB]

what "work or action" are you talking about that "activates" faith?

Confessing with your mouth Jesus as Lord.

That’s called the confession of faith. It’s how we are
saved “by faith”.

 

[JLB]

The above is NOT the definition of total depravity in reformed circles.

That was the definition given by Ligonier Ministries

Utter Depravity | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

learn.ligonier.org

 

[GodsGrace]

That was the definition given by Ligonier Ministries

Utter Depravity | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

learn.ligonier.org

OK.
Then what's the difference between HOW Ligonier explains it and how every other Christian denomination understands it?

It's true that we're all born with sin.
Depraved just means having no moral value.

Total Depravity is the cornerstone of Calvinism.
It teaches that man is so depraved...so morally corrupt (as we all believe) that he is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
THAT is the key to understanding depravity as the reformed/calvinist theology teaches it.

The other basic foundation of Calvinism is the absence of free will.
How do the two combine?
Man is depraved and cannot seek God.
He is unable to.
It thus becomes necessary for GOD to choose who will be saved and who will not...since man cannot seek after God or make any decision for Him.

Since God must decide each individual's ultimate destiny....it must surely mean that man has no free will.

Depravity and the absence of free will make every other Calvinist doctrine necessary.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY: Man is depraved and unable to seek God.

If the second part is not present...the first part means nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in Reformed theology, if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, elect, regenerate and call individuals to salvation since fallen humanity does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity#cite_note-19"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a>

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It is important to understand the scope of the "total depravity" of humanity in order to understand the Calvinist–Arminian debate. As noted, both views embrace total depravity; it is a question of the action which they believe God must take to reach humanity in its fallen and depraved state. May God grant to humanity the grace to respond to His offer of salvation, so that all may believe (as Arminius taught)? Or must God's grace be irresistible in order to reach humanity (as Calvin taught), so that it is impossible for anyone to be saved unless God first extends to them His irresistible grace? Stated in this manner, there is no substantial difference in total depravity as embraced by Calvinists and Arminians; both agree that humanity is in a state of depravity which prevents them from responding to God.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

Calvinism teaches that since man is depraved and lacking free will....
it is up to God to save those that He will.
This is done through Irresistible Grace....if God decides to save someone,,,that person cannot resist God's grace.

Every single letter of TULIP depends on the rest.

 

[JLB]

OK.
Then what's the difference between HOW Ligonier explains it and how every other Christian denomination understands it?

I think when it comes down to it.

Calvinist’s can’t actually explain what they believe.

At the end of the day, most of what is taught under the umbrella of Calvinism doesn’t even resemble what John Calvin taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think when it comes down to it.

Calvinist’s can’t actually explain what they believe.

At the end of the day, most of what is taught under the umbrella of Calvinism doesn’t even resemble what John Calvin taught.

Ligonier Ministries was started by my favorite Calvinist theologian...
RC Sproul.

He is the "softest" of the most famous Calvinists.
Some Calvinist teachers make the doctrines of Calvinism sound very pleasant and soft....
I dislike attributing this to deceit...maybe it's just the way they like to explain topics.

I can assure you that RC knew what Total Depravity means and it involves the inability to seek God.

Also would like to say that it's not easy to discuss this with Calvinists.
This is because each one may believe something a little differently and they end up telling me I don't understand Calvinism.

Agreed that one must know what John Calvin taught...or the topic goes nowhere.

 

[mailmandan]

Well, then, I guess obeying Jesus is salvation by works.

Authentic obedience produced out of faith is not salvation by works.

But this is not what Jesus taught.
I can't remember Romans 4:5-6 or Eph 2:8-9
You should POST the verses you wish to discuss.

Jesus did not teach works righteousness and neither did Paul in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9.

However,,you leave out Eph 2:10 which states WE ARE MADE FOR GOOD WORKS.
Odd.

Actually, I did not leave out Ephesians 2:10. Did you read my entire post?

Right.
We are made for GOOD WORKS.
God EXPECTS us to do good works.
end.

Yes, we are saved FOR good works and of course God expects us to do good works.

Unfortunately for you...
PAUL separated THE LAW from good works.
Do you not know this?
If you need scripture PLEASE let me know...however, it is 11 pm here.
Perhaps tomorrow.

Paul did not merely say not saved by specific works under the law only. Paul said not saved by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians) not justified by works of the Law (Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16) not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) so we are not saved by works in general.

Here's an example:
Romans 3:27-28 WORKS OF THE LAW NASB
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Colossians 3:12-14 GOOD WORKS....WORKS OF FAITH....OBEDIENCE TO GOD

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Now which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever * has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

So, would you detach these works of love from Matthew 22:37-40? The have nothing to do with loving God and our neighbor as ourselves?

Colossians 3:23-24
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

So, would you detach work heartily as for the Lord from Matthew 22:37-40?

Galatians 6:9-10
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

So, would you detach doing good from Matthew 22:37-40?

Yes. It's MUST or else.

I did not read must or else in those verses on works. Jesus is not a tyrant.

Jesus did not mention gratitude or love.

In John 13:34-35, Jesus emphasizes that love for one another is a characteristic of being a disciple. We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) In Matthew 5:16, we read - In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. This is not accomplished apart from love. Hebrews 10:24 - And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works. In 1 Corinthians 13 we read that if we have not love we are nothing and we are to abide in faith, hope and love but the greatest of these is love, and love is a central theme throughout scripture.

In Galatians 5:6, we read that faith works/is expressed through love. Faith is demonstrated through acts of love. In Galatians 5:14, we read - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” How can we love our neighbor as ourselves if we are not motivated by love?

In regard to gratitude or thanksgiving, in 2 Corinthians 4:15, we read - For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 2 Corinthians 9:12 - For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God. Ephesians 5:20 exhorts us to give thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 4:2 exhorts us to continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving. So, you are not motivated one bit by love and gratitude/thanksgiving to serve the Lord?

This is what Jesus mentioned:
John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit...God takes away.

A spiritual and vital connection with the vine is must or else which is saved or else. Only with that spiritual and vital connection can we abide in the vine and bear fruit. Those who fail to abide and bear fruit demonstrate they have a cosmic connection with the vine, like Judas Iscariot. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11; 17:12)