Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[Corinth77777]

You've gone to great lengths to denigrate water baptism's necessity.
The Ethiopian eunuch and Philip went into water for baptism.

By sharing what you asked? You asked where did I get the definition. I said the Net. Then I went a step to share where in Ancient times what the Bible.Net says it means.

Sounds like you don't want to reply, so you play the accuser. (Judging again)
I could say the same for you, but it would be true. THAT YOU CONTINUE TO GO GREAT LENGTHS TO PUT GOD IN YOUR BOX AND LIMIT HIM, AND NOT SEE THAT He HAS AND CAN MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE AT.


 

I will keep obeying what Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16.

That's good but if you just see water there you are mistaken.

I get the impression that you were not baptized, and are now trying to justify it.

Of course you would. When people think they have a handle and the cure and not God they judge.

I received a certificate of Baptism and my father Baptized me at a Baptist church at 17.

Nope.

 

[Corinth77777]

Thanks.

He does only work in one way, and Peter spoke that way in Acts 2:38.

Well give a scripture where it says " He only works in one way"that is the only way and you would have made a point....

Lets see what act 2:38 says
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

First, Peter told them who asked,
Second, It never says God works one way.
So why did you present a passage that does not
Prove that?

Clean enough to enter under their roof.

Forgivingness, and the destruction of the old man and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4,6)

They weren't regenerated until they were raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
That happens at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

I can not respond to the speculatory.

 

[Corinth77777]

.

Elaborate on the "symbol" of baptism, that is not baptism.

First it's a Symbol, And God can used the water to wash away sins.

Nope.
The uncircumcised which did by nature what the Jews were tying to do by Law, after hearing of the benefits of baptism, would have jumped at the chance to have their past sins remitted.

Not in and age where Water Baptism has been distorted. Therefore, as circumcision counted to the uncircumcised who were without the law. I believe water baptism counted to those who do what is implied by it.

And to be reborn to become Spiritual men and not men of the "flesh".

Back to 1 Peter 3:21...If you read it without the part in parenthesis, you get this...""The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
How ?
By our "immersion" into His death, burial, and resurrection.
If we are not "immersed" into them, we don't partake in them.

This is good because by your own reference it shows you it is a "figure"- symbol....

There is however many translations and so many interpretation on this.

Yet again if one does what the Figure/symbol requires wouldn't water baptism be counted unto them.



The problem is not that I am trying to down play water baptism. It has been distorted for decades upon decades.

But when one group of people think they have a handle on God's word they Damn everyone else. People kill over Formulas.

But God can meet people where they are at and He does rather you believe it or not.

Here in this Chapter that is proven:

Romans 14:4: “Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand”.

IM STILL MEDITATING ON 1 PETER 3
BECAUSE IF BAPTISM HAS TO DO WITH BAPTIZO.. THEN ONE IS REFERRING TO SPIRITUAL...maybe->immersed into THE PRESENCE OF God.

For the context seems to be how they are continually saved we will see...

 

[Corinth77777]

Thw different translations

NETBible: 1 Peter 3:21

 

[Corinth77777]

Thw different translations

NETBible: 1 Peter 3:21

I was thinking on this subject
This scripture was brought to mind. So I googled and came to a site. Dont quote me because its from top of my head: it was that, the jews would be saved by faith and Gentiles through faith.

So if water Baptism was used as a transitional state under the new Covenant then how each entered it could be different. I am not sure, haven't looked into it, and is just a thought.

But look at what the second man answered.

NETBible: 1 Peter 3:21

I have no proof but the thought it self will be rejected or accepted upon what took place with The gentiles and Jews.

NETBible: 1 Peter 3:21

 

[Corinth77777]

Gentiles save through faith, Jews saved by faith ?

What does it mean that Israel will be saved "by faith", and everyone else "through faith"?

Romans 3:30 KJV Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Could this allude to the tribulation, where Israel will once again be under a '

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Read what the second guys ( Mark Vestal) says
I was thinking about this subject and that scripture came to me, now its to look into it to see if it can be proven

Study tool

NETBible: Romans 3:30

classic.net.bible.org

"Ek" and "Dia" are not the same

 

[donadams]

By sharing what you asked? You asked where did I get the definition. I said the Net. Then I went a step to share where in Ancient times what the Bible.Net says it means.

Sounds like you don't want to reply, so you play the accuser. (Judging again)
I could say the same for you, but it would be true. THAT YOU CONTINUE TO GO GREAT LENGTHS TO PUT GOD IN YOUR BOX AND LIMIT HIM, AND NOT SEE THAT He HAS AND CAN MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE AT.


 


That's good but if you just see water there you are mistaken.



Of course you would. When people think they have a handle and the cure and not God they judge.

I received a certificate of Baptism and my father Baptized me at a Baptist church at 17.

Do you see water in Jn 3:5?

Good job hopeful

 

[Hopeful 2]

By sharing what you asked? You asked where did I get the definition. I said the Net. Then I went a step to share where in Ancient times what the Bible.Net says it means.

I stand by my reply to your 'definition'.

Sounds like you don't want to reply, so you play the accuser. (Judging again)

I did reply.

I could say the same for you, but it would be true. THAT YOU CONTINUE TO GO GREAT LENGTHS TO PUT GOD IN YOUR BOX AND LIMIT HIM, AND NOT SEE THAT He HAS AND CAN MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE AT.

As Jesus commanded baptism in His own name, I will defer to Him.(Matt 28:19)

That's good but if you just see water there you are mistaken.

If it isn't water that the Lord speaks of, then you are saying that men can give the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I can't agree.
Men water baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and that is what Jesus is commanding.

Of course you would. When people think they have a handle and the cure and not God they judge.
I received a certificate of Baptism and my father Baptized me at a Baptist church at 17.

Was that just a waste of time ?
If you didn't believe it was a correct baptism, why did you allow it to occur ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well give a scripture where it says " He only works in one way"that is the only way and you would have made a point....
Lets see what act 2:38 says
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
First, Peter told them who asked,
Second, It never says God works one way.
So why did you present a passage that does not
Prove that?

Do you think Peter was telling lies ?
I don't.
I think he was telling those people exactly what the Holy Ghost within him said to tell them.
Show any scripture that says men should be baptized in another way by other men, and I will change my belief.

I can not respond to the speculatory.

Acts 10:28 proves my first point.
Rom 6:3-7 proves the other points
No speculation was necessary on my part.

 

[Hopeful 2]

.First it's a Symbol, And God can used the water to wash away sins.

According to that, baptism is both a symbol and can wash away sins.
What is baptism using water for the remission of sins a symbol of ?

Not in and age where Water Baptism has been distorted.

Those who want to please God will not be deceived by false distortions.
Water baptism does exactly what it was designed to do, wash away sins and destroy the old man...plus more.

Therefore, as circumcision counted to the uncircumcised who were without the law. I believe water baptism counted to those who do what is implied by it.

What is "implied" by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is the application of the blood of Christ for the remission of past sins.
What is "implied" by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is the destruction of the old man and being resurrected with Christ from His grave as new creatures.
You allude to men who are washed of past sins by the blood of Christ without the actual washing, and kill and bury themselves, and are raised by themselves, to walk in newness of life.
How is anyone who is unaware of a Jesus going to do that naturally ?

This is good because by your own reference it shows you it is a "figure"- symbol....

"LIKE figure": so if baptism is only a figure, so too must Noah's arc only be a figure.
Is Noah's arc also just a mystical story, as you would have us believe water baptism is ?

There is however many translations and so many interpretation on this.

Who cares how many translations there are.
False prophets don't take days off !
The Holy Spirit has gifted the authors of scripture with His translation.
Man's after the fact revisions are damnable.

Yet again if one does what the Figure/symbol requires wouldn't water baptism be counted unto them.

How dose one remit their own sins ?
How doe one kill himself and get raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ?

The problem is not that I am trying to down play water baptism. It has been distorted for decades upon decades.

So go back to what is written in the KJV of the bible !
Cut off the distortions !

But when one group of people think they have a handle on God's word they Damn everyone else. People kill over Formulas.
But God can meet people where they are at and He does rather you believe it or not.

Faith cometh by hearing. (Rom 10:17)
If a man wants to please God, God's word will be presented to him.

Here in this Chapter that is proven:
Romans 14:4: “Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand”.

As a man who is not baptized into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection cannot walk without sin, he will surely not stand.

IM STILL MEDITATING ON 1 PETER 3
BECAUSE IF BAPTISM HAS TO DO WITH BAPTIZO.. THEN ONE IS REFERRING TO SPIRITUAL...maybe->immersed into THE PRESENCE OF God.

Why not keep it simple and use water ?
It was OK for the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip.

For the context seems to be how they are continually saved we will see...

"Continually saved"?
One is either converted or they are not converted.

 

[Dave...]

Are we born again by the spirit alone?

Thks

Hi Don

At first, because you didn't use a capitol "s", by "spirit" did you mean our spirit? If that's what you meant, then yes, we are spiritually resurrected when we are born again, the physical resurrection come later.

But by you using the word "by", I think that you meant the Holy Spirit.

If you did mean the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the means by which we are joined to Jesus, thus being made one with Him. At that point, receiving the NT indwelling, or, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, all the benefits apply since we are complete in Him and lacking nothing. Even being filled with the Spirit is not receiving more of Him, He lives in us. It's activating, by obedience to God , what we already have.

I'm still not sure what you meant. Did I get it wrong?

For the discussion in general...

It's important to keep in mind that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are all recording things that happened in the OT. It's still the OT dispensation all the way up until Jesus dies on the cross. The writer of Hebrews tell us that a Testament is not activated until the Testator dies, and since Jesus rose from the dead, His Testament, or Covenant is permanent. So Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are technically OT up until each records the death of Christ on the cross.

So what the Gospels are saying is still from an OT perspective, still looking forward to the promise of the Father, which is still at that point OT prophecy. The new testament, begins at the cross.

John 16 13:14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Pentecost is the birth of the Church. Those who where OT saints still living, that heard and trusted in the NT Gospel, were due the "Promise of the Father", The Holy Spirit, the NT indwelling (seal), which could not be given until conditions were met.

So unless you are an OT saint, who trusted in the NT gospel before Christ died on the cross and were due the "promise of the Father". But had to wait until after the cross to receive it, then you don't need to wait. After the transition, we receive the Promise of the Father the moment we first believe. That's the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of subsequence that Charismatic and Pentecostals churches teach is unbiblical.

NT benefits that we could not receive until after the cross, for obvious reasons, because none of it happened yet. This is why OT saints, dead and alive, needed to wait.

1) Atonement for sin. His perfect obedience was not finalized "it is finished" until His death on the cross. The Lamb without blemish was the only acceptable sacrifice. After His death on the cross, atonement was made for sin, and could literally apply to a believer who was "in Christ".

2) Righteousness of God that is imputed to all believers "In Christ", was finalized at the cross, When Jesus died on the cross. Jesus, as fully man and fully God, incarnate, was perfectly obedient in His life.

3) Jesus' death and resurrection. The means by which we are born again. "In Christ" We die with Him and are raised up with Him, spiritually reborn. A Holy God with Holy standards could not accept anything less.

The OT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit did not have these benefits...

Pentecost records "the Promise of the Father" being delivered to living OT saints who trusted the Gospel message and where still living after the cross. God gave "the promise of the Father" in a way that pulled together Jew and gentile believes. They didn't like each other very much.

The OT saint already dead, Jesus descended for three days and preached to them, probably sharing the Gospel, and then took them "paradise", to the third heaven when He ascended. Those OT saints, living and dead, could now be in the presence of the Father, because of what Jesus did and gave them.

In the OT, man could not be born again. OT saints were saved, believing in what was revealed to them them at the time they died. But these things Jesus did still had to literally happen for them to be in the presence of a perfectly, Holy, and perfectly Just God. They waited in Shoel OT, Hades NT translation (rhealm of the spirits). It's kind of a holding sell.

John 3:3,13 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ...13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.


Dave

 

[Dave...]

BTW, 'Hades' is just a Greek word that means 'realm of the spirits'. Since the NT was translated into Greek, it was the best translation. The idea comes from the OT 'Shoel' . Not to associated with the Indian Hades. It has nothing to do with that.

Also, the KJV many times wrongly translated a word to 'hell' , when the actual translation should have been 'Hades' . The NKJV corrects this.

...Unbelievers being kept in Hades still await the white throne judgment.

 

[Corinth77777]

I stand by my reply to your 'definition'.

I did reply.

As Jesus commanded baptism in His own name, I will defer to Him.(Matt 28:19)

If it isn't water that the Lord speaks of, then you are saying that men can give the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I can't agree.
Men water baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and that is what Jesus is commanding.

Was that just a waste of time ?
If you didn't believe it was a correct baptism, why did you allow it to occur ?

No need to go back and forth, If you don't believe God can meet people based on their knowledge then you don't.

I see we are judging again...no need to converse with that attitude.

 

[Corinth77777]

Do you think Peter was telling lies ?
I don't.
I think he was telling those people exactly what the Holy Ghost within him said to tell them.
Show any scripture that says men should be baptized in another way by other men, and I will change my belief.

Acts 10:28 proves my first point.
Rom 6:3-7 proves the other points
No speculation was necessary on my part.

Peter told them..that's what they should do..
And I believe you do speculate, because you state scriptures you cant prove. Conversation over...

 

[Corinth77777]

According to that, baptism is both a symbol and can wash away sins.
What is baptism using water for the remission of sins a symbol of ?

Those who want to please God will not be deceived by false distortions.
Water baptism does exactly what it was designed to do, wash away sins and destroy the old man...plus more.

What is "implied" by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is the application of the blood of Christ for the remission of past sins.
What is "implied" by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is the destruction of the old man and being resurrected with Christ from His grave as new creatures.
You allude to men who are washed of past sins by the blood of Christ without the actual washing, and kill and bury themselves, and are raised by themselves, to walk in newness of life.
How is anyone who is unaware of a Jesus going to do that naturally ?

"LIKE figure": so if baptism is only a figure, so too must Noah's arc only be a figure.
Is Noah's arc also just a mystical story, as you would have us believe water baptism is ?

Who cares how many translations there are.
False prophets don't take days off !
The Holy Spirit has gifted the authors of scripture with His translation.
Man's after the fact revisions are damnable.

How dose one remit their own sins ?
How doe one kill himself and get raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ?

So go back to what is written in the KJV of the bible !
Cut off the distortions !

Faith cometh by hearing. (Rom 10:17)
If a man wants to please God, God's word will be presented to him.

As a man who is not baptized into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection cannot walk without sin, he will surely not stand.

Why not keep it simple and use water ?
It was OK for the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip.

"Continually saved"?
One is either converted or they are not converted.

No need to respond because you have yet to prove anything. So as baby brother says, when He's tired of drama- "you win"

 

[donadams]

Born again by “Faith & baptism”!

“Baptismal regeneration” is the initiation into the new covenant!
Jn 3:5 cannot enter!
2 pet 1:11 an entrance shall be ministered unto you!

A sacrament is the fruit of the sacrifice of Christ, a sign that signifies what it accomplishes.

Washing ez 36:25-27 zech 13:1 acts 22:16 titus 3:5

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

The sacraments are signs of God’s grace!

The grace of justification in the power of the spirit is manifested by the sign of baptism!

 

[donadams]

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!
No union with God and His saints thru Christ the mediator!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone! Jn 3:5

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13 and cannot be repeated

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

 

[donadams]

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

 

[donadams]

Hi Don

At first, because you didn't use a capitol "s", by "spirit" did you mean our spirit? If that's what you meant, then yes, we are spiritually resurrected when we are born again, the physical resurrection come later.

But by you using the word "by", I think that you meant the Holy Spirit.

If you did mean the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the means by which we are joined to Jesus, thus being made one with Him. At that point, receiving the NT indwelling, or, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, all the benefits apply since we are complete in Him and lacking nothing. Even being filled with the Spirit is not receiving more of Him, He lives in us. It's activating, by obedience to God , what we already have.

I'm still not sure what you meant. Did I get it wrong?

For the discussion in general...

It's important to keep in mind that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are all recording things that happened in the OT. It's still the OT dispensation all the way up until Jesus dies on the cross. The writer of Hebrews tell us that a Testament is not activated until the Testator dies, and since Jesus rose from the dead, His Testament, or Covenant is permanent. So Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are technically OT up until each records the death of Christ on the cross.

So what the Gospels are saying is still from an OT perspective, still looking forward to the promise of the Father, which is still at that point OT prophecy. The new testament, begins at the cross.

John 16 13:14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Pentecost is the birth of the Church. Those who where OT saints still living, that heard and trusted in the NT Gospel, were due the "Promise of the Father", The Holy Spirit, the NT indwelling (seal), which could not be given until conditions were met.

So unless you are an OT saint, who trusted in the NT gospel before Christ died on the cross and were due the "promise of the Father". But had to wait until after the cross to receive it, then you don't need to wait. After the transition, we receive the Promise of the Father the moment we first believe. That's the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of subsequence that Charismatic and Pentecostals churches teach is unbiblical.

NT benefits that we could not receive until after the cross, for obvious reasons, because none of it happened yet. This is why OT saints, dead and alive, needed to wait.

1) Atonement for sin. His perfect obedience was not finalized "it is finished" until His death on the cross. The Lamb without blemish was the only acceptable sacrifice. After His death on the cross, atonement was made for sin, and could literally apply to a believer who was "in Christ".

2) Righteousness of God that is imputed to all believers "In Christ", was finalized at the cross, When Jesus died on the cross. Jesus, as fully man and fully God, incarnate, was perfectly obedient in His life.

3) Jesus' death and resurrection. The means by which we are born again. "In Christ" We die with Him and are raised up with Him, spiritually reborn. A Holy God with Holy standards could not accept anything less.

The OT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit did not have these benefits...

Pentecost records "the Promise of the Father" being delivered to living OT saints who trusted the Gospel message and where still living after the cross. God gave "the promise of the Father" in a way that pulled together Jew and gentile believes. They didn't like each other very much.

The OT saint already dead, Jesus descended for three days and preached to them, probably sharing the Gospel, and then took them "paradise", to the third heaven when He ascended. Those OT saints, living and dead, could now be in the presence of the Father, because of what Jesus did and gave them.

In the OT, man could not be born again. OT saints were saved, believing in what was revealed to them them at the time they died. But these things Jesus did still had to literally happen for them to be in the presence of a perfectly, Holy, and perfectly Just God. They waited in Shoel OT, Hades NT translation (rhealm of the spirits). It's kind of a holding sell.

John 3:3,13 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ...13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.


Dave

Sorry yes I’m meant Holy Spirit
Does Jn 3:5 say thevSpirit alone?

Promise in acts 2 refers to ez 36:25-27

Jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom with being born again or baptismal regeneration baptized

2 pet 1:11 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Thks

 

[donadams]

It has been said that Christians are born in the waters of baptism, and are fishes swimming in the waters of baptismal grace!

Not the dry barren wasteland of “faith alone” which Vipers prefer!

If “faith alone” were true Christ would be a doctrine alone, nothing but a doctrine to be believed!

Jesus Christ us our propitiatory sacrifice meriting the atonement, mercy, & grace that are applied to our souls in the administration of the sacraments.

Jesus Christ is Our salvation:

We must have Union with God and His saints in the new covenant by Jesus Christ the mediator, must be in Christ, put on Christ, members of Christ by the grace of faith & baptism.

The sacraments are the fruits of the sacrifice of Christ and produce sanctifying grace!

The Way, The Truth, & The Life! Jn 14:6

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Grace is the life of God in us.

Brought to life. Eph 2:1 & 2:5

Christ in His person is our salvation! Lk 2:30

Thks