Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[Hopeful 2]

BTW, 'Hades' is just a Greek word that means 'realm of the spirits'. Since the NT was translated into Greek, it was the best translation. The idea comes from the OT 'Shoel' . Not to associated with the Indian Hades. It has nothing to do with that.

Also, the KJV many times wrongly translated a word to 'hell' , when the actual translation should have been 'Hades' . The NKJV corrects this.

...Unbelievers being kept in Hades still await the white throne judgment.

What difference does it make whether it is called hell or hades ?
The connotation is the same.
Misery and hopelessness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No need to go back and forth, If you don't believe God can meet people based on their knowledge then you don't.

I know He won't "meet" them in a way that nullifies scripture.

I see we are judging again...no need to converse with that attitude.

It is written that he that is spiritual judges all things. (1 Cor 2:15)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Peter told them..that's what they should do..

If you actually believe that some have different requirements for salvation than others, then you must also believe that God is a respector of persons.

And I believe you do speculate, because you state scriptures you cant prove. Conversation over...

The scriptures I provided speak for themselves.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No need to respond because you have yet to prove anything. So as baby brother says, when He's tired of drama- "you win"

If you would rather approach it one point at time, I am willing to take that time.

 

[Corinth77777]

If you would rather approach it one point at time, I am willing to take that time.

No thank you: scripture says:
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good

One, you already showed you can't prove your points.

ROMANS 14:14

Who are you to pass judgment on another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord 1 is able to make him stand.

Two, you don't seem to believe that God works where one's knowledge is, Or believe the scripture above.
Man look at the outer appearance but God looks at the heart

 

[Corinth77777]

It is written that he that is spiritual judges all things. (1 Cor 2:15)

It is also written in 1 John 4:1 .....not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God...

 

[Corinth77777]

If you actually believe that some have different requirements for salvation than others, then you must also believe that God is a respector of persons.

The scriptures I provided speak for themselves.

Everyone has an opinion.

And until I finish studying I have to block you. I think it best not to go back and forth where it doesn't benifit those who are listening. Peace out!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There are some who believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation based on a handful of Scriptures.

Baptismal regeneration is the doctrine that baptism results in regeneration of the subject baptized. Usually based upon John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

I have concluded that Baptismal Regeration is a work added to Salvation and consider it a different Gospel.

Studying these scriptures and reading commentaries shed much light for me on this subject. I turn to men of God who are fluent in the original languages and understand hermeneutics more than I ever can.

There are many different interpretations of this verse including two births (physical and spiritual), water as a symbol for Holy Spirit or the word of God. I would like to focus on what some would believe is Baptismal Regenration (born of water).

There are other Scriptures that can be addressed as well.

This should be a good start.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 does not teach Baptismal Regeneration. In fact, it is not even referring to baptism! In John 3, Jesus makes the statement that, “Unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God” (3:3). In response, Nicodemus asks, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (3:4). Jesus’ answer is, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (3:5). In the context of this conversation it is more natural to understand Jesus’ use of the word “water” as a reference to physical birth rather than baptism. As every mother knows, all children are literally born “out of water.” Therefore, when Nicodemus asked, “Can a man be born a second time from his mother’s womb?” Jesus in essence conceded that a man had to be born of water, that is, physically. Yet, He went on to insist that the second birth was spiritual in nature. Thus, John 3 does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. It teaches that physical birth is. In other words, a person must be born before he can be born again. John 3:6 confirms this view, saying “that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” That says it all.
[1]Chafer Theological Seminary. (1997; 2002). Chafer Theological Seminary Journal Volume 3


Carson has an excellent argument against this interpretation writing that "If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14–15), the work of God himself (vv. 16–17), and the place of faith (vv. 15–16)....The Spirit plays a powerful role in John 14–16; 20:22, but there is no hint of baptism.....The entire view seems to rest on an unarticulated prejudice that every mention of water evoked instant recognition, in the minds of first-century readers, that the real reference was to baptism, but it is very doubtful that this prejudice can be sustained by the sources. Even so, this conclusion does not preclude the possibility of a secondary allusion to baptism" Borrow The Gospel according to John)

J M Boice - Unfortunately, this is not substantiated either by the text or by biblical theology. The text says nothing at all about baptism, and the Bible elsewhere teaches that no one is saved by any external rite of religion (1 Sam. 16:7; Rom. 2:28–29; Gal. 2:15, 16; 5:1–6). Baptism is a sign of what has already taken place, but it is not the agent by which it takes place.(Boice - The Gospel of John)

Kenneth Wuest - Others interpret the word “water” as referring to the rite of water baptism. But we submit that this is pure eisegesis, reading into the text something that is not there. Surely, the word “water” in itself, does not include within its meaning the idea of baptism. Furthermore, the only proper recipient of water baptism is one who has already been born again, the new-birth preceding water baptism, not the rite preceding the new birth. Again, the question arises as to how such a supernatural change as regeneration produces, could be the result of a mere ceremony.

MacArthur - Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist’s baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (Jn 4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. (See John Commentary - What Does It Mean to be Born of Water and Spirit?)

I listen to Rock Harbor church's podcast regularly. According to pastor Brandon, water baptism is a public declaration of your devotion in Christ, it functions as a rite of passage, from there on you're openly known and identified as a Christian; if you were previously of some other religion, now you're converted into Christianity, and that means new faith, new community, new worldview, etc., that's why it's important. Baptism itself is a ritual that imitates natural birth of emerging from the womb, eternal salvation is not contingent upon it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No thank you: scripture says:
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good

One, you already showed you can't prove your points.

ROMANS 14:14

Who are you to pass judgment on another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord 1 is able to make him stand.

Two, you don't seem to believe that God works where one's knowledge is, Or believe the scripture above.
Man look at the outer appearance but God looks at the heart

Can a man who still walks in the flesh obey God perfectly ?
God provided the way to destroy the old man, (kill the flesh), and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
That "way" is water baptism in then name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

If a man could walk in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh without baptism, then Christ died for nothing.
God won't hide His "way" from those who want to do naturally what the Jews failed to do by their Law

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is also written in 1 John 4:1 .....not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God...

Amen to that.
Look for the fruit !
If that fruit is not perfect, it is not of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I listen to Rock Harbor church's podcast regularly. According to pastor Brandon, water baptism is a public declaration of your devotion in Christ, it functions as a rite of passage, from there on you're openly known and identified as a Christian; if you were previously of some other religion, now you're converted into Christianity, and that means new faith, new community, new worldview, etc., that's why it's important. Baptism itself is a ritual that imitates natural birth of emerging from the womb, eternal salvation is not contingent upon it.

Your POV is contrary to Mark 16:16..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

 

[Dave...]

Sorry yes I’m meant Holy Spirit
Does Jn 3:5 say thevSpirit alone?

Promise in acts 2 refers to ez 36:25-27

Jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom with being born again or baptismal regeneration baptized

2 pet 1:11 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Thks

Hi Don.

I believe what is happening in this thread is that some are putting the cart before the horse. It's important to to make the distinction that baptism, the baptism that saves, the "one baptism", The baptism with the Holy Spirit, are all the same, and, is the result of a saving faith. Water baptism is not part of this equation. Faith equals baptism. Faith(you), = baptism (Jesus).

Our faith, then the Spirit baptism by Jesus in response, which results in salvation. Keep in mind, water baptism is a work.

Should we define John 3:5 within the context of, 1 Pet. 3:21, Col. 2:10, Gal.3:26-27 ?

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

11-12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Gal. 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Look at this Gal. verse closely. He clearly say "through faith". He didn't say, through faith and baptism . The baptism, Jesus's part, which he mentions next, is the result, because, it is a Spiritual baptism by Jesus, that is a "circumcision made without hands", "not the removal of the filth of the flesh".

Dave

 

[Dave...]

What difference does it make whether it is called hell or hades ?
The connotation is the same.
Misery and hopelessness.

Big distinction, I think. Mostly just trying to clarify context when I can.

Lazaras and the rich man is not a parable, it literally happened. (like that)

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Big distinction, I think. Mostly just trying to clarify context when I can.

If any distinction at all helps you understand God better, I am all for it.

Lazaras and the rich man is not a parable, it literally happened. (like that)

I disagree.

 

[Dave...]

If any distinction at all helps you understand God better, I am all for it.

I disagree.

I do think that it is significant that actual names are used. No other parable has ever done this. Don't want to take this thread there, but it is part of the bigger context of this discussion, that is "hades", had the "paradise" side, otherwise known as "Abraham's bosom" and the holding cell side for non believers. Unbelievers today are still sent there. Waiting for the great white thrown judgment. It's not hell.

I know the 'KJV onlyism' doesn't like to hear that. Don't know if you are or not, just saying...I believe it was a translation error in the KJV in many places.

Dave

 

[donadams]

Hi Don.

I believe what is happening in this thread is that some are putting the cart before the horse. It's important to to make the distinction that baptism, the baptism that saves, the "one baptism", The baptism with the Holy Spirit, are all the same, and, is the result of a saving faith. Water baptism is not part of this equation. Faith equals baptism. Faith(you), = baptism (Jesus).

Our faith, then the Spirit baptism by Jesus in response, which results in salvation. Keep in mind, water baptism is a work.

Should we define John 3:5 within the context of, 1 Pet. 3:21, Col. 2:10, Gal.3:26-27 ?

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

11-12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Gal. 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Look at this Gal. verse closely. He clearly say "through faith". He didn't say, through faith and baptism . The baptism, Jesus's part, which he mentions next, is the result, because, it is a Spiritual baptism by Jesus, that is a "circumcision made without hands", "not the removal of the filth of the flesh".

Dave

Please explain why mk 16:16 say faith and baptism

Jn 3:5
Whats the water for?

Acts 22:16 baptism

Jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom until born into it by baptism
Born again or baptismal regeneration

This must be done for you.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Thks

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your POV is contrary to Mark 16:16..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Baptized with what? By who? Your POV is contrary to Matt. 3:11 - “indeed I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water unto repentance, but she who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.”

 

[donadams]

Baptized with what? By who? Your POV is contrary to Matt. 3:11 - “indeed I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water unto repentance, but she who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.”

What is the fire?

 

[donadams]

(Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What is the fire?

That could be a general figure of speech for all the trials and tribulations we must endure, but also the final test of our work.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)