What I think... I have told you.
The Spirit was mostly a temporary experience and not an eternal indwelling.
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Is baptism required for salvation?
- Thread starter dwb001
- Start date
The Spirit was mostly a temporary experience and not an eternal indwelling.
Mungo
Member
Belief in Jesus requires obedience to him.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36).
"believes" in the Greek is pistou (G4100)
"does not obey" is apeitheo (G544)
So belief and obedience are essentially identical.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (G544)
to disbelieve, disobey
From apeithes; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) -- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
Consecrated Life
Member
So depending on what Jesus decides in each case , you believe it is possible for a person who loves Christ & accepts His blood shed for his own sins to end up in hell ?
Is that a yes or a no ?
Mungo
Member
It is not a question that I can answer with a yes or no.
The Spirit is a permanent indwelling in every Christian. God is not fickle and will not withdraw this most important gift.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Corinthians 3:17
"But because of false brothers and sisters secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us— we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you." Galatians 2:4-5
"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1
"For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another." Galatians 5:13
"As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil." 1 Peter 2:16
Now, is it time to return to the OP's subject: is baptism required for salvation? The clear and obvious answer is clearly "no".
Consecrated Life
Member
Consecrated Life said:
So depending on what Jesus decides in each case , you believe it is possible for a person who loves Christ & accepts His blood shed for his own sins to end up in hell ?
Or that he would spell it out directly & clearly as in , " No Water Baptism = Eternity in Hell " ?
So depending on what Jesus decides in each case , you believe it is possible for a person who loves Christ & accepts His blood shed for his own sins to end up in hell ?
Well since the question directly involves an eternity in hell, do you think that it is more in keeping with Christ's character as you know Him that He would leave the certainty of eternity hell for failing the water baptism ritual to be a matter of anyone's guess?
Or that he would spell it out directly & clearly as in , " No Water Baptism = Eternity in Hell " ?
Edward
2024 Supporter
I think they are confusing it. Baptism is not a requirement to receive salvation, that is a free gift. But let's not forget that we receive two things when Jesus comes for us, Salvation and Inheritance. Maybe the Lord wants for you to be baptised because it will make your inheritance nicer?
He said, I come quickly and my reward is with me.
So, build up your treasures in Heaven sounds like a good plan.
Baptism is like you turning on your lamp in front of the world and says, Here I am, I belong to the Lord.
Consecrated Life
Member
Exactly Edward.
It is only taken to the extreme Pharisee. make you or break you, type interpretation that you get me to draw a line. I believe water baptism for the believer is a pleasing thing to God when done for the right reason.
I think just like Baptism God commanded His Holy institution of Marriage for us because it is pleasing to Him as well.
Does that mean then that all Marriages are pleasing to God ?
What is done for pleasing man , and for what man values are not what pleases and has value to God .
For me it is much like the rules that God gave to the Jews that was for their good & pleasing to God but then men took them to the extreme and twisted them, which resulted in Moses having to make provision / modification for what Jesus called " hardness of our hearts "
Mat 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Two asked something of Jesus and only one received a reply. The one who believed in Him. The one who feared God.
That one had his sins forgiven by Jesus. Jesus has authority to forgive sins, is the one who judges and is Lord of all.
Circumstances prevented that man from an outward confession of faith and pledging a clear conscience before God in what is defined as the sacrament of water baptism. God is not limited in how He chooses to pour out His mercy and "grace".
Grace is grace. As in grace through faith.
Though baptism is shown in scripture as a sacrament of grace offered, as reasoned, God reconciled to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through Christs blood, shed on the cross. Such reconciliation provided in whole is received through faith in Jesus.
We are sanctified by our faith in Jesus.
Biblical references???
Or is this just your opinion?
Also this part of the conversation is about the OT moves of the Spirit.
So Baptism is not required.
Thanks for the input.
Mungo,
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).
You quoted a portion of the NT that is not recognized as NT Scripture. Therefore, it is invalid in supporting your point.
Oz
Its true isn't it? That is he who believes and is baptized is saved?
Robertson's full statement on Mark 16:16 is: "
Verse 16
And is baptized (κα βαπτισθεις). The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. Baptism is merely the picture of the new life not the means of securing it. So serious a sacramental doctrine would need stronger support anyhow than this disputed portion of Mark.Oz
The Spirit gifted to the believer is forever.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Jesus won't forsake us
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Its debatable in Christian beliefs in regard to the possibility of one born again denying knowing or disowning Jesus. As in forsaking Jesus but that point is made if we disown Him He will disown us but if we become faithless He will remain faithful because God can not disown Himself as we know Christ and the believer are one.
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Consecrated Life
Member
If water Baptism is the make it or break it for salvation , how was Jesus able to pronounce Zacchaeus saved ?
Why does Jesus's response to Zacchaeus's professed joyful transformation , not include the dire warning that he must now be baptized or his joy will be turned to weeping as he finds himself one day on a rocket sled to hell ?
If there ever was an instance in scripture where Jesus could have on a personal level used the experience of someone coming to belief in His very presence to make clear for the ages that the deal was not yet sealed, this was it .
Was Jesus cruelly withholding the vital final step of baptism from the joyful Zacchaeus, because secretly Jesus felt that Zacchaeus deserved to go to hell because of his greedy tax collecting ?
Luk 19:8
¶
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Why does Jesus's response to Zacchaeus's professed joyful transformation , not include the dire warning that he must now be baptized or his joy will be turned to weeping as he finds himself one day on a rocket sled to hell ?
If there ever was an instance in scripture where Jesus could have on a personal level used the experience of someone coming to belief in His very presence to make clear for the ages that the deal was not yet sealed, this was it .
Was Jesus cruelly withholding the vital final step of baptism from the joyful Zacchaeus, because secretly Jesus felt that Zacchaeus deserved to go to hell because of his greedy tax collecting ?
Luk 19:8
¶
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
And how does this apply to an Old Testament move of the Spirit?
This is what I saw=>Jebo-The Spirit is a permanent indwelling in every Christian. God is not fickle and will not withdraw this most important gift.
You-Or is this just your opinion?
I overlooked the OT part. Which is confusing to me considering the OP.