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Is baptism required for salvation?

wondering said:
I think we also need to know what God considers to be truly loving Him and truly obeying Him.
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1 John 5:3
3 Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.../NLT

It isn't hard until temptation comes along. Then it can get hard. But if one listens to their conscience and obeys what it says, the believer can say, no. That would not be pleasing to God. This is obedience.

Now you know how to make an outward expression of your love for God!
 
Edward said:
But you do, don't you? It does not happen in every moment but the scripture talks about being in Christ, and Christ in us, right?

And it also talks about, you will be given what to say. Now sometimes we have carnal thoughts or even thoughts projected into our mind by the enemy. God does the same thing with us, He can put thoughts into your head too, and does. It might be a thought, it might be a scripture or whatever.

So what we have to do is to cultivate the mind of Christ in us. Which is to say, listen to Him and obey. I think He speaks to us through our conscience also.

What God considers loving Him is told to us plainly in scripture...If you Love me, you will keep My Commandments.
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Agreed on above....
but Jesus DID leave the commandment to be baptized.

But, if I remember, He only told the Apostles to baptize after His resurrection.
To baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19

Did Jesus mention baptism in any other verse that you can think of?

But, in any case, it WAS a commandment.
But why only at the end of His mission....

Thoughts?

Mungo
Jethro Bodine
JLB
jaybo
 
Edward said:
1 John 5:3
3 Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.../NLT

It isn't hard until temptation comes along. Then it can get hard. But if one listens to their conscience and obeys what it says, the believer can say, no. That would not be pleasing to God. This is obedience.

Now you know how to make an outward expression of your love for God!
Click to expand...
You've hit on the difference between the Old Covenant (Mosaic) and the New Covenant...
Our love for God makes us want to please Him.

Simple.
 
Baptism mean immersion. If I am baptized into Christ and/or the Holy Spirit, that means that I am "immersed" into Him; I become one with Him. The word does not specifically mean being sprinkled or immersed in water.
 
Mungo said:
I don't know the mind of God.
Only God can see into a persons heart.
What God considers loving him only God can truly know.
What God considers believing/obeying him only God can truly know.
Click to expand...
You don't know what position would be more in keeping to the character of Christ as you know Him according to His Word?
 
wondering said:
Agreed on above....
but Jesus DID leave the commandment to be baptized.

But, if I remember, He only told the Apostles to baptize after His resurrection.
To baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19

Did Jesus mention baptism in any other verse that you can think of?

But, in any case, it WAS a commandment.
But why only at the end of His mission....

Thoughts?

Mungo
Jethro Bodine
JLB
jaybo
Click to expand...

It is a commandment to be baptized. But I don't think that Jesus let's it stand in the way of salvation for us, He loves us too much! All those people who pray to be forfiven on their deathbed could not be saved if they had never been baptized. And I don't believe that Jesus turns a deaf ear to those people. He saves them! That's what He does.

Maybe those on their deathbed who have never obeyed the commandment to be baptized so it is sin for them...Maybe that sin gets forgiven right then along with the rest of his sin at the same time?
 
wondering said:
You've hit on the difference between the Old Covenant (Mosaic) and the New Covenant...
Our love for God makes us want to please Him.

Simple.
Click to expand...

I did, didn't I? It's the same answer for those works based salvation? threads where they try to justify not working in the Lords fields or producing fruit. Wanting to please the Lord through works is a natural progression in knowing our Lord, because, that's what He does.
 
Edward said:
It is a commandment to be baptized. But I don't think that Jesus let's it stand in the way of salvation for us, He loves us too much! All those people who pray to be forfiven on their deathbed could not be saved if they had never been baptized. And I don't believe that Jesus turns a deaf ear to those people. He saves them! That's what He does.

Maybe those on their deathbed who have never obeyed the commandment to be baptized so it is sin for them...Maybe that sin gets forgiven right then along with the rest of his sin at the same time?
Click to expand...

You do understand that water baptism is for people who are saved?


We are saved, born again, regenerated when we hear and believe the Gospel, in which we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.

This is the baptism by which we are saved (born again). In this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the One who is the Baptizer.

With water baptism, man is the one who is baptizing.

Believing is the condition that is required for salvation.

(What biblical believing means is another subject)

Scriptural Example #1 —

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

The condition that was lacking in those by the wayside was believing.


Scriptural Example #2 —

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is where biblical believing is highlighted.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey the Gospel; believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

This is where the grace of God, (the Holy Spirit) empowers us to confess Jesus as Lord, which is obeying the Gospel command to repent.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

This is the grace (Spirit of grace) part of the equation.


The thief on the cross as an example of believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-42

  • Lord — the thief confessed Jesus as Lord.

  • remember me when You come into Your kingdom. — He believed in his heart that this was not the end of the line for Jesus, but that He would be raised from the dead and come into His kingdom.


The Point:

Water baptism is for those who have already believed and are saved.



JLB
 
JLB said:
You do understand that water baptism is for people who are saved?


We are saved, born again, regenerated when we hear and believe the Gospel, in which we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.

This is the baptism by which we are saved (born again). In this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the One who is the Baptizer.

With water baptism, man is the one who is baptizing.

Believing is the condition that is required for salvation.

(What biblical believing means is another subject)

Scriptural Example #1 —

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

The condition that was lacking in those by the wayside was believing.


Scriptural Example #2 —

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is where biblical believing is highlighted.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey the Gospel; believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

This is where the grace of God, (the Holy Spirit) empowers us to confess Jesus as Lord, which is obeying the Gospel command to repent.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

This is the grace (Spirit of grace) part of the equation.


The thief on the cross as an example of believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-42

  • Lord — the thief confessed Jesus as Lord.

  • remember me when You come into Your kingdom. — He believed in his heart that this was not the end of the line for Jesus, but that He would be raised from the dead and come into His kingdom.


The Point:

Water baptism is for those who have already believed and are saved.



JLB
Click to expand...

Okay, good point. But it still sounds like baptizm is a commandment but just not crucial for salvation.
 
Edward said:
It is a commandment to be baptized. But I don't think that Jesus let's it stand in the way of salvation for us, He loves us too much! All those people who pray to be forfiven on their deathbed could not be saved if they had never been baptized. And I don't believe that Jesus turns a deaf ear to those people. He saves them! That's what He does.

Maybe those on their deathbed who have never obeyed the commandment to be baptized so it is sin for them...Maybe that sin gets forgiven right then along with the rest of his sin at the same time?
Click to expand...
Yes, that makes sense.
 
Edward said:
Okay, good point. But it still sounds like baptizm is a commandment but just not crucial for salvation.
Click to expand...

The baptism that is required for salvation is the one where the Holy Spirit baptizes you into Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

This is the baptism where the Holy Spirit is the one Baptizing you.

Water baptism is when a man baptizes you.

The baptism with the Spirit is the baptism where Jesus baptizes you with the Holy Spirit.


I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 3:11
 
JLB said:
You do understand that water baptism is for people who are saved?
Click to expand...

Sure I do. That's why water baptizm is not a requirement for salvation. The thief could not come down from His cross to get baptized, and Jesus still said, no sweat, you will be saved.
 
Edward said:
Sure I do. That's why water baptizm is not a requirement for salvation. The thief could not come down from His cross to get baptized, and Jesus still said, no sweat, you will be saved.
Click to expand...

The baptism I believe Jesus is referring to in Mark 16, is the baptism made without hands, by the Spirit. The only one that joins us with Christ, in which we become one with the Spirit of life in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17
 
The thief did come down from his cross:


John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.



Christ said to the thief today you will be with me in paradise, Jesus was dead three days and nights in the heart of the earth:


Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



Baptism is believing that the thief on the cross did not have to die physically to be with Christ, but to die, ( cease.) from unbelief.



Baptism ( belief) is solely by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which the thief got to believe in as he was taken down with broken legs, from the cross he was on, to be with Christ, who was three days and nights in the heart of the earth. ( the answer of that good conscience/.belief, toward God by Jesus Christ.)



1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 
Water baptism is still required for salvation, belief in the water that comes from the side of Jesus ( when the thief was taken down from the cross to be baptised with belief in Jesus Christ.)

Discussions are futile, you cant leave out any scriptures, so why discuss your topics, as if you can.

Baptized is also washing away our sins, knowing Christ washed us from our sins in His own blood. ( Jesus Christ came by water and blood, not by water only, but by water and blood.)



John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.



1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
 
Edward said:
It is a commandment to be baptized. But I don't think that Jesus let's it stand in the way of salvation for us, He loves us too much! All those people who pray to be forfiven on their deathbed could not be saved if they had never been baptized. And I don't believe that Jesus turns a deaf ear to those people. He saves them! That's what He does.

Maybe those on their deathbed who have never obeyed the commandment to be baptized so it is sin for them...Maybe that sin gets forgiven right then along with the rest of his sin at the same time?
Click to expand...
The one being baptized is not the one baptizing.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
 
gordon777 said:
Jesus Christ came by water and blood, not by water only, but by water and blood.)
Click to expand...

When we read and understand the context of 1 John 5, we see that it is about Jesus being the true Messiah, the Christ; the Son of God.

Contextual Framework for verse 6 —

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1 John 5:10

This is only possible because He came into this world from the womb of a virgin.

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14



This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

  • He who came by water and blood

Every human being comes into this world by water, which is to say...
”born of water”.

Only a person who is born of a virgin, comes into this world by water and blood. (the blood of the mothers intact hymen).


The intact hymen breaks along with the virgin mothers “water sac”.




JLB
 
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