Is baptism required for salvation?

[Randy]

The larger context as been overlooked. "Make Disciples"
Baptism was ordained by Jesus and whose name to baptize in was given. No rules on who to baptize or how to baptize were outlined/directed by the Lord as His intended purpose was to "make disciples". So the teaching part was an important role. I was baptized as an infant but I have seen pictures that my mother has of me being on stage in church at about the age of 3 playing a Shepard or at least dressed in costume as a Shepard standing on stage. I have no memory of that event but clearly I was steered to Christ by my mother and taught things in church that played an important role of my faith in Christ Jesus. So its a bigger picture than water baptism. That is "making" disciples.

Further more I believe in this day and age any ordained clergy in a Church preaching Christ can baptize anyone. Old or young, rich or poor, male or female, and such baptism is within the framework of authority given by the head of the body of Christ. Christ Jesus our Lord. So if they baptize "anyone" that person is baptized in Christs eyes. The method or age of the person is arguments of the origin of man.

As has been pointed out by others Jesus baptizes with the Spirit of God. As is in the NT the Spirit Jesus sends in His name He received from the Father. Now there were conditions taught in regard to receiving this Spirit. Jesus stated if you love Him and keep His commands "Then" He would send the gift of God to us to be with us forever.

“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him

 

[Mungo]

Thank you for the compliment. Are you finally understanding that baptism in water (or the totally unbiblical sprinkling of an infant) is not a requirement for salvation?

See my post #9 to understand my belief.

 

[jaybo]

See my post #9 to understand my belief.

I know your belief. It's Catholic doctrine, but it's not biblical.

 

[Mungo]

I know your belief. It's Catholic doctrine, but it's not biblical.

And you are wrong on that.

 

[WIP]

Reminder from the TOS.

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

 

[DJT_47]

According to the scriptures baptism is absolutely required for salvation. 100% without a doubt.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

 

[DJT_47]

Here is the requirements for salvation.

Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.../

That's one of the elements along with belief, faith, repentance, and baptism. Read the account of the conversion of Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 as well as the conversion of the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Combine those two accounts and you get the entire picture.

 

[gordon777]

When we read and understand the context of 1 John 5, we see that it is about Jesus being the true Messiah, the Christ; the Son of God.

To understand better the purpose of 1 John 5, all we need to do is see the previous chapter that leads up to it, to know exactly what we will be told about, in 1 John 5. ( relevance is all important.)



1 John 4, immediately begins speaking about the denying that goes on now in the world of Christ, b the many false prophet ( teacher) antichrists.

The spirit that does not confess that Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.



1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



Here is how I can show who is that antichrist. 1 John 4 manifests it, it is the love God had for us, sending the only begotten son into the world ( to die for us and so we live through His blood and water, given for us to eat and drink, to be forgiveness for our sins.)


1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.



Confession separates those of God, from those many who pretend they are.

WHOSOEVER shall confess ( is enabled to believe, by God to make true confession.) that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in them, and they dwell in God, to know and believe the LOVE, God had for us, and then that believer who dwells in love, dwells in God and God in him.



1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.





NOW, it is MADE RELEVANT, to turn the page, to 1 John 5.

We are to overcome this world ( of many false prophet/teachers.) by believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God ( by believing in the love God had for us, to be propitiation for our sins, which the antichrist neither confesses, nor can believe in, nor even speak of, but who also must deny it.)

This is the Son of God who came by water and blood.

The three that bear witness on earth are the water and blood Christ came to this world by, and the Spirit bears witness, because the is truth.

The witness of God is greater than the witness of men. The witness that God gives is what He testified of His Son. ( to believe unlike the antichrists, the love that God had for us, to be propitiation for our sins washing us in His own blood, so then we also dwell in love which is to dwell in God.)

The ones ( many antichrist, false prophet/teachers.) that believe not on the Son of God ( Him being propitiation for our sins through His own blood of the covenant.) believe not the RECORD, that God gave of His Son.

THIS IS THE RECORD: that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. ( believing that Jesus Christ layed HIs life down for us, to live by both the water and blood He gave for us at His death.)



1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.




By the BLOOD of the Messiahs covenant, the prisoners ( in death of no belief) are sent forth out of the pit where there was no WATER.

The first covenant was not dedicated without BLOOD.

Moses took the BLOOD, with WATER, and SPRINKLED, the book and all the people.



Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,




Now we look to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the BLOOD of SPRINKLING. ( the blood of eternal life.)

Elect are according to the foreknowledge of God, sanctification of the Spirit ( the Spirit that bears witness is greater than the witness of men.) unto obedience ( believing in the love God had for us to die for us WASHING US/BAPTISING US, IN HIS OWN BLOOD. Revelation 1:5.) and SPINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST.



Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[gordon777]

According to the scriptures baptism is absolutely required for salvation. 100% without a doubt.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

Baptism is belief.

There is ONE, body, ONE Spirit, ONE hope of calling, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.

We are buried with Christ in that ONE baptism, to be risen with Him THROUGH THE FAITH, of the operation of God who raised Christ from the dead.

Baptism also now saves us, as baptism is the ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARDS GOD, BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST. ( from the dead burial we were baptised with Him in, to also be risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who raised Him from the dead.)



Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[gordon777]

The question then is, how do we get that life in the Son in us ?


1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.



John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.



Yes, to eat the flesh of the Son of man ( believing He came in the flesh.) and drink His blood, to have life in us.

Drinking of His cup, and being baptized with the baptism that Christ is baptized of.



Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.



His blood is drink indeed, so who comes to it, who thirsts to come to the waters ?



Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.



Why drink of the water that men offer, ( their teaching and witness) why not drink of the water that Christ gives, to not thirst again, as the water ( testimony of God of His Son.) that Christ gives, is in us a well of water springing up into everlasting life. ( the life is in His Son, not in men.)


John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.




The last great day, does anyone hear Jesus standing and crying, to you who thirst, to come unto Jesus and drink ?

If anyone believes on Him, the scripture shows ( for belief) out of the belly of Christ shall flow rivers of living water. ( the record God gave of His Son is eternal life in His Son.)

This is the Spirit, which they who believe on Him should receive, the Holy Ghost to be given when Jesus was glorified.



John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)




The side of Jesus was pierced, and there came out blood and water.

He that saw it bore witness, his record is true, and he knows that he said truth, that we might believe. ( that Jesus is the Son of God, that we might live.)

God poured upon the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace, and they looked upon Christ who they pierced, and mourned for Him, as one mourns for his only son, in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for their first born.



Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

 

[JLB]

To understand better the purpose of 1 John 5, all we need to do is see the previous chapter that leads up to it, to know exactly what we will be told about, in 1 John 5. ( relevance is all important.)



1 John 4, immediately begins speaking about the denying that goes on now in the world of Christ, b the many false prophet ( teacher) antichrists.

The spirit that does not confess that Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.



1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



Here is how I can show who is that antichrist. 1 John 4 manifests it, it is the love God had for us, sending the only begotten son into the world ( to die for us and so we live through His blood and water, given for us to eat and drink, to be forgiveness for our sins.)


1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.



Confession separates those of God, from those many who pretend they are.

WHOSOEVER shall confess ( is enabled to believe, by God to make true confession.) that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in them, and they dwell in God, to know and believe the LOVE, God had for us, and then that believer who dwells in love, dwells in God and God in him.



1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.





NOW, it is MADE RELEVANT, to turn the page, to 1 John 5.

We are to overcome this world ( of many false prophet/teachers.) by believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God ( by believing in the love God had for us, to be propitiation for our sins, which the antichrist neither confesses, nor can believe in, nor even speak of, but who also must deny it.)

This is the Son of God who came by water and blood.

The three that bear witness on earth are the water and blood Christ came to this world by, and the Spirit bears witness, because the is truth.

The witness of God is greater than the witness of men. The witness that God gives is what He testified of His Son. ( to believe unlike the antichrists, the love that God had for us, to be propitiation for our sins washing us in His own blood, so then we also dwell in love which is to dwell in God.)

The ones ( many antichrist, false prophet/teachers.) that believe not on the Son of God ( Him being propitiation for our sins through His own blood of the covenant.) believe not the RECORD, that God gave of His Son.

THIS IS THE RECORD: that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. ( believing that Jesus Christ layed HIs life down for us, to live by both the water and blood He gave for us at His death.)



1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.




By the BLOOD of the Messiahs covenant, the prisoners ( in death of no belief) are sent forth out of the pit where there was no WATER.

The first covenant was not dedicated without BLOOD.

Moses took the BLOOD, with WATER, and SPRINKLED, the book and all the people.



Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,




Now we look to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the BLOOD of SPRINKLING. ( the blood of eternal life.)

Elect are according to the foreknowledge of God, sanctification of the Spirit ( the Spirit that bears witness is greater than the witness of men.) unto obedience ( believing in the love God had for us to die for us WASHING US/BAPTISING US, IN HIS OWN BLOOD. Revelation 1:5.) and SPINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST.



Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Jesus came into this world by both water and blood, signifying that He is the Messiah, the Son of God born of a virgin.

The Spirit is the witness of this, and therefore the Spirit bears witness to this.





JLB

 

[gordon777]

To believe and be saved, is for the devil to not take the Word away out of our hearts.

He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and the ones who believe not, shall be damned.

If we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in our heart that God raised Christ from the dead we shall be saved.

With the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ( in the heart man believes unto righteousness.) They on the good ground, are they with an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, ( He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.) keep it and bring forth fruit with patience. ( buried with Christ in baptism, they who were baptized were baptized unto His death and same baptism. Romans 6:3-4. Matthew 20:23.)




Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



The Apostles of the Lord teach until it is made clear, nothing to be known among the believers, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. ( as they who are baptized unto His death, shall be saved.)

For Christ sent not Apostle Paul to baptize ( the baptism of Christ is us being buried with Him in the same baptism Christ was baptized unto.)

The preaching of the cross, ( which is how we believe and are baptized to be saved.) is foolishness to them that perish. ( they who do not believe are damned.) but to the saved, ( he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.) it is the power of God.

The wise of this world and disputers, have their wisdom brought to nothing ( by the preaching of the cross, which is the wisdom of God.)

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching ( of the cross of Christ.) to save them that believe. ( he that is baptized, in the same baptism that Christ was baptized of on the cross, shall be saved.)

We are saved if we keep in memory what is preached to us, unless we have believed in vain. ( nothing save Jesus Christ and Him crucified is preached to us.)




1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus came into this world by both water and blood, signifying that He is the Messiah, the Son of God born of a virgin.

The Spirit is the witness of this, and therefore the Spirit bears witness to this.





JLB

Jesus made it clear to us: VERILY, EXCEPT, we eat and drink the flesh and blood of Christ, we have no life in us.

Unless the blood of Christ is shed for us, to believe in His blood, we would have no life in us.

The Messiah has to die for us, and we have to believe in His blood shed for us, or we have no life and will remain dead.

Signifying that Christ is the Messiah born of a virgin, does not save us, because it was EXPEDIENT FOR US, that Christ went away. ( to death and then resurrection, for the Comforter to come to us, which is when Christ became our Saviour, by giving us the water we needed from His side being pierced.)




John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



Here is more info for the Messiah.

Messiah we know is anointed one. Jesus is born of a virgin, our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience, ( by the blood of sprinkling of Christ) and our bodies washed in pure water. ( knowing Christ is born of a virgin, is not our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, nor our bodies washed in pure water)

When the Messiah has the sceptre of His righteousness and His throne for ever, that is the Messiah taking part in flesh and blood, through death to deliver ( save us as our Lord and Saviour.) and it is the Messiah loving righteousness, and hating iniquity ( by taking all our iniquity upon Himself.) and this is God anointing Jesus with the oil of gladness above His fellows. This is the same Jesus who Israel crucified, both Lord and Christ. This is when Jesus is the Messiah/anointed one/ anointed with the oil of gladness above all others who were anointed on earth.




Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Matthew 21:42.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[gordon777]

The words are clear regarding a virgin conceiving and bearing a son, which is God with us. This is the Lord giving Israel a sign.

The Jews of Israel asked of Jesus a sign, for doing all the things He was doing.

For the Jews require a sign.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews this is a stumbling block.

Unto those which are called, it is the power and the wisdom of God. ( the power and wisdom of God is God raising Christ from the dead for us to believe in and be SAVED.)



Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?


1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.




Signs do not save us, believing in Christ rising from the dead to life does. Jesus is not the Messiah/anointed one, Lord and Christ, until He was crucified and rose again for us. Acts 2:36.

That is He who came by water and blood, by blood which He gave for us to live by. ( it would be by water only if He did not need to give us life out of His blood shed for us, as life is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11.)

The witness God gave us of His Son, is not a sign that the Jews require, and stumble then on stumbling stones. The witness God gives of His Son is the Spirit, the water and the blood, all which have life in them, which Christ gave us all three through His death and resurrection.



1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

 

[gordon777]

Anyone on this forum actually understand and agree to the testimonies God gave us to believe in ?

 

[JLB]

Signifying that Christ is the Messiah born of a virgin, does not save us,

The context of 1 John 5:6 is not about ”saving us” but the witness of Christ being the true Messiah. John is establishing the principle of two or three “witnesses” being necessary to validate every truth.



Remember that this epistle was most probably written during or even after the time he wrote the book of Revelation which was a time of great persecution by the Roman Empire upon Christians.

Reaffirming and establishing the truth of who Jesus is, so that people who were being martyred and tortured understood they had not chosen to follow some phony preacher, but were serving the true Messiah, the Son of the living God.

If people under persecution believed Jesus was not the Messiah, they would depart from Him, and choose to save their own rather than suffer persecution and death because of Him.


That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1 John 1:1-2


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:6-8

• This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.

The word “came” refers to came into this world.

Everyone comes into this world by water, that is to say, “born of water”.


Only Jesus was came into this world, born of a virgin, which means He came into this world by water and blood.


Surely you understand that a woman who is a virgin, still has her hymen intact, right?

A virgin who was given birth to a child would then have her water sac break as well as her hymen, in which the blood in her water sac from her hymen would “bear witness” that the child was born of a virgin.




JLB

 

[gordon777]

The context of 1 John 5:6 is not about ”saving us”

The Holy scriptures are able to make us wise to salvation ( to save us)

All scripture is by inspiration of God for instruction in righteousness ( which is what saves us)

The context of 1 John 5:6, is as scripture testifies of it, not as anyone dismisses it as.



2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[gordon777]

If people under persecution believed Jesus was not the Messiah, they would depart from Him, and choose to save their own rather than suffer persecution and death because of Him.


That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1 John 1:1-2

The Gospel of John tells of the beginning with the Word, and how life was in Him, and the life was the light of men.

1 John 1, is an update, because John had handled the word of life, as the life was manifested. ( the Apostles are eyewitnesses of the risen Lord, to see His hands and His feet where the blood had been spilt. This is then confirmed in 1 John 1, how they saw it with their eyes, they looked upon, and their actual hands handled of the Word of life, this is why the Apostle bears witness in 1 john 1, and why they confirm they have seen it, and why they are then showing unto us that eternal life, which they saw, as it was manifested to them.

Your idea of persecution, is not what the scriptures have testified, so of course I have given the scriptures to return the true witnessed context for us all.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

 

[gordon777]

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:6-8

• This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.

The word “came” refers to came into this world.

Everyone comes into this world by water, that is to say, “born of water”.


Only Jesus was came into this world, born of a virgin, which means He came into this world by water and blood.


Surely you understand that a woman who is a virgin, still has her hymen intact, right?

A virgin who was given birth to a child would then have her water sac break as well as her hymen, in which the blood in her water sac from her hymen would “bear witness” that the child was born of a virgin.




JLB

We are saved by belief in the rising of Christ from the dead, which all scriptures point towards.

Jesus came into this world with life, life in the water, life in the blood and life in the Spirit.



Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

[gordon777]

A virgin who was given birth to a child would then have her water sac break as well as her hymen, in which the blood in her water sac from her hymen would “bear witness” that the child was born of a virgin.




JLB

Yes everybody has it manifested, that you wish to conclude that 1 john 5:6, has no context for saving us. That would allow for a private interpretation, and conclusion that the water, blood and Spirit, in that verse are talking about Jesus being born of a virgin. ( and not require acknowledgment that this is testifying about salvation, in the blood water and Spirit of Christ, all of which have life in them, which He shed for us in order to give us the Spirit blood and water of Christ.)