Is belief "works"?

[Ernest T. Bass]

And here, once again, you have illustrated how your church's doctrine has gone far afield of what the bible truly teaches.

Once again you accuse me of being "wrong" but provided zero, nil, nada, proof. Just saying someone is wrong is far from PROVING someone is wrong. Where is you biblical proof?


[Furthermore I do not have a church or a doctrine, but Christ has one NT doctrine and one NT church though.]

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If belief counts as works, does anyone believe they've been saved?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Belief is a work, Jesus said so Himself, Jn 6:27-29 And there are many examples from the NT of those saved by a obedient working belief as Peter's listeners in Acts 2 whose belief (pricked hearts) led them to obey what Peter preached.

 

[reba]

Act_9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Act_15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Act_16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.


Rom_16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1Co_11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Co_16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1Co_16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Co_8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2Co_8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2Co_8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2Co_8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2Co_8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2Co_11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

2Co_11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

2Co_12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Gal_1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Gal_1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

1Th_2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2Th_1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Rev_1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and senditunto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev_1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev_2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev_2:11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev_2:17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receivethit.

Rev_2:23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev_2:29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev_3:6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev_3:13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev_3:22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev_22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,andthe bright and morning star.

 

[Butch5]

I thought that faith in the blood of Christ did this (1 John 1.7).

In that passage he's talking about the present tense. However, just because remission comes through Christ doesn't mean it negates the rest of what the Bible says. Going through a tunnel gets me from one side to the other, however, just because I went through the tunnel doesn't mean I didn't also go through the mountain. If the Scriptures say in one place that remission comes through baptism and in another remission comes through the blood, we don't pick which one we want to believe, we say remission comes through both the baptism and the blood. The problem arises when Christians want to pick one to fit a theological dogma and ignore the other one. We know that only those who believe in Christ (the Blood) receive baptism so in effect baptism also comes through the blood.

 

[Butch5]

No, they were under the original covenant of works that was established with Adam. That covenant was not replaced until Jesus.

Are you saying that when Paul says Abraham was justified by faith that he is wrong?

 

[Butch5]

Really? In Genesis 2 God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, this is tantamount to a covenant as there was a condition, or consequence, should Adam disobey. That if Adam should eat of that tree he would surely die.

So it's not actually a covenant according to Scripture but rather just your opinion, correct?

 

[Knotical]

So it's not actually a covenant according to Scripture but rather just your opinion, correct?

Not at all. Adam was under a covenant of works, this was eventually replaced by the covenant of grace when Jesus died on the cross. This is a biblical truth.

 

[Deborah13]

Doesn't Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith the way we are? If so then weren't the OT people also under grace?

Before the law came, salvation was by faith. Abraham was found to be righteous because of His faith. The Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments did come until 400 yrs or so after Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

Not at all. Adam was under a covenant of works, this was eventually replaced by the covenant of grace when Jesus died on the cross. This is a biblical truth.

Where do we find said covenant in the Scriptures? If you want to say that a single command is a covenant, then the same applies in the New Covenant. Jesus said to His disciples, keep my commands. So, Christians are under a works covenant also using the definition of covenant that you've supplied.

 

[Butch5]

Before the law came, salvation was by faith. Abraham was found to be righteous because of His faith. The Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments did come until 400 yrs or so after Abraham.

That's my point. If Abraham was justified by faith then both Old and New Testament saints are under grace. Some say the OT saints were under law and the NT saints are under grace. Actually, both are/were under grace and Law. God said,

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:31-34 KJV)


There are Law under the New Covenant also.

 

[Mike]

There will always be believers stuck in the mud. They believe Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. They cannot accept Christ's words when he announced, "It is finished.". There is something more that needs to be done, and they need to do what the cross was unable to do. For some, this is done by X number of prayers, for others it is a set of rules to follow, such as - no musical instruments in worship. Every day, their salvation is contingent on everything the do and say or don't do and don't say.

I agree completely with Knotical who has been saying all along that good works are a natural response God's Grace by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They are a response to, not a means of, salvation.

Rules and deeds do not regenerate.

Romans 4
"4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.â€

Would that we all believed in the sacrifice on Calvary; that it accomplished everything.

 

[BornAgain]

Some people teach that grace is the only thing that you need and that there is nothing you have to do, but that you're just automatically going to be saved because of God's grace, but that is not what the bible says.

To him that does not seek to merit salvation by works of his own, but walks in the law of faith, given by him who justifies the ungodly, his faith leads him to obey the law of faith, and the faith that leads him to do what God commands him, that faith will be recognized to him for righteousness.

It is a faith perfected by obedience. God requires us to do nothing that can possibly claim merit, or for which man could claim favor. There is nothing in believing in God, in repenting toward God, in being baptized out of self into Christ, that would have even the appearance of merit.

Paul was never unwise as to assume any incompatibility between faith and what he called "obedience of faith." For in every act produced by faith in Christ, the believer is really looking to Him.

It is in this only that either faith or obedience of faith has any real worth, as constantly focusing on Jesus.

Faith is an act, something a man does. It is a work... man does the work, but it is God's work. It is ordained by God. Jesus said: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29. So of repentance. "Believe" and "repent" are both active—both done by the person.

 

[Mike]

It is a faith perfected by obedience.

This is at the heart of the matter. I would contend something subtle but very different than you. I would say obedience is perfected by faith, and faith is established by the Lord. Me working at my obedience will produce nothing good. It is Him working within me that accounts for any fruits others see.

2 Corinthians 12
"9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more
gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in
weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

The cross was sufficient, God's Grace is sufficient. No man can work his way to the Lord. There is simply nothing you can do that Christ hasn't done. I believe we'll be rewarded in Heaven according to what we have done, but I don't see where salvation is decided and determined by us.

Romans 3
"21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all
have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came
by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to
demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it
to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

 

[digging]

Born again,

You made the comment that 'faith is an act', please consider that perhaps faith is a spiritual act of the heart trusting God, after which he gives the blessing of his spirit which then produces the ability within the believe to have the strength to repent and reform their lives.

The gift God has given us all is the ability to have faith in the first place.

Digging

PS, so it would seem the one act that might be considered solely our own is choice, choosing to trust, choosing to have the faith he created for us.

 

[Butch5]

There will always be believers stuck in the mud. They believe Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. They cannot accept Christ's words when he announced, "It is finished.". There is something more that needs to be done, and they need to do what the cross was unable to do. For some, this is done by X number of prayers, for others it is a set of rules to follow, such as - no musical instruments in worship. Every day, their salvation is contingent on everything the do and say or don't do and don't say.

I agree completely with Knotical who has been saying all along that good works are a natural response God's Grace by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They are a response to, not a means of, salvation.

Rules and deeds do not regenerate.

Romans 4
"4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

Would that we all believed in the sacrifice on Calvary; that it accomplished everything.

Question: How does dead faith produce works? James said, faith, if it has not works is dead.

Regarding Romans 4. It is critical to keep it in context. In Romans chapter 2 Paul turns his attention to his Jewish readers,

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom 2:17 KJV).

He continues to address them all the way through to chapter 11.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom 11:13 KJV)

While addressing the Jews Paul is arguing that it is by faith that one is justified and not by the works of the Mosaic Law. The reason he talks about wages is because the Jews believed that they would inherit the promises by keeping the Law. God had told them, If you do this, and this, and this, I will bless you. but, if you don't I will curse you. The blessings involved their in living in the promised land. It was a contract just like a job, if you do these things I will let you live in my land. That is how the Jews understood righteousness. It was something to be earned by keeping the commandments that God had given them in order to stay in the land. Paul is arguing that the promises don't come through the Mosaic Law but rather through faith. Therefore it is not of works (of the Mosaic Law) but of faith.

Nowhere in Scripture does Paul ever say good works aren't necessary. As a matter of fact he says the opposite which flatly contradicts Martin Luther's teaching on works. Paul said that God will judge everyone according to their deeds. He said those who continue doing well are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation as Luther claimed, then one could do all the works in the world and it wouldn't be seeking eternal life. The fact that he says those who do good are seeking eternal life shows that they do play a role in salvation.

 

[Butch5]

This is at the heart of the matter. I would contend something subtle but very different than you. I would say obedience is perfected by faith, and faith is established by the Lord. Me working at my obedience will produce nothing good. It is Him working within me that accounts for any fruits others see.

2 Corinthians 12
"9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more
gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in
weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

The cross was sufficient, God's Grace is sufficient. No man can work his way to the Lord. There is simply nothing you can do that Christ hasn't done. I believe we'll be rewarded in Heaven according to what we have done, but I don't see where salvation is decided and determined by us.

Romans 3
"21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all
have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came
by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to
demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it
to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

No one is questioning God's part in the equation, it is man's that is at issue.

 

[Carolyn]

I have never even heard of such a thing among protestants as works being necessary for salvation. IF a person is genuinely saved his faith will produce fruit . But a tree or a vine doesn't work to produce fruit by self effort. It is a naturally occuring product under the right conditions. SO it is with us. NO one can work his way to heaven. Self effort produced self righteousness not salvation.
One of the great herecies of the Catholic church was requiring works. When Luther discovered that we are saved by grace through faith, and that it is a gift of God not of works so no one can boast, that is when he was set free from the bondage of trying to work his way to heaven. Calvin did not impose works as necessary for salvation. A gift of faith is not a work. IT is unmerited by grace.
What horrible bondage you people are in! Read the whole book of Galations, which was written to those who were under bondage of works by keeping the law. The only way I can think of a person "losing their salvation" if that is even possible, it would be by falling from grace and depending on their own righteousness to go to heaven by their works.

 

[Carolyn]

I

But you have not shown any bibical proof that what I posted is wrong. Can you show me one person who became a Christian BEFORE they believed, BEFORE they repented, BEFORE they confessed with the mouth, BEFORE they were water baptized for remission of sins.

I was saved when I believed and repented, but I had not yet confessed publicly, not had I been baptized. These things followed after I had confessed my sins to God, accepted His forgiveness, made restitution and completely read the New Testament. I was a young teenager who had never heard a salvation message, had never heard inspired preaching, but who knew the hymn Jesus Loves Me. I was in a very liberal Christian Church with a legalistic pastor who beat his wife and abused his children by burning them. But they had taken every mention of the Trinity out of their hymnals because they couldn,t find the word in the Bible.

 

[BornAgain]

2 Corinthians 12
"9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more
gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in
weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Context again is important to and who this scripture is addressing to regarding grace. Jesus is speaking to Paul and not us in the scripture you are quoting.

This is Christ's continuing and final answer to Paul's prayer. He has been made to understand that the "thorn" must remain in his flesh, but along with this he has received the assurance of an abiding love and help from the Lord. He can no more ask for the removal of the thorn.

It was the Lord's will that he should submit to it for high spiritual means But it is no longer an unrelieved pain and humiliation. He is supported under it by the grace of Christ which finds in the need and abjectness of men the opportunity of showing in all perfection its own strength.

 

[BornAgain]

Born again,

You made the comment that 'faith is an act', please consider that perhaps faith is a spiritual act of the heart trusting God, after which he gives the blessing of his spirit which then produces the ability within the believe to have the strength to repent and reform their lives.

The gift God has given us all is the ability to have faith in the first place.

Digging

PS, so it would seem the one act that might be considered solely our own is choice, choosing to trust, choosing to have the faith he created for us.

Hi Digging,

Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by believing, those are works/acts. Not works of merit that does not save, but works towards salvation.