Is belief "works"?

[Mike]

Context again is important to and who this scripture is addressing to regarding grace. Jesus is speaking to Paul and not us in the scripture you are quoting.

This is Christ's continuing and final answer to Paul's prayer. He has been made to understand that the "thorn" must remain in his flesh, but along with this he has received the assurance of an abiding love and help from the Lord. He can no more ask for the removal of the thorn.

It was the Lord's will that he should submit to it for high spiritual means But it is no longer an unrelieved pain and humiliation. He is supported under it by the grace of Christ which finds in the need and abjectness of men the opportunity of showing in all perfection its own strength.

BA, you are correct, but my point in using that particular scripture was to emphasize that God's Grace overall is sufficient for whatever weakens us; our sinful nature or a broken body. I swore I would never get in a lengthy conversation about faith vs works, and I'm going to quickly bow out of this one. We have different positions on this issue, but our love for the Lord and His love for us outweighs any theologically disagreement on the catalyst for good works. We agree that a child of God will have them. One day, we will all know the how's and the why's.

You have a beautiful heart for the Lord, BornAgain. :yes

Butch5, no doubt you do as well. I hate to leave you hanging with the questions you posed to me, but this is a long standing issue that won't be resolved here, anyway.

I'm out!

 

[Butch5]

I have never even heard of such a thing among protestants as works being necessary for salvation. IF a person is genuinely saved his faith will produce fruit . But a tree or a vine doesn't work to produce fruit by self effort. It is a naturally occuring product under the right conditions. SO it is with us. NO one can work his way to heaven. Self effort produced self righteousness not salvation.
One of the great herecies of the Catholic church was requiring works. When Luther discovered that we are saved by grace through faith, and that it is a gift of God not of works so no one can boast, that is when he was set free from the bondage of trying to work his way to heaven. Calvin did not impose works as necessary for salvation. A gift of faith is not a work. IT is unmerited by grace.
What horrible bondage you people are in! Read the whole book of Galations, which was written to those who were under bondage of works by keeping the law. The only way I can think of a person "losing their salvation" if that is even possible, it would be by falling from grace and depending on their own righteousness to go to heaven by their works.

Hi Carolyn,

It's not heresy to say that works are a necessary part of salvation. You spoke of reading the book of Galatians, that is a good idea, however, remember it needs to be read in context. What is Paul's argument in that book? He asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by faith or through the works of the Law? Paul's argument is faith versus the Mosaic Law as a means of justification. He's not saying good deeds have no bearing on salvation, he's not even addressing the issue of good deeds. Marin Luther apparently didn't understand the historical issue that Paul was dealing with of ignored it. either way what he taught is directly opposed to what Paul taught. Paul expressly says in Romans 2 that God will judge everyone according to their deeds and that those who continue to od well are seeking eternal life. This is diametrically opposed to what Martin Luther taught. Luther wanted to remove the book of James from his Bible because he didn't like what James had to say about works.

 

[rrowell]

Hi Carolyn,

It's not heresy to say that works are a necessary part of salvation. You spoke of reading the book of Galatians, that is a good idea, however, remember it needs to be read in context. What is Paul's argument in that book? He asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by faith or through the works of the Law? Paul's argument is faith versus the Mosaic Law as a means of justification. He's not saying good deeds have no bearing on salvation, he's not even addressing the issue of good deeds. Marin Luther apparently didn't understand the historical issue that Paul was dealing with of ignored it. either way what he taught is directly opposed to what Paul taught. Paul expressly says in Romans 2 that God will judge everyone according to their deeds and that those who continue to od well are seeking eternal life. This is diametrically opposed to what Martin Luther taught. Luther wanted to remove the book of James from his Bible because he didn't like what James had to say about works.

Bingo...

 

[BornAgain]

Bingo. The Spirit is strong within you.

I read these last two pages and think it is only a mis-communication going on, and that for the most part all are saying the same thing.

Let me try. How I see it, is that obedience comes first. Not obedience to Moses law, Jesus fulfilled that. Obedience of the heart to choose to accept the gift of faith that was given to us. In this way, faith is an act and a work because a choice is made within the man. Faith is dead without works because true faith seeks only God, and any good deeds or works one performs is not an act of man (except choosing to believe and trust/put their faith in God in the first place), but rather God working his works through the man. Man can do no good on his own without God.

In the same way, works without faith is dead because it would not be God working through the man. Man need only have faith in his heart to allow God to work through him. His Grace is sufficient for me. When one denies faith within his heart, this quenches the Spirit of God, and God can not perform his works through the man. When one does have faith within his heart, the Spirit will come and do his works through the man, and produce much fruit. Fruit is demonstrable of ones faith in God, and Gods work through the man. i.e., the light that will shine for all others to see in the man.

So Faith without works is dead because it is NOT the works of man, or anything to do with Moses's Law. It is the Holy Spirits works that is being done through us. Do not be confused that one should obey Moses Law, we are released from the Law. Obedience of the heart is the key here. Obedience to our faith in God. Seek God with all your heart. If you love me you will keep my commandments, of which the greatest is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. When the heart is in this state, ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened.

Just like what happened to me last night, which increased my faith and my love for God. Praise the Lord!

I hope this makes sense to you all.

This also explains how/why a child can understand the scriptures, and we are to come as a child seeking God. Even a child can have faith, and the Holy Spirit takes care of the rest. ;)

Edward,

Yes, you make perfect sense. Maybe there was a little communication going on but you were able to make sense of it! Thank you again for your insight!

 

[BornAgain]

Thanks, but that wasn't me talking! ;)
Boy, the Spirit came upon me as I wrote that and...I know it's the truth. Praise God that he was able to work through me.

Amen! Isn't that a wonderful feeling?

 

[BornAgain]

It sure is! :yes

It seemed as if I was talking to myself as much as you all here on the board! :shocked!

Isn't that the truth!

 

[heymikey80]

So it's not actually a covenant according to Scripture but rather just your opinion, correct?

But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me. Hos 6:6

So no, not his opinion, but according to Scripture.

 

[heymikey80]

Born again,

You made the comment that 'faith is an act', please consider that perhaps faith is a spiritual act of the heart trusting God, after which he gives the blessing of his spirit which then produces the ability within the believe to have the strength to repent and reform their lives.

Just keep in mind -- this spiritual act is not a "work-for-wages" result, as if you could trade even an act like faith for a wage like salvation. One is totally out of proportion to the other.

Faith is essentially a confidence and reliance in God to change you. As an act (yes, it's an act but not a work for wages, cf. Rom 4:4-5) faith does nothing but permit God's foot in the door to the human heart.

But that's plenty.

The warning from Paul is to never consider faith as some kind of quid pro quo with God, any more than any other work. God's work in us is His.

 

[rrowell]

But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me. Hos 6:6

So no, not his opinion, but according to Scripture.

Actually it is Hos 6:7 and not all translations translate the word "Adam" (although I do agree the word is more properly translated "Adam"):

Hosea 6:7 (KJV)
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Hosea 6:7 (ASV)
7 But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

and as Butch5 said in an earlier post, if one is to call this single command a "works covenant" then, well Ill just re quote Butch5:

Butch 5: "Where do we find said covenant in the Scriptures? If you want to say that a single command is a covenant, then the same applies in the New Covenant. Jesus said to His disciples, keep my commands. So, Christians are under a works covenant also using the definition of covenant that you've supplied."

 

[digging]

Yes Edward!

I just love your comment, very spiritual brother.

"Obedience of the heart to choose to accept the gift of faith that was given to us."

I'm seeing this connected to eating and drinking from the trees and water of life.

To accept the gift of faith is to spiritually be feed from Gods table.

Digging

 

[Carolyn]

Just keep in mind -- this spiritual act is not a "work-for-wages" result, as if you could trade even an act like faith for a wage like salvation. One is totally out of proportion to the other.

Faith is essentially a confidence and reliance in God to change you. As an act (yes, it's an act but not a work for wages, cf. Rom 4:4-5) faith does nothing but permit God's foot in the door to the human heart.

But that's plenty.

The warning from Paul is to never consider faith as some kind of quid pro quo with God, any more than any other work. God's work in us is His.

I still can't take credit for any work or gift of God. But I can agree with more of this than most other posts on this thread.
When all is said and done, we will cast our crowns at the feet of Jesus. Most of you seem to think Luther is a heratic and that I also am a heritic.
But I can say that my mom telling me that I still had to be good just put me under the bondage of trying to work my way to heaven. It was a horrible burden and heaviness that I now realize was a lie of the enemy. God set me free from that oppression when I learned that salvation is by faith alone.
So I will not buy that lie again.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I still can't take credit for any work or gift of God. But I can agree with more of this than most other posts on this thread.
When all is said and done, we will cast our crowns at the feet of Jesus. Most of you seem to think Luther is a heratic and that I also am a heritic.
But I can say that my mom telling me that I still had to be good just put me under the bondage of trying to work my way to heaven. It was a horrible burden and heaviness that I now realize was a lie of the enemy. God set me free from that oppression when I learned that salvation is by faith alone.
So I will not buy that lie again.

Salvation is by faith not by faith alone. Faith alone is dead being void of works, so how can a dead faith save? Martin Luther had to add the word 'only' to Rom 3:28 in his translation in order to make it read what he wished it had said: 'faith only'. The word "only" is not in any known Greek manuscripts. If Luther had to change and add to God's word to get it to teach his theology then instead of changing the bible Luther needed to change his theology.

 

[Carolyn]

Slightly off topic but a very significant statement that I think a lot of people may not think much about. Our God is a jealous God and all Glory and Praise belong to him. We like to think that we are smart or good, a natural inclination. But man can do no good and even our wisdom is foolishness to him. So when the Holy Spirit gives us knowledge os performs a good work through us, we should be careful to not take the credit and give it to Him that IS deserving.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. totopic

But this is precisely my point. It is not faith or works, but faith that works. Faith is purely a gift of
God as is repentance) God makes us able both to will and to do His good pleasure. BUt it is all His doing,
Not my self effort. IT is a fruit of saving faith but our salvation is not dependant on works. IT depends on the
Saving faith that God gave to us. WE work out our salvon with fear and trembling lest we start relying on
Our self effort and not on the work of His Spirit within us. THe only way we can walk in the good works that
HE has prepared for us is by yielding to and walking in His Spirit. IT is all about yielding and resting in the
Completed work of the Cross. Saving faith is not just head knowledge. It relies on God.
THank you Edward. I didn't think anyone here got the point. And I think it is central to the topic, not off topic.

 

[gr8grace]

Salvation is by faith not by faith alone. Faith alone is dead being void of works, so how can a dead faith save? Martin Luther had to add the word 'only' to Rom 3:28 in his translation in order to make it read what he wished it had said: 'faith only'. The word "only" is not in any known Greek manuscripts. If Luther had to change and add to God's word to get it to teach his theology then instead of changing the bible Luther needed to change his theology.

James 2:14 Faith alone is dead without the "right" works! what works are you speaking of? the law of moses Works or the law Of Liberty Works(Christ)?

James 2:14 What good is it my brothers,if a man(not a brother,unbeliever) says he has faith, but does not have the works? Can that faith save him? No it can not!

whos the man in this verse? He is not a brother! some one who has the wrong faith!

In James 2:10 James describes this man as a man who has FAITH in the law of Moses, thus He has not done the "works" of the law of liberty.

What are the works that this man has to do? He has to do the works of the Law of liberty(Christ) so He can have a saving faith!

James describes the works in James 1:22 but be doers of the word pertaining to the Law of Liberty(Christ) James 1:25

So what are the works of the law of Liberty(Christ)? a doer of the word in James 1:22

A doer of the word in the Law of liberty does the will of the Father. Matt. 7:21 Is the doer of the word(the right works) The Law of Liberty(Christ)

So this man in James 2:14(who does not have the right faith) must be a doer of the word, James 1:22, this man must do "works" in the Law of Liberty James 1:25 and to have the right "works" he must do the will of the Father pertaining to the Law of Liberty(Christ) Matt. 7:21.

So what is the will of the Father pertaining to the Law of Liberty(Christ)?

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father(Law of Liberty, James 1:25) that EVERYONE who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have ETERNAL life, and I will raise him up on the last days.

My friend this is the only work James is talking about in his whole epistle when it comes to some one with a true saving faith. James is just stamping in stone what Paul preached, Faith alone in Christ alone is the only "work" we can do.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith(Law of Liberty, James 1:25) APART from the works of the law(law of Moses, James 2:10)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Why is belief,considered by some, a "work" before regeneration?

Because the definition of a work is defined by the word ergon the greek word used for works in Eph 2:9

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now to believe is an act, a deed done with the mind, so its a work !

 

[CORE]

It's really simple...How can anybody produce good works without having the Holy Spirit?

He who has a brain, let him think.

 

[Grazer]

It's really simple...How can anybody produce good works without having the Holy Spirit?

He who has a brain, let him think.

Depends on what you mean by good works

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[savedbygrace57]

It's really simple...How can anybody produce good works without having the Holy Spirit?

He who has a brain, let him think.

Thats a good point, so lets see if you are consistent. Is believing on Christ a Work that man does ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

edward

.

The only good work a man can do is to take action within his heart to trust and
have faith in the Lord.

Thats Salvation by works !

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's making a choice to have faith and to live for the Spirit. The closest thing to a good work that any man could ever do on his own.

Its a work still ! Making a choice is something man does, thats a work ! The definition of a work is :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Making a choice is a accomplished by the mind !