Is Calvinism of the Bible?

[beloved57]

First of all Beloved57, we are discussing Roman 9:13, not Malachi

The romans passage is a quote from malachi and furthermore you are promoting a false gospel sir with your none sense..

 

[Drew]

First of all Beloved57, we are discussing Roman 9:13, not Malachi

The romans passage is a quote from malachi and furthermore you are promoting a false gospel sir with your none sense..

I agree that the Romans passage is a quote from Malachi, but if one looks at the Malachi passage in more detail it adds even more evidence to the fact that the Romans 9 passage has nothing whatsoever to do with the election of individuals to salvation or to loss. It is about God's use of nations in history, to effect his plan of redemption. The Malachi passage only strengthens this case. Here is the passage:

"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.

Verse 4 shows that the writer is not speaking about God's treatment of individuals at all - the passage is not about God's relationship Esau as a person - it is about God's sovereign use of the nation of which Esau is the father - the Edomites.

Transposing back into Romans 9, we see that Paul is simply re-telling the covenant history of Israel, and his reference to "hating Esau" indicates that, just like a potter exercizing "sovereign" control over his clay, God is "molding" Israel, not electing individuals. He is saying that just as God has the right to "pass over" Esau and the Edomites as members of the nation of Israel, so it is that He (God) has the right to use national Israel in His redemptive plan.

Even more evidence: Which of the following 2 options makes more sense in relation to the following passage about Pharoah, also from Romans 9?:

I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden

1. Paul's reference to Pharoah is about God's election of Pharoah personally to a fate of ultimate destruction (going to hell);

2. Paul's reference to Pharoah is about God's use of Egypt (or even Pharoah personally for that matter) to effect an historical act of redemption in the purposes of God - the deliverance of the Jews out of their exile in Egypt.

I'll take door number 2, Monty.

 

[beloved57]

handy says:

Yes. Can you tell me even one petal on the TULIP that isn't based upon Scripture?

Let's see:
Total Depravity
Romans 5:12
Mark 4:11-12
Ephesians 2:1-5
Unconditional Election
Romans 9:10-24
Ephesians 1:4-8
Limited Atonement
John 17:9
Matthew 26:28
Ephesians 5:25
John 6:37
Irresistible Grace
John 6:37
John 6:44
Romans 8:14
1 Peter 5:10
Preservation of the Saints
Romans 8:28-39
Philippians 1:16
John 6:39

Hmmmm, can't come up with one that doesn't have Scripture as it's basis. And, this is just a short list of key verses. One can study these themes in-depth and come up with many other passages that speak to these subjects in the same way that Calvinism teaches.

You are right , The bible teaches the tulip in fact christ taught each petal himself to his disciples. And what he taught them He commanded them to teach..

matt 28:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Also the words jesus spoke during His public ministry will judge men in the last day..

jn 12:

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.remeber some of the hard sayings Jesus spoke to the multitudes ?

Jn 6

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

It appears that some of the hard sayings of tulip will be the basis of judgement in the last day, in fact these truthes of tulip are Gospel truthes..

Notice peters response in vs 68 to jesus question in vs 67

Peter and the other disciples knew that those words christ just spoke where not popular with the masses who pretend to follow christ, but they recognized the power and Divine authority of the words..for they had been chosen..The hard sayings of the gospel and the truth of God will not dter true chosen sinners to follow christ and believe..

Remember when christ taught particular redemption ,to a lady , and notice her response:

matt 15:

21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
He told her in essence that he had a particular Limited design...
Instead of complaining and saying thats not fair she bowed in worship..
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

He even called her a name a dog..I am not recommending that though lol 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The women had been given the faith of Gods elect she bowed and worshipped even in light of the particular resticted doctrine and design of christ....

 

[GraceBwithU]

First of all Beloved57, we are discussing Roman 9:13, not Malachi

The romans passage is a quote from malachi and furthermore you are promoting a false gospel sir with your none sense..

Like I said, you can teach hate if you wish. It still doesn't change what is being said in Romans chapter 9.

Your attitude and comments to everyone says it all. You seem to have very much anger in your heart. Sorry you can't take the truth. If you wish to continue a discussion...fine. But if the only way you can answer someone is with rude un-Christian type remarks, I suggest you pray about it and relax before you answer anyone.
:D

 

[GraceBwithU]

Beloved57,
The Pedels of the T.U.L.I.P. are based on scripture that has been distorted and mis-interpreted.
I will explain further in a bit.
:D

 

[beloved57]

GraceBwithU says

Your attitude and comments to everyone says it all. You seem to have very much anger in your heart

And you seem to have much lies and deception in yours lol..

 

[beloved57]

Beloved57,
The Pedels of the T.U.L.I.P. are based on scripture that has been distorted and mis-interpreted.
I will explain further in a bit.
:D

There is absolutely nothing you can explain to me sir, as far as I can tell you are of the devil..Just as paul said to one I say unto you..

acts 13:

8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Beloved57,
The Pedels of the T.U.L.I.P. are based on scripture that has been distorted and mis-interpreted.
I will explain further in a bit.
:D

There is absolutely nothing you can explain to me sir, as far as I can tell you are of the devil..Just as paul said to one I say unto you..

acts 13:

8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

There you go with your anger again...shame on you. God loves you still. Even though you have anger in you heart. You have only been mislead by someone and it has blinded you.

 

[Drew]

There is absolutely nothing you can explain to me sir, as far as I can tell you are of the devil..Just as paul said to one I say unto you..

Ah yes, the familiar refrain of one who has been handed his hat in the actual debate. The case that Romans 9 is not about the election of individuals has been clearly set forth. Perhaps you would care to actually engage that argument rather than simply dismissing your opponents as minions of Satan. Perhaps you can tackle such questions as:

1. Do you deny that in Romans 9 and 10, the entire covenant history of Israel has been summarized, proceeding in proper temporal sequence from Abraham all the way to covenant renewal in chapter 10, verses 6 and following? (This is relevant since it establishes the context for the "potter" account in chapter 9 and the "Esau I hated" account as well).

2. Do you deny that in Romans 9:13, Paul quotes from Malachi, and an analysis of the Malachi text shows that the issue at hand is God's treatment of nations in His redemptive plans, not the "hating" of individuals unto salvation?

Now if your position is correct, you will be able to set us all right on this without having to play the "son of the devil" card. That strategy only makes you look desperate and cornered.

 

[GraceBwithU]

beloved57,

Total Depravity
Romans 5:12

Ro 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For sure speaks of the sinful nature, but does nothing to support the adjective “total†which was most likely added later because D.U.L.I.P. was not a good acronym. (just some humour no offence intended)

While we are in Romans 5:

Ro 5:6-7
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

God only Loves certain people and christ died for only certain people and they are called the elect..

Hum…doesn’t do much to support your previous statement or the L. of T.U.L.I.P :-?

Your verses in Romans supporting the “U†have already been discussed. Calvin’s interpretation distorts the meaning of the entire chapter. Paul is not talking about the election as the T.U.L.I.P. talks about it.

The verses quoted in John do not take in account some very important facts that is necessary to understand before attempting to interpret these verses. An example would be John 17:9

Who is Jesus speaking to? (hint: Jesus is praying)
Who is he talking about? (hint: It is near the end…His disciples are near and he is about to send them out into the world to teach the gospel)

Also for chapter 6 of John you should consider:

•Jesus has just appeared on the scene.
• He has chosen His disciples which are “special purpose electâ€Â. (were predestined for sure)
• He is teaching the gospel to people that have been taught Judaism all of their lives or something else.
• The Holy Ghost has not yet arrived on the scene.
• No one can yet believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus because it hasn’t happened. It is still in the future. Even His disciples didn’t understand some of what He taught them until after His resurrection.
• Jesus does not have a lot of time, His ministry is short.
• When someone believes from here to His death they believe that God sent Him and that Jesus is telling them the gospel. They have no knowledge of what is to happen in the near future.

Close examination of any scripture that has ever been given to support the T.U.L.I.P. if done with the proper hermeneutics soon brings about the truth of the flower. It is a clever acronym and very little more. Full of partial and distorted truths.

God Bless you beloved57...I'm sure you mean well.

 

[beloved57]

beloved57,

Total Depravity
Romans 5:12

Ro 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For sure speaks of the sinful nature, but does nothing to support the adjective “total†which was most likely added later because D.U.L.I.P. was not a good acronym. (just some humour no offence intended)

While we are in Romans 5:

Ro 5:6-7
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

God only Loves certain people and christ died for only certain people and they are called the elect..

Hum…doesn’t do much to support your previous statement or the L. of T.U.L.I.P :-?

Your verses in Romans supporting the “U†have already been discussed. Calvin’s interpretation distorts the meaning of the entire chapter. Paul is not talking about the election as the T.U.L.I.P. talks about it.

The verses quoted in John do not take in account some very important facts that is necessary to understand before attempting to interpret these verses. An example would be John 17:9

Who is Jesus speaking to? (hint: Jesus is praying)
Who is he talking about? (hint: It is near the end…His disciples are near and he is about to send them out into the world to teach the gospel)

Also for chapter 6 of John you should consider:

•Jesus has just appeared on the scene.
• He has chosen His disciples which are “special purpose electâ€Â. (were predestined for sure)
• He is teaching the gospel to people that have been taught Judaism all of their lives or something else.
• The Holy Ghost has not yet arrived on the scene.
• No one can yet believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus because it hasn’t happened. It is still in the future. Even His disciples didn’t understand some of what He taught them until after His resurrection.
• Jesus does not have a lot of time, His ministry is short.
• When someone believes from here to His death they believe that God sent Him and that Jesus is telling them the gospel. They have no knowledge of what is to happen in the near future.

Close examination of any scripture that has ever been given to support the T.U.L.I.P. if done with the proper hermeneutics soon brings about the truth of the flower. It is a clever acronym and very little more. Full of partial and distorted truths.

God Bless you beloved57...I'm sure you mean well.

All you are doing is manifesting your hatred for the truth..thats it , you are a blasphemer sir and unless God gives you repentance you are on your way to the lake of fire...please believe it..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
All you are doing is manifesting your hatred for the truth..thats it , you are a blasphemer sir and unless God gives you repentance you are on your way to the lake of fire...please believe it..

Please explain how he can believe otherwise if your ‘god’ of ‘love’ hasn’t given him the faith to do so.

You are an embarrassment to Calvinists everywhere. Didn’t they teach you that you’re not supposed to air your dirty little secrets in public?

BTW, you don’t have to worry about the lake of fire, do you. You are one of the lucky elect, I assume, though you refuse to come out and say so. Your compassion is underwhelming. Even if what you say were true, which it is not, how loving is it to go around kicking those in the face, who didn't win the 'salvation lottery'? Aren't we supposed to know you by your divine love?

 

[beloved57]

Please explain how he can believe otherwise if your ‘god’ of ‘love’ hasn’t given him the faith to do so.

evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat..

2 thess 2

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat..

2 thess 2

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..

Read it again. Read more than one sentence. Read WHY he sends the delusion. It’s not because he didn’t elect them to salvation.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice that ALL who have pleasure in unrighteousness are going to be damned. That doesn’t mean some are chosen to be saved and the rest damned. Only those who by patient continuance in good works will be saved. You better start reading more than your little Calvinist pep talks made up of one line wonders.

 

[beloved57]

quote by beloved57:
evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat..

2 thess 2

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..

Read it again. Read more than one sentence. Read WHY he sends the delusion. It’s not because he didn’t elect them to salvation.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice that ALL who have pleasure in unrighteousness are going to be damned. That doesn’t mean some are chosen to be saved and the rest damned. Only those who by patient continuance in good works will be saved. You better start reading more than your little Calvinist pep talks made up of one line wonders.

nah you read again you deciever those God chosen for salvation believe the truth as He has ordained..

2 thess 2

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: cp

acts 13:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You are a deciver and anti christ..you are a liar and the truth is not in you.. :lying:

 

[GraceBwithU]

I find it fascinating that two people can have completely differing views, yet can state that the other has no knowledge of what the Bible is saying...... :-?

Good point... :D

 

[GraceBwithU]

handy says:

Yes. Can you tell me even one petal on the TULIP that isn't based upon Scripture?

Let's see:
Total Depravity
Romans 5:12
Mark 4:11-12
Ephesians 2:1-5
Unconditional Election
Romans 9:10-24
Ephesians 1:4-8
Limited Atonement
John 17:9
Matthew 26:28
Ephesians 5:25
John 6:37
Irresistible Grace
John 6:37
John 6:44
Romans 8:14
1 Peter 5:10
Preservation of the Saints
Romans 8:28-39
Philippians 1:16
John 6:39

Hmmmm, can't come up with one that doesn't have Scripture as it's basis. And, this is just a short list of key verses. One can study these themes in-depth and come up with many other passages that speak to these subjects in the same way that Calvinism teaches.

You are right , The bible teaches the tulip in fact christ taught each petal himself to his disciples. And what he taught them He commanded them to teach..

I find it interesting that you would choose to even quote out of context another Calvinist. Handy went on to say:

And here is something to think about. When I was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church of America (which are about as Calvinistic as they come), we did not study John Calvin or his writings or the work of John Knox or even Charles Spurgeon or R. C. Sproul. We studied the BIBLE. When I left the Calvinistic churches, (because I have come to disagree with their interpretations of the above verses) I was surprised by a number of things. Things like adult Sunday School going through books and preprinted study material instead of just doing Chapter Studies and Theme Studies straight out of Scripture. I was also surprised to find that at none of other churches were there weekly Evangelism classes and door-to-door witnessing.

Now, one can disagree with the interpretations that the Calvinists apply to the above verses. After years of study on these key doctrines, I've come to different conclusions on just about every point exept the preservation of the Saints. (Which differs greatly from "Once saved, always saved".)

But, just because there is disagreement doesn't mean that "Calvinism is not Christianity". There is not one denomination, catechism or systematic theology out there that is 100% correct. The Calvinistic churches that I belonged to were filled with the Spirit and full of loving, Godly people who took their Chrisitanity to heart and were committed to seeking after all of God's truth and committed to sharing God's truth with the world.

Handy has a good Christian heart. It shows. Please note the second paragraph. She has made her point lovingly. I may disagree with some of what she says but I can respect her honesty and see the Holy Spirit working through her. Regardless of how it got there.

However when I read your post that are filled with hate speech, rudeness, and insults toward others, I have a difficult time understanding and/or believing what you say.

 

[Orion]

evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat..

2 thess 2

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..

Does anyone else find this mindset, a greater being creating people solely for an everlasting existence of pain and suffering in Hell, . . . all for the pleasure of that greater being, . . . . to be rather evil? Can you REALLY love a god who would be so purposefully horrible to living souls OUTSIDE of their own will? :-? If this [what I quoted above] is Calvinism, then I am certain that I'm not a Calvinist, and even more certain that I want no part of it!! :x

 

[francisdesales]

evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat..

2 thess 2

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..

Does anyone else find this mindset, a greater being creating people solely for an everlasting existence of pain and suffering in Hell, . . . all for the pleasure of that greater being, . . . . to be rather evil? Can you REALLY love a god who would be so purposefully horrible to living souls OUTSIDE of their own will? :-? If this [what I quoted above] is Calvinism, then I am certain that I'm not a Calvinist, and even more certain that I want no part of it!! :x

Calvinists call God a liar and don't even realize it...

For example (one of a number, from my experiences with them)

Calvinists claim: "God creates people to be sent to hell, such as the Pharoah of Moses' day. He purposely creates men that have no chance of going to heaven, because it is God's will."

Meanwhile, God says "I desire that all men be saved".

Calvinists have God at worst a liar, at best, extremely confused. Calvinism is a religion that does not realize the extent of God's love, a love that encompasses ALL men. Sadly, it leads to religious pride and exclusiveness, in my opinion.

Regards

 

[GraceBwithU]

You're making yourself clear enough Biblereader.

The problem is that Calvinists don't teach even half of what you've posted there. I don't know if your relative is 'hyper-Calvinist' or new to Calvinism and simply doesn't understand a lot of the doctrine, or if you aren't understanding what your relative is trying to say about it. All I know is that you've extrapolated Calvinist doctrines to extremes that have nothing to do with what is preached and taught in Calvinist churches or universities.

Any church's doctrine can be brought to the same kind of unBiblical extreme's that you've applied to Calvinism. I've heard it said that those who believe in Free-Will don't believe in the sovereignty of God. I've heard that those who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit don't believe you will go to heaven unless you speak in tongues. (I was told that by a Pentecostal once, that I was going to hell because I didn't speak in tongues.)

This is why I keep bringing up the topic of prejudices. You can easily find the truth of what Calvinism does teach simply by logging onto one of the many web-sites devoted to Calvinistic apologetics.

Look at it this way, I can easily take just a portion of what you just said: " I won't support their claims with scripture, because there
aren't any scriptures to support God purposely sending people to hell. "

and now claim that Biblereader doesn't believe in the Bible and isn't a true Christian because he doesn't believe what Jesus taught about hell.

Ridiculous, I know, but take a step back and maybe you'll see you've applied the same type of questionable 'logic' to your anti-Calvinist assumptions.

I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminianist. I'm a Christian. When I first saw some of the post on these forums by people claiming to be Calvinist, I was immediately turned off by what they were saying and how they were saying it. As time went on I soon realized that most of the people posting on these forums are Hyper-Calvinist. Of course they would not admit it.

Your post are different. I can easily read them without being offended even if I don't always agree.