Is Calvinism of the Bible?

[beloved57]

Meanwhile, God says "I desire that all men be saved".

Thats your lie pal God desires the salvation of the elect..and furthermore what God desires, guess what ?

job 23

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. 14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Salvation is Of the Lord you liar..Whoever He wants saved , he saves them period..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
nah you read again you deciever those God chosen for salvation believe the truth as He has ordained..

2 thess 2

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: cp

acts 13:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You are a deciver and anti christ..you are a liar and the truth is not in you..

God has before the foundation of the world decreed and foreordained that all who believe and follow the way of salvation, taught by his son and the Holy Spirit, would be set apart, because of their belief of the truth, and chosen for salvation, to live forever with him. When God made this decision, he wasn’t thinking of Billy, Sue and Beloved57. He was planning how he would save the ones he wanted to save: the meek, the merciful, the poor, and the righteous followers of goodness and love, without preventing all sinners a chance to repent. He knew there would be those who chose to follow Satan and disobey him if they were given opportunity and free will to do so.

He didn’t know their names, or their faces or which ones of the descendents of his first two humans would be humble, merciful and loving or which ones wouldn’t, or which ones were going to repent. How could he? None of them were even created yet, not even Adam. When God foreordained that those in Christ would be saved, no one was created yet, we were not even a twinkle in his eye. We were possibilities and plans to be created in Adam as DNA series and variations of those genes. It was just God the father talking to himself, playing ‘what if’. Jesus was there as the word of the father, but not as a separate human/God being. God determined that he would send his word as the Christ, and be born as a man to taste death for every man and to provide a counter action for man’s inevitable, eventual sin.

When the Bible talks about these elect people, it is speaking of those, whoever they are, that fit the profile that God foreordained would be placed in Christ. In the same way we came to be part of Adam’s human family, except by a spiritual birth that God would cause to occur when we met the requirements of love that Jesus outlined for us in the gospels.

This plan was only made possible by his death, and proved to be reliable by his resurrection. We know it works because Jesus followed his plan perfectly and he rose from the dead, so as long as the spirit that raised up Jesus dwells in us, that same spirit will raise us from the dead as well. How does this Spirit dwell in us? By love. Got love?

 

[Drew]

Meanwhile, God says "I desire that all men be saved".

Thats your lie pal God desires the salvation of the elect..and furthermore what God desires, guess what ?

job 23

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. 14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Salvation is Of the Lord you liar..Whoever He wants saved , he saves them period..

Beloved:

I suggest that you ease off with the "you lie", "you are of the devil stuff". It really does make you look you desperate and cornered.

Now, let's analyse specific passage, make our cases and leave the name-calling to the politicians, shall we?

You appear to argue that text in 2 Thess 2 supports election of people unto loss. Here is the text in question:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

I think your position is very hard to sustain here. The text, at least on a "plain sense" reading (where do not rob phrases like "refused to love" of their implicit acceptance of the existence of the power of contrary choice), says that indeed God does "delude" certain people. I cannot speak for other non-Calvinists, but I have never denied this. I think that Scripture clearly teaches that God does indeed "harden" people, just like Pharoah was hardened.

But the most reasonable interpretation of this text is that this "delusion" is a consequence of refusing to love the truth, not a cause for that refusal. What is the delusion they are sent? A delusion that causes them to believe the lie of the man of lawlessness - not a delusion that causes them to not accept the forgiving grace of God.

Why are they ultimately condemned? Because they have not "believed the truth" of God's love, which is clearly not what they are sent a delusion about. They are not condemned because they have been deluded to believe the lie of the man of lawlessness. God is merely "hardening" a person who has already freely started to walk down a certain path.

In a later post, I will provide a counterargument to the Calvinist take on 2 Thess 2:13 which certainly seems to support pre-destination. I will argue that this is not the correct reading of the text.

 

[Orion]

Meanwhile, God says "I desire that all men be saved".

Thats your lie pal God desires the salvation of the elect..and furthermore what God desires, guess what ?

job 23

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. 14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Salvation is Of the Lord you liar..Whoever He wants saved , he saves them period..

Quoting in King James doesn't make your position any more valid. Does God create souls FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE to burn for an eternity in Hell??? Answer this and ask yourself if you can love such a god who would do this ON PURPOSE. . . . .and for HIS PLEASURE.

Calvinism seems very evil to me, and not equitable with a God of love of His creation (which everyone would be in that category). Sorry.

 

[Drew]

Does God create souls FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE to burn for an eternity in Hell??? Answer this and ask yourself if you can love such a god who would do this ON PURPOSE. . . . .and for HIS PLEASURE.

Calvinism seems very evil to me, and not equitable with a God of love of His creation (which everyone would be in that category). Sorry.

Hello Orion:

I have sympathy with your position. But a number of us are arguing that the Scriptures don't really put in the position of having to believe this idea in the first place. My experience has been that texts that seem to support the Calvinist position do not really do so when carefully analysed. Romans 9 is the classic example. The case that this material is about the election of Israel, and not individual persons, is so powerful (in my opinion) that I think it is basically beyond dispute. However, one needs to invest a little time to understand the case.

 

[beloved57]

orion

Quoting in King James doesn't make your position any more valid

rabbit trail deal with the word..

Does God create souls FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE to burn for an eternity in Hell???

Yes Yes 2pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Answer this and ask yourself if you can love such a god who would do this ON PURPOSE. . . . .and for HIS PLEASURE.

I love Him and Worship Him and Fear Him..

Calvinism seems very evil to me, and not equitable with a God of love of His creation (which everyone would be in that category). Sorry.

You reject the God who has been revealed in scripture..for one that suites your fancy..

 

[francisdesales]

Does God create souls FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE to burn for an eternity in Hell???

Yes Yes 2pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

...shall utterly persish in THEIR OWN CORRUPTION

not one afflicted upon them by God.

God doesn't make ANYTHING evil. They BECOME corrupt by their own wills. As such, God desires all men to be saved - and some will choose not to be saved and will "utterly perish in their OWN corruption.

Either you follow a very confused "god" or you are misinterpreting the Bible. Scriptures very clearly state that God sent the Christ to die for the sin of the world, not just the self-proclaimed elect.

Regards

 

[beloved57]

Does God create souls FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE to burn for an eternity in Hell???

Yes Yes 2pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

...shall utterly persish in THEIR OWN CORRUPTION

not one afflicted upon them by God.

God doesn't make ANYTHING evil. They BECOME corrupt by their own wills. As such, God desires all men to be saved - and some will choose not to be saved and will "utterly perish in their OWN corruption.

Either you follow a very confused "god" or you are misinterpreting the Bible. Scriptures very clearly state that God sent the Christ to die for the sin of the world, not just the self-proclaimed elect.

Regards

They were made , this is passive voice , God made them to be taken a destroyed , they could not make themselves.. they were born for this purpose..

same as judas it was said of him..

matt 26:

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
He was born to be the one to betray christ , it was envitable he do it , and enevitable he be punished for it the only way he could have prevented it was not to be born, but God controls that..right ?

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
Yes Yes 2pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


They were made , this is passive voice , God made them to be taken a destroyed , they could not make themselves.. they were born for this purpose..

No No. Take off your cal-colored glasses and read it like a normal human being. The verse says these men, because they are as animals, who have become corrupted in their understanding, shall perish like common beasts that are made to be eaten. IOW, they are going to die like dogs because they have left the way of salvation and returned to the vomit of sin. Don’t take my word for it. Read the entire chapter yourself. Especially notice verses 19, 20, 21:

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Just like Calvinism teaches that there is no works to bother with, these carnal Christians taught that there were no works to do to be saved.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

They were not made to be destroyed, they had escaped the corruption of sin and had an understanding of the Lord as their savior but were overcome with lust and greed and returned to their old carnal (natural beast ) habits. Live like an animal, die like one.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Unless they repent, they will perish eternally. What is the holy commandment that was delivered unto them? The commands of Christ. The same commands that you claim we do not have to follow in order to be saved.

quote by beloved57:
same as judas it was said of him..

matt 26:

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
He was born to be the one to betray christ , it was envitable he do it , and enevitable he be punished for it the only way he could have prevented it was not to be born, but God controls that..right ?

Judas was chosen to fulfill the prophesies that were made about a friend who would betray Christ. He was chosen after he exhibited a lust for money and probably done many undiscovered dastardly deeds that had already earned him a death sentence by hanging, if not a place in hell. He didn’t need to be chosen from the beginning of creation. He didn’t need to be chosen at birth. He was simply the best candidate at the time that fit the profile, having already received a death sentence from God but was extended a stay of execution so that he could be used to fulfill the prophesy. He was the man of the hour, chosen when the Lord picked his disciples. The only one who has to choose him from the foundation of the world is a lame, retarded god who can only write scripts for puppet plays.

 

[beloved57]

All you have done is denied what the scripture says..They were born in order to be destroyed, you cant change it...

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
All you have done is denied what the scripture says..They were born in order to be destroyed, you cant change it…

I didn’t change it, you did. Scripture doesn’t say they were born to be destroyed. It says natural brute beasts were made to be destroyed. It says these former believers became like animals in their behavior. What are animals like? They live for food and sex. Survival is basically all they are concerned with. This is how they are like these men. The Bible isn’t saying that these fallen Christians were born just to be eaten or destroyed. They are going to be destroyed for acting like ‘brute beasts.’ Read the text. All of it.

 

[unred typo]

An analogy for you. We love those:

The general took his grandchildren to the playground on the base where he was met by reporters from ‘The Inqueerer’ Magazine. The general commented that these children, like little green frogs, were hopping everywhere. Since some of the children were Hispanic, the reporter asked if the general thought they were illegal immigrants. He replied that they were not and that all of them were children of soldiers nearby.

The paper then ran the ‘true story’ that "Top Military Official admits that an invasion of aliens has already been witnessed on base." The paper ran a picture of bug eyed Martians holding a ray gun. The headline read, “General Admits Green Half-breed Aliens have Invaded US Base!"
He was quoted as saying they were like "little green frogs" but that he had later denied that they were aliens. The story ended with; “Obviously, they are the results of top secret breeding experiments between military personnel and creatures from mars.â€Â
He was quoted directly as saying, “These children, like little green frogs, are …everywhere!â€Â

Meanwhile back at the forum, Calvinists read 2 Peter 2:

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

and come to the startling conclusion:

"They were made , this is passive voice , God made them to be taken and destroyed , they could not make themselves.. they were born for this purpose.."

They establish this ‘fact’ on the reading of many other such verses that back up their allegations such as 2 Thess 2:

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Where they conclude:

"God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..
evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat.."

The question is now put to the readers. Who has the true story and who has fabricated a false report from the facts? Read more. Examine the entire text. Don’t be fooled by a barrage of statements made up from out of context 'sound bites' of Bible.

Hopefully, by this illustration, you can see how a perfectly innocent statement like a true verse from the Bible can be taken in isolation and distorted to support a totally erroneous view. Once an idea has been released, whether it is that aliens have invaded, or that the Bible supports Calvinism, there will be people who are gullible enough to accept it. Verses in isolation may mean nothing at all like what they are being used to prove, but once a person’s mind has been bent and twisted to believe a lie, it is so much harder to get them to see the reality.

 

[beloved57]

An analogy for you. We love those:

The general took his grandchildren to the playground on the base where he was met by reporters from ‘The Inqueerer’ Magazine. The general commented that these children, like little green frogs, were hopping everywhere. Since some of the children were Hispanic, the reporter asked if the general thought they were illegal immigrants. He replied that they were not and that all of them were children of soldiers nearby.

The paper then ran the ‘true story’ that "Top Military Official admits that an invasion of aliens has already been witnessed on base." The paper ran a picture of bug eyed Martians holding a ray gun. The headline read, “General Admits Green Half-breed Aliens have Invaded US Base!"
He was quoted as saying they were like "little green frogs" but that he had later denied that they were aliens. The story ended with; “Obviously, they are the results of top secret breeding experiments between military personnel and creatures from mars.â€Â
He was quoted directly as saying, “These children, like little green frogs, are …everywhere!â€Â

Meanwhile back at the forum, Calvinists read 2 Peter 2:

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

and come to the startling conclusion:

"They were made , this is passive voice , God made them to be taken and destroyed , they could not make themselves.. they were born for this purpose.."

They establish this ‘fact’ on the reading of many other such verses that back up their allegations such as 2 Thess 2:

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Where they conclude:

[quote:4cce2]"God is only a God of Love to His elect , to all others He is A God of vengeance and justice and wrath..
evidently because God is pleased to send him a strong delusion to believe a lie..If he is not a elect then he is a reject and created for the sole purpose of being damned..and you may be in the same boat.."

The question is now put to the readers. Who has the true story and who has fabricated a false report from the facts? Read more. Examine the entire text. Don’t be fooled by a barrage of statements made up from out of context 'sound bites' of Bible.

Hopefully, by this illustration, you can see how a perfectly innocent statement like a true verse from the Bible can be taken in isolation and distorted to support a totally erroneous view. Once an idea has been released, whether it is that aliens have invaded, or that the Bible supports Calvinism, there will be people who are gullible enough to accept it. Verses in isolation may mean nothing at all like what they are being used to prove, but once a person’s mind has been bent and twisted to believe a lie, it is so much harder to get them to see the reality.[/quote:4cce2]

They were made meaning born to be taken and destroyed , like brute beast, God does not Love them His only purpose forgiving them life was to cast them in the lake of fire forever and punish them for the sins that God Himself ordained that they committ..

2 pet 2:

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

they were ordained to this condemnation, meaning that it was written or designated in the eternal counsels of God before time..

It was their purpose for coming in the world why God decreed that they should be born..

The same connotation that of being written is found in ps 139

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Thats what Jude is saying...written before time , designated for a purpose in the eternal counsels of God...

People dont want to hear this about God instead create their own lollipop god that just loves everybody in the world..But The Great I AM does not Love those He created , caused to be born in order that He will destroy them forever.. notice judes summation of those ordained to condemnation..

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

reserved for them as it was reserved for their father..Matt 25:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

May God have mercy on His elect on this board if not you will burn forever..

 

[francisdesales]

Meanwhile, God says "I desire that all men be saved".

Thats your lie pal God desires the salvation of the elect..and furthermore what God desires, guess what ?

My lie? Perhaps you should stop making such accusations.

Perhaps you should read the entire Scriptures, rather than the cut and paste job you obviously must achieve to make that house of cards remain erect...

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men, for kings, and [for] all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and integrity. For this [is] good and pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:1-4

Two things are being said by the Bible -

First, Paul tells Christians to pray for ALL men. Not just Calvinists who think they are among the elect. You see, Christians are not as exclusive as you would have others believe. God has offered His redemption to ALL men.

And secondly, it says that God desires ALL men to be saved... EVERYONE!

As I said before, Calvinists think that either God is confused, a liar, or they just haven't read the Scriptures very well. Your little accusations merely proves your walk in Christ.

Regards

 

[Orion]

I'm beginning to thing that beloved57 is a spammer. He is preaching a gospel of hate, and a hate that comes right from God. I'm not sure who his god is, but any god who "does not Love them, his only purpose for giving them life was to cast them in the lake of fire forever and punish them for the sins that god himself ordained that they committ.", is one evil being.

beloved57, . . . . you wouldn't happen to go to a church with a pastor named Fred Phelps, would you? :-?

 

[beloved57]

beloved57, . . . . you wouldn't happen to go to a church with a pastor named Fred Phelps, would you?

Nope..

I'm beginning to thing that beloved57 is a spammer. He is preaching a gospel of hate, and a hate that comes right from God.

to be true to all the counsel of God you must preach hate as paul did..

rom 9:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

david ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Notice thou hatest the workers !! the persons..

For you close your eyes to the word shows that you are in a fantasy land lol..

 

[beloved57]

My lie? Perhaps you should stop making such accusations.

Perhaps you should read the entire Scriptures, rather than the cut and paste job you obviously must achieve to make that house of cards remain erect...

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men, for kings, and [for] all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and integrity. For this [is] good and pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:1-4

Yes your lie , because you dont understand the truth what God deires He does pal

Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
They were made meaning born to be taken and destroyed , like brute beast, God does not Love them His only purpose forgiving them life was to cast them in the lake of fire forever and punish them for the sins that God Himself ordained that they committ..

2 pet 2:

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will repeat my answer since you aren’t apparently thinking about this clearly;
Scripture doesn’t say they were born to be destroyed. It says natural brute beasts were made to be destroyed. It says these former believers became like animals in their behavior. What are animals like? They live for food and sex. Survival is basically all they are concerned with. This is how they are like these men. The Bible isn’t saying that these fallen Christians were born just to be eaten or destroyed. They are going to be destroyed for acting like ‘brute beasts.’ Read the text. All of it.

quote by beloved57:
they were ordained to this condemnation, meaning that it was written or designated in the eternal counsels of God before time..

It was their purpose for coming in the world why God decreed that they should be born..

You’re reading that into the text. All those who deny the Lord and refuse to repent are ordained to be condemned. You become one of them by your actions, if you choose not to repent. It was ordained that those who do this would be condemned. God ordained the rules or counsel for why anyone would be condemned. These rules are “of old.â€Â
Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Notice that EVERY transgression and disobedience receives punishment. God doesn’t choose out some pets that he lets get away with murder. Even his people who he had chosen to be witnesses to the world, were punished severely when they fell into apostasy and as a nation became evil.

quote by beloved57:
The same connotation that of being written is found in ps 139

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Yes, it says that God can see a person from the moment of conception, and he can read your DNA sequences for the plans of your body parts before they even begin to form in the womb. God knows our substance, what we will be made from and how we will form in the womb by our DNA. That in no way proves your point.

quote by beloved57:
Thats what Jude is saying...written before time , designated for a purpose in the eternal counsels of God...
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,

God wrote the rules “of oldâ€Â. 2 Peter 2 says that “9The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.â€Â
Jude is telling us that those who do such things will be punished according to the counsel of God from way back when he judged the world of Noah and the men of Sodom. None of these verses are saying what you imagine. You have brought your warped alien view into the text.

quote by beloved57:
People dont want to hear this about God instead create their own lollipop god that just loves everybody in the world..But The Great I AM does not Love those He created , caused to be born in order that He will destroy them forever.. notice judes summation of those ordained to condemnation..

God is not a lollipop god. He will judge evil, without partiality. The truth that you refuse to accept is that the Bible presents God as being fair and one who judges each person according to their ways. He doesn’t want to punish anyone but he will not turn a blind eye to their sin, unless they willingly confess and repent of it.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?

quote by beloved57:
13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

reserved for them as it was reserved for their father..Matt 25:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You said it. The fire was created for the devil and his angels, not for man. The fires are reserved for all who are ungodly, who choose to follow Satan, including all those who rejected God in Old testament days up to the end times. It is not that God planned to create men who would be condemned from before they were created! Get real, man. You’re way off base here. You’ve made up a whole other ’gospel’ that isn’t even good news at all. The good news is there is mercy with the Lord and if you repent, he has made a way of salvation for all who choose to follow Christ and reject Satan. The bad news is if you choose evil and ungodliness, God will execute judgment upon you just as he has foretold to us as recorded in Jude:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

quote by beloved57:
May God have mercy on His elect on this board if not you will burn forever..

Why don’t you say that the way the Bible says it?
The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished, so repent or you, too, will be punished in hell’s fires. God has mercy of those who are faithful to his word.

Psalm 25:10
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psalm 62:12
Also unto you, O Lord, belongs mercy: for you render to every man according to his work.

Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Proverbs 28:13 reminds me of David, after he sinned with Bathsheba:

He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

Notice what David said:
2 Samuel 22:25-27
24 I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from my iniquity.

(You see, he didn’t say he was sinless, but that he repented of his sin and BECAUSE he walked in the ways of God, God showed him mercy: )

25Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.
26With the merciful you will show yourself merciful, and with the upright man you will show yourself upright.
27With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the perverse you will show yourself offensive.

I’m sorry to bust your little bubble where you are the Lord’s elect little pet chosen from the world of sinners that will be spared hell, but you are in the same boat as all of us. Repent or die eternally. The choice is yours to make and you better not waste any time making it. You haven’t shown much mercy to the lost, so not much mercy will be shown to you. :o Be varrrry afraid...

 

[beloved57]

will repeat my answer since you aren’t apparently thinking about this clearly;
Scripture doesn’t say they were born to be destroyed. It says natural brute beasts were made to be destroyed

Yes it does

2 pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

But these , these who ? These false teachers? What about them ? as beast were made, that is just like beast are for the purose of destroying, these men were made that way as well , they were born as beast are born to be taken and destroyed..You handle the word decietfully and call yourself a godly man, please you are a joke sir..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
[quote:4d9eb]( unred )will repeat my answer since you aren’t apparently thinking about this clearly;
Scripture doesn’t say they were born to be destroyed. It says natural brute beasts were made to be destroyed

Yes it does

2 pet 2

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

But these , these who ? These false teachers? What about them ? as beast were made, that is just like beast are for the purose of destroying, these men were made that way as well , they were born as beast are born to be taken and destroyed..You handle the word decietfully and call yourself a godly man, please you are a joke sir..[/quote:4d9eb]

L I S T E N C A R E F U L L Y. They became like beasts by living like beasts. They will be destroyed like beasts who are only made to be eaten because they live like beasts who only live to be destroyed. Do you know how cattle raised to be eaten live their lives? They eat and sleep and mate and they have no concerns but satisfying their own needs, until the day they die. They are unlike a horse or a dog who seeks to please his master.

Read the chapter without your Cal-colored glasses on. These men were not made to be destroyed. They were believers and followers of Christ at some point before they became spoiled by philosophy and vain deceit or some Calvinist doctrines perhaps. They began “turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.†They “ speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.†IOW, they became ungodly, SELF INDULGENT, LIKE BEASTS, (caps for emphasis, vic ) after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

The judgment against the ungodly was made way back when Cain killed Abel. It has been taught and prophesied ever since. The good news is that you don’t HAVE to be ungodly. You can change through the power of Christ. You must change or like beasts, who were made to be destroyed, you too, will be destroyed.

:o