Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?

[grumix8]

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God determines what is just and unjust, not you.

Just and unjust are concepts that He doesn’t define as such. But they are concepts He deeply and completely understands.

Everyone get justice, not everyone gets mercy.

Not everyone asks for mercy.

God is interested in His glory and pleasure.

Not mainly. When He gave us his main interests that isn’t among them. His main interests are that we do justly (to others), love mercy (towards others), and walk humbly with him. Worshipping Him doesn’t even make the top two.

God ensures that God meets His own expectations as their is no higher being to be glorified .... man's function is to glorify God.

No, man’s main function is described in Micah 6:8. God doesn’t need to ensure God doesn’t disappoint God.

You see impartially incorrectly. You see it from man's point of view. There is NOTHING in man that makes him worthy of God's favor.

Noah had something that found favor.

There is none the is good, no not one.
Two billion people have never heard of Christ and are doomed to hell.

That information we are not given.

By your definition of God and partially, God is partial and therefore unjust per the empirical evidence.

What’s the empirical evidence? God has no partiality at all.

The way you define partiality, this is true. Since 2 billion are not given a chance to be saved God is partial and unjust by your definitions.

How do you know they are not given a chance?

 

[electedbyhim]

No electedbyhim you did not understand Know that your readin this from another time when I was disccusing it and do not understand it please read it or better yet here tlaking to you in P.M. to show you the information.

Thank you for you p.m. and the link to the information.

Again I do no t agree that the Bible teaches what your saying about free will. I do believe that humans have free will to sin. If the unregenerated man is a slave to sin, then his choices and decisions are also influenced by sin. That means that the entire being of the human is permeated by sin. The thoughts, emotions and so forth are controlled by sin. My point is that if the unregenerated does anything deemed "good", that act or decision is influenced by pride (sin), it cannot be influenced by Biblical love.

On the other hand, the regenerates decisions and choices are motivated by the Holy Spirit that indwells in them. They are a slave to righteousness. When a believer is living by the flesh, his choices are influenced by sin in their lives.

I understand many will not agree with this, but you are either a slave of Christ or a slave to sin, either way your will is not free.


Grace and peace to you

 

[grumix8]

This the thing don't be the slave anymore your a slave before Jesus met you and you met him but he wants you as friend

John 15:15
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you.

You understand your A slave for you know whta is he's purpose he saved you and thy 2 commandments, Put things in God's hands i'm not teaching were all in discusion and were talking about freewill in the bible.

 

[grumix8]

God's will and purpose for man is to do the plan of God and his will to do the commandments written in our heart. Because he's plan was already in our hearts but we forget and our hearts turn into stone and to make them flesh we must love again to undo that error I reccomend you find the truth because you do not know that will of God ! The plan of God ! And above all the secret of the heart of God because it is written in the bible he secret in our ehart and once you understand how that is with love and thy 2 commandments you will know that secret that is meant for you that here they still do not understand !

 

[grumix8]

No, electedbyhim to have A heart of A child is how to make our hearts from stone into flesh again and put your hands in his hands in the storm because the storm changes in life promblems in surgery, divorce, fmaily death and in covid and all had their tests. God wants you to be his witness do not participate in the world and seperate yourself be his witness so the devil accuses in the times he will say " they were faithful to me all the way from the promblems and didn't stop being faithful to me " So the world can see you hold his hand and didn't let go and the galaxy sees it so also the whole universe can do it too and unbelievers do it too.


Put all that in your will and you have freewill to do and his will in impregnated in your will and you become one with his and you are his servant and stop being his servant and become his son and daughter.

 

[grumix8]

This the way of the heart

See how he says the heart of the law.Know that there are more secrets to it because he says the heart of God and were are model like his heart and to be the fullest of the heart people
This are the verses that explain we see the since the beggining the heart and the laws.

Jesus came to earth without power and showed the world how God wanted man to be like him and took his powers the son and jesus did one thing to show how God wanted man to be before the fall ! by praying and puttings things in God's hands and saying your will be done on earth as in heaven ;-; ! Their is more to this than meets the eye it why he wants us to do ephesians about psalm and songs and perhaps you do not understadn Ellis those secrets because you need to know what he said and to who he said and what way because people have mistake and take things in general but he's message sin't to gentiles and Jews but some messages directed to jew and later gentiles.

the second the path of the heart of stone to heart of flesh

the third the love we must have john 15:13 and john 3:16

the fourth put your hands in God hands

the fifth have A heart of A child

and to do his will give thanks always in bad times and in good times and do good even in pressure. To sing to god and worship him like ephesians say with psalms and songs with your love one's.

 

[electedbyhim]

No, electedbuhim to have A heart of A child is how to make our hearts from stone into flesh again and put your hands in his hands in the storm because the storm changes in life promblems in surgery, divorce, fmaily death and in covid and all had their tests. God wants you to be his witness do not participate in the world and seperate yourself be his witness so the devil accuses in the times he will say " they were faithful to me all the way from the promblems and didn't stop being faithful to me " So the world can see you hold his hand and didn't let go and the galaxy sees it so also the whole universe can do it too and unbelievers do it too.


Put all that in your will and you have freewill to do and his will in impregnated in your will and you become one with his and you are his servant and stop being his servant and become his son and daughter.

Thank you for your opinion. I do not agree with you on free will.

Many will tell you I am a heretical Calvinist (sarcasm) or is it and that is why I do not believe humans have a free will.

As for being a slave to Christ, you would do well to do a word study on slave (doulos). This word describes our relationship to Christ.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grumix8]

People this is the question if in the garden Adam was given freewill ? He had it yes. The devil had it before him ? Yes. That is the case God gave man choice and told him the tree in the garden not to eat of it of the tree of good and evil he gave him A choice he let him decide right or left and Adam went the wrong way !

How would it be if there in the garden was no tree ! That way it would of not happen but God gave Adam the choice to not be wrong or correct ! And gave him freedom of choice his destiny was chosen. How would it be if no Tree ? Would the tree be picked off and removed once time passed ? Would humans have another destiny ? Becuase of that we have choice and not make the mistake of the devil and let god decide in our life's and in his way.

Because Jesus is the reason we are saved from that error we cna now dedide and put it in God's hands and trust in him !

 

[electedbyhim]

People this is the question if in the garden Adam was given freewill ? He had it yes. The devil had it before him ? Yes. That is the case God gave man choice and told him the tree in the garden not to eat of it of the tree of good and evil he gave him A choice he let him decide right or left and Adam went the wrong way !

How would it be if there in the garden was no tree ! That way it would of not happen but God gave Adam the choice to not be wrong or correct ! And gave him freedom of choice his destiny was chosen. How would it be if no Tree ? Would the tree be picked off and removed once time passed ? Would humans have another destiny ? Becuase of that we have choice and not make the mistake of the devil and let god decide in our life's and in his way.

Because Jesus is the reason we are saved from that error we cna now dedide and put it in God's hands and trust in him !

That is the case God gave man choice and told him the tree in the garden not to eat of it of the tree of good and evil he gave him A choice he let him decide right or left and Adam went the wrong way !

What was the sin that influenced the fall, the decision that Eve made?

Sin influenced that choice. Until one is regenerated the only free will they have is to sin.

Slave to sin.

Scripture separates humanity into two groups: those in Adam and those in Christ. Before grace is given, everyone who has ever lived (except Jesus) is in Adam and thus is in bondage to sin and death. Without salvation in Christ, we will remain in this state, condemned to a second and eternal death. But if we know Christ and have been justified, we are not subject to this condemnation; we are new creatures and have a hope that is sure, eternal life.

 

[grumix8]

Point of view of science yes it is an illusion but God can give us the power to decide.

I think that the reason we will be held morally responsible for unbelief is rooted in what is written in John 3:18-21. Jhn 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 3:19, And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jhn 3:20, For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Jhn 3:21, But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[grumix8]

Given a choice to either believe or not believe, one might choose not to believe because his deeds are evil and he does not want them to be exposed to the light. Or, one might choose to believe because he does the truth and he wants his deeds to be manifest that they have been wrought in God. The fact that there are reasons behind belief or unbelief does not negate moral responsibility; because those very reasons have the morality of the individual at their base. So, understanding that I may not have free will because those reasons are predetermined does not negate moral responsibility. I choose to believe or not believe based on reasons that have their basis in morality.

 

[Vaccine]

Given:

1. Given: there are 2 billion people who have never heard of Christ per google
2. Given: "So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ." (Romans 10:17) AMP

Conclusion: The ability of man is to choose Christ for 2 billion people has been rendered impossible. God, being all powerful and not willing that any should perish has not afforded these people any possibility of salvation. Agape love is a volition to favor. Two billion people are not favored (loved by God) to the degree that they may become sons of God.

I find this whole thread fascinating. I can't say I ever gave much thought about defining free will but this thread made me think about it.

But your given scenario raises a question.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Am I correct in assuming the 2 billion people who have never heard of Christ are without excuse? That they do have the possibility to choose?

This is anecdotal, but there is also the story of Akiane Kramarik.

 

[Vaccine]

Premise 1: God creates all things
Premise 2: God controls all circumstances (either actively or passively)
Premise 2: God knows all things and therefore knows what all created things will do in any circumstance.
Conclusion: God is in complete control.

God gets everything he wants because:

1. He can't create something He doesn't know what it will do (all knowing) and
2. God wouldn't create something contrary to his will as that would contradict His being all-wise.

Aside: The thread doesn't define "free will", so people will be answering based on their varying, internal concepts of what "free will" means to them.

When you say God controls all circumstances (either actively or passively), how is it possible to passively control something?
Passive: accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It is not all one or the other .
It is both.
Free to choose , but not free not to choose.

 

[Fastfredy0]

When you say God controls all circumstances (either actively or passively), how is it possible to passively control something?

I agree with you. I don't see a way to passively control things. This is a term use by compatibilists who try to distance God from sin which is to say they don't want to say God is the Author of Sin.
I personally think God actively controls all things. The sin aspect makes the subject difficult and complicated. Many, in the final analysis take cover behind the statement: "It's a mystery".

 

[Fastfredy0]

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Am I correct in assuming the 2 billion people who have never heard of Christ are without excuse? That they do have the possibility to choose?

This is anecdotal, but there is also the story of Akiane Kramarik.

I believe you are correct (or maybe we are both wrong..). Romans 1 says all people are without excuse. Therefore, all are condemned the God might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].
In regards to the 2 billion that currently not heard of Christ (you can goggle "how many have never heard of Christ" to get estimates) .... they are without hope unless that at a minimum hear the gospel for the precursor of salvation is faith and the precursor of faith is "Romans 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
This undeniable fact causes one to conclude that Christ did not did for all (or He died in vain for a majority of people.
Aside1: Gentiles before Christ excepting proselytes were condemned too .. .Ephesians 2:12, Amos 3:2
Aside2: there are people on this site that claim these people can be saved without Christ but that is to preach another gospel. This contradicts many verses like John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Conclusion: A significant number (maybe greater than half since Christ and a lot bigger percent before Christ could not possibly exercise the ability to choose God to save themselves (some call it Free Will decision though few will define it)
Aside 3: The bible says God chose who He will save. John 1:12-13 ... there are some verses that are ambiguous on the other side like 1 John 2:2

Re: Akiane Kramari ... don't know of her. Google her ... something about seeing a vision of Christ ... not sure about relevant association to this topic.

 

[electedbyhim]

I agree with you. I don't see a way to passively control things. This is a term use by compatibilists who try to distance God from sin which is to say they don't want to say God is the Author of Sin.
I personally think God actively controls all things. The sin aspect makes the subject difficult and complicated. Many, in the final analysis take cover behind the statement: "It's a mystery".

I tend to agree. I have heard it put that God orchestrates things. Control or orchestrate, I believe He is active in all things.
When it comes to sin, the Bible says He is not the author of it and He hates it. The Lord is holy. I do understand that He controls it and allows it for His glory and our purpose. We are flawed humans and our not on His level in anyway. For me to think I could know all His ways about everything He is and does would be foolish.

When it comes to the sin aspect I will claim Deuteronomy 29:29. I just do not believe we can truly know.

 

[Vaccine]

I believe you are correct (or maybe we are both wrong..). Romans 1 says all people are without excuse. Therefore, all are condemned the God might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].
In regards to the 2 billion that currently not heard of Christ (you can goggle "how many have never heard of Christ" to get estimates) .... they are without hope unless that at a minimum hear the gospel for the precursor of salvation is faith and the precursor of faith is "Romans 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
This undeniable fact causes one to conclude that Christ did not did for all (or He died in vain for a majority of people.
Aside1: Gentiles before Christ excepting proselytes were condemned too .. .Ephesians 2:12, Amos 3:2
Aside2: there are people on this site that claim these people can be saved without Christ but that is to preach another gospel. This contradicts many verses like John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Conclusion: A significant number (maybe greater than half since Christ and a lot bigger percent before Christ could not possibly exercise the ability to choose God to save themselves (some call it Free Will decision though few will define it)
Aside 3: The bible says God chose who He will save. John 1:12-13 ... there are some verses that are ambiguous on the other side like 1 John 2:2

Re: Akiane Kramari ... don't know of her. Google her ... something about seeing a vision of Christ ... not sure about relevant association to this topic.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the conclusion. It seems to me not having heard of Jesus and free will are not mutually exclusive.
I agree there is no path to salvation aside from faith in Jesus.
Is it possible God knows, given the choice, 2 billion people will still reject Jesus regardless if they have heard of him?
That God knows their choice therefore isn't denying their free will, rather expediting their judgement?

Akiane Kramari illustrates this. She was raised by atheists, homeschooled, no TV, and by all accounts had never heard of Jesus. Yet, somehow got to know Jesus.
If more of those 2 billion people were willing to accept Jesus, there would be more stories like hers.

Also, does this work as a definition of free will:
Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the conclusion. It seems to me not having heard of Jesus and free will are not mutually exclusive.
I agree there is no path to salvation aside from faith in Jesus.
Is it possible God knows, given the choice, 2 billion people will still reject Jesus regardless if they have heard of him?
That God knows their choice therefore isn't denying their free will, rather expediting their judgement?

Well, that's an interesting theory. What evidence do you have to support it?

Your definition of FREE WILL states "Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded". Obviously, these people's decision has been denied and clearly they do not have FREE WILL. This was my point that it is impossible for everyone to have Free Will. They were not free to decide as the decision was never presented to them.

But, for the fun of it let's suppose your unsubstantiated theory is true ... that God does not give those who will never hear of Christ the ability to exercise "Free Will" because he knows they will reject Him anyways ...
As I don't have information regarding how these people are distributed I will go to my second example which states all people's of the world excluding Jews and a couple are proselytes were condemned also .. . Proof texts being Ephesians 2:12, Amos 3:2 (talking of time from Jacob (Israel) till Christ)

It is beyond reason to not realize that not being associated with Israel ALWAYS results in a decision that leads to hell. The evidence is overwhelming that something to due with Israel is a cause of salvation and therefore "free will" is not free as and outside influence is a determinant, that influence is being born Jewish.

Also, does this work as a definition of free will:
Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

Unimpeded by what? Unimpeded by God or any other external influence?

Aside: Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.