Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?

[GodsGrace]

Not surprising. The English Calvinists brutally suppressed any Christian group that did not comply with their theology. In some ways they were as bad as the RCC in its persecution of dissenters, especially during Oliver Cromwell's time. It all has to do with power and control.

The OP's question was if freewill is Biblical or an invention of man?
I explored the different ways that freewill is considered.
Pelagian - total freewill and personal responsibility.
Arminian - (semi-Pelagian) A mixture of God's sovereignty and personal freewill
Calvinist - God's total sovereignty and no initial freewill.

All three can provide "proof texts" to support their positions. So determining which position is "Biblical" depends on which Scriptures are included and which are ignored. To say that freewill is an invention of man is too much of a generalized statement, and no one would be able to settle on a definitive position on that.

It is of no use accusing anyone's position of lying, because all three, as I have said, can produce Scriptures to show they are being consistent with the Bible.

What is shows me is that the balance between God's sovereignty and man's free will is a mystery. It comes under the "chicken and egg" question - which came first? Man's free will, or God's sovereign action? I think people will argue it until the end of time.

Makes good fodder for these forums though!2

Hi PC....
It makes good fodder....right.


BUT,,,,when we have an issue such as free will,,,wouldn't you say that it's a good idea to go back to the Early Church Father's and read what They believed? The Early theologians believed in free will and the responsibility of man in his salvation - with the help of the Holy Spirit. Pelagianism was a heretical belief. And by early fathers, I mean before 325 AD, the Council of Nicea.

Wouldn't you agree that there was no issue with free will until the 1500's and this due to some beliefs of Augustine from about 400 AD?

Also, Augustine absolutely did not believe in double predestination --- HOW, I cannot fathom.
But he did state that God will choose who is to be saved, but those lost are lost because of their own choosing.
(or words to that effect).

The following is from Brandon Peterson:

how is the barrier of sin broken and the gap bridged; who is active in traversing it? One of the formative teachers in the Christian tradition made it his life’s ambition to answer these questions, along with innumerable others. Saint Augustine, the great philosopher, theologian, and bishop of Hippo, is remembered as an authority concerning these two issues. Relatively early in his life, he approached the problem of evil from a Neo-Platonist perspective, famously asserting that evil is truly a lack of goodness and is a reality not on account of God, but on account of human free will. Later in his life, Augustine addressed the issue of reunification of God and mankind in the midst of the heated Pelagian controversy. While his opponents claimed that the very free will which Augustine earlier championed was the efficient lynchpin of our salvation, Augustine firmly declared that God’s grace was salvation’s source and eventually began to use the term “predestination” to describe the deliverance of man from his plight. While Augustine is acknowledged as a Church Doctor and one of the most respectable and influential thinkers to have ever written, it is difficult to comprehend how any intellectual could argue so fervently for concepts as dissimilar as free will and predestination. The two, it seems, are mutually exclusive. If a person is predestined, his free choice appears to be rendered rather illusory, or at best, trivial

Augustine: Advocate of Free Will, Defender of Predestination Brandon Peterson




Calvin, OTOH, did believe in double predestination and stated so.


By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin
Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5:


Comment?

 

[Fastfredy0]

All three can provide "proof texts" to support their positions. So determining which position is "Biblical" depends on which Scriptures are included and which are ignored. To say that freewill is an invention of man is too much of a generalized statement, and no one would be able to settle on a definitive position on that.

It is of no use accusing anyone's position of lying, because all three, as I have said, can produce Scriptures to show they are being consistent with the Bible.

What is shows me is that the balance between God's sovereignty and man's free will is a mystery. It comes under the "chicken and egg" question - which came first? Man's free will, or God's sovereign action? I think people will argue it until the end of time

A good piece. It lacks a critical component. What is your opinion of the definition of FREEWILL for each of the 3 groups. AGAIN I ask you to give me the offical definition of the Arminian group in particular. (Probably 'official' is not the correct term ...i am suspicious there is no offical definition and that is vital to their defence, but maybe I will be enlightened. Please give me the source of the Arminian definition. TY. )

Makes good fodder for these forums though!

Definitely. If we all agreed it would be boring.

 

[grumix8]

This is the point only God who is creator of good and evil of light and darkness is who moves it all, we were never meant to understand. What would of happen if he would of not put the tree of good and evil and would of never enter this world. We would of being like children still with our envelope of innocence and be in front ogf God protected by him ?

Yes, our purpose was not good or evil and by human fault we felled. If the tree was not their we would of fallen one will ask ? Nope, everything has plan and God never wanted man in this position what was the purpose of the tree afterwards ? if he would never eaten of it would of other animals eat of it and not man ? or later remove as time passed ? We will never know ? What was really the purpose just as A test of not to be eatena nd alter remove by God ?
But still we know God said that man was like him and the angels that knoweth good and evil ! And still we realize the devil had freewill before us and he fell ! But we know that in our error of Adam we can decide not like the devil but do good in the mistake and rely on God's effort and not our owns and put things in God's hands. Our destiny can change and move but some of you question we cannot escape him or his destiny he saved for us. The question do you want the destiny he did not prepare and leave us in possibility of A million to one what will happen and man just be thrown in space and let him decide ? What will be the outcome if you can plan everyhing since your born from A baby and turn into an adult that instance and God gave you all the power of the future and destiny you wanted ? you will know what you know and you will make A decision better ?


No, this why it is better that inside this world we live we can live in many possibilities and be saved by grace and baptized from sin into salvation and put love into salvation ! We would not of found our destiny if we could decide our destiny in that moment from baby to adult in space. He put us in Eden to be protected and choose not to eat the tree of good and evil and let use have choice ! If we didn't eat we will be perfect and without sin ! But we felled and he gave As econd chance in Jesus and glad that even those scientist believe if they ahd possiblity to ebf ree into choosing thier future our possiblities from predestination would make thier sum of equations and free from God soveriegn and have freewill ?

 

[grumix8]

You have freewill protected and relying in God's effort and his soveriegn that you are not in space making decision but here in the world where in his care of law of moses and law of genesis. They would not of eating the fruti they will live in the probabilities in those rules and soveriegn of G-d's law and love. Be under his guidance and be saved. Knowing we can change those probablities and change our destiny from being A shoe salesman and into lawyer or governor of A state and reach our max and be what we want !

 

[grumix8]

Moses change those probabilities and also Huldah in her prophecy, G-d could reverse those action make us forget it and then done but he let those error stay and destiny was changed seeing he does not make it all effect in a sense of our errors do not ruin our future and in error the Eden will return and heaven on earth and we will be saved despite our errors in Jesus. God could of just erase us and no one will know of our exsitence and done but he lets us know and see those error have existed and predestiantion can change and destiny and sum of those variables and one million in one probablities can change and anything is possible. Let us do good and make knowing of good and evil in God's favor and find our purpose in life and pray to him.

 

[grumix8]

See he made probablities and the sense some people say that one can make decision and really can't change thier future or predestiantion just fear and laziness that future can change and just like Moses and Huldah made mistake know we can make success into our favor and do good and chaneg our future with him and play ahrd abll i life and into all the promblems life does go thru and breakthru it all and not passive christian that rolls over and breaks the mold life give and make good in life and saves his family.

 

[grumix8]

Kicks and screams and changes his future his predestiantion and not this that with God you can't change your future or predestiantion I see you can't change your future idea and you do not understand it still ! This why you do not understand how freewill works in God's favor and his plan of God. But still stuck with the laws of modern world and liberalism USA faces ! You have freedom to choose and better under God's wing and not in space where psycologist and scientist say they don't get to choose and if they choose they would make more errors and wouldn't recognize them !

 

[gordon777]

That seems like freewill to write our own words, opinions and ideas, yet at the same time, without the Spirit of God, wont b truth, wont be right, wont have purpose.

The Spirit gives man freedom from sin, until then they were servants without free will, to not be able to avoid in and death.

If the Son makes us free, we are purchased by Him and serve His righteousness through His Spirit now.

 

[electedbyHim]

No, God doesn’t give people free will if you take it to mean that they can choose anything they want. I would define free will as this: every human being has the freedom to choose whatever sin he wants. That’s free will. You can choose whatever sin you want to choose, you just can’t choose not to sin.

So yes, there’s free will, but there’s only free will within the framework of depravity and corruption. The one thing you can choose is to get out of there. For that, you have to cry for the mercy and grace of God to extract you, which God does by His own sovereign love and power.

Sinners think they have free will, but the Bible defines sinners as being in bondage to sin. It is a bondage to sin so profound that the only thing they can choose is which sin to commit.

I believe that before the Lord saved me that I was a slave to sin. All my decisions and choices were influenced by sin. Even the supposed good decisions and choices I made were sinful because they were motivated by pride.

Now that I am a slave to Christ, Holy Spirit dwells in me, and when I am filled and walk by the Spirit my choices and decisions are influenced by the Spirit.

Either way, I believe I was never free to make my own decisions. I was either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ.

A slave is not free.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grumix8]

Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever

 

[grumix8]

Understand our freedom did exist ! And existed in Heaven when Lucifer rebbeled, truly freewill exist in the spectrum of decision but the concept of the past, present, and future makes us think freewill doesn't exist because everything God's see's and foresaws decided everything for us. Nope people just like their are sciences explaining our existence their is other realms of existence of aliens, spirits and time that our thinking does not know and exist God created it becuase he is above it all but paths that exist and ways that exist in those ways explain that freedom exist probablility exist and Lucifer is one that's he was perfect in every sense we do knot know and yet he reblled and proves freewill myth is not myth and Ray I copy something from him. Still were just the tip of the iceberg in freewill and consciousness and existing explaining that what we percieve in our brains and eyes is not how freewil is exist by God and he gives us choice to do good and evil people don't understand it.

 

[grumix8]

Because they want to control the base of it and with words grab their destiny and say like scientist they cannot really choose because their future was chosen for them and everything is planned ? Not true Moses and Hulda and Elijah changed the future of the world with thier decision can we who are in this choosing of good and evil also change the destiny of this world and do good and not the same mistakes as them ? Yes, we can can Jesus do it ? He did change our destiny all together.

 

[grumix8]

No, people you just begginign to enter the tip of freewill as we speak we have the verses and in greek mean different things and in hebrew mean different things. But how in the universe rules are different and no we are bound becuase their Is more to God he is not showing we know him as the God of before, today and tomorrow are thier more time measurments in the universe ? Yes, Do angels, aliens, and other beings that exist have different counting than we do ? yes, understand God is beyond destiny and he gives us that to be measure by time like we know it now but there is more ways to count time from angel perspective, alien perspective, and above all from God's perpsective for he is has not limits and he has counting system different from us.

 

[grumix8]

Freewill is it based from God's letting people to choose to love him or not ? He let us choose our destiny can change from that ? Dont' go too far people he onlys wants us to choose either to be freed by him from sin thru Jesus and be baptized simple as that and not to choose to do evil simple people. Does freedom exist outside of our science and counting time and counting destiny and God can make it happen ? Yes he can he can do it all for he is God and only God judges God ! We cannot go beyond that but he can craete it people Don't rely on your own efforts in yoru decison but pray and rely on his and he will unchange your destiny to youd dream of saving your family to be rich man in god's way and be the thing you want he put in your heart to free in freewill in his love he gaves us life to choose and enjoy this magnifecent thing called life and live it with all your might and feelings.

 

[grumix8]

Choose God above it all and put him first he will change your ways and find your dream come reality and really be all the things you can be !

 

[electedbyHim]

Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever

I am not certain if this is a response to my comment about being a slave.

I was talking in the spiritual sense, not a physical.

We all have different opinions and thoughts on things.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My free will means I can do everything that God wants me to do.

It also means you can do anything God doesn’t want you to do.

 

[grumix8]

I am not certain if this is a response to my comment about being a slave.

I was talking in the spiritual sense, not a physical.

We all have different opinions and thoughts on things.

Grace and peace to you.

No electedbyhim you did not understand Know that your readin this from another time when I was disccusing it and do not understand it please read it or better yet here tlaking to you in P.M. to show you the information.

 

[grumix8]

People the choosing right or wrong and have the freedom to choose it was something G-d gave and he gave it to Adam that is why he disobeyed if he could not he would of not of fallen. The reason freewill has and even I don't like saying the devil had freewill. So know that freedom of deciding even do the word freewill does not exist in hebrew language and have found the same question the truth is that freedom to choose and disobey G-d has existed before the bible and angels and man have it.
It does not the word or phrase freewill does not exist in the hebrew langauge it conception does not exist. But still to choose " לבחור" It is what closest word to freewill of choosing is.

 

[grumix8]

but free does not exit with it and it does not mean the same thing in modern times. Liberals, democracy, and tea party do not mean the same thing in old time hebrew and wouldn't mean that.
see that you have all the right to choose good or evil and everything is choices you make but like moses who should pray for the water but instead stroke it. Also Hulda who made mistake in prophecy or the kings of israel all have made mistakes and change the course of destiny but still God's plan adapts to thier errors not God for he dones not make errors. But still things willbe different if they didn't do those things but all works good at the end.