Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Brother Mike]

There is no other Gods, none other formed, none other made, no other rock.

I understand why this point can not be more clear. One God. There is none Like God.

John 1:18 is still Jesus in the bosom of the Father. If Jesus is declaring, God is till declaring in Acts and Psalms. God's Spoken Word came to pass and it takes trinity to translate that to mean something a little different. Without Trinity we translate it like everything else God said comes to pass. That is my point.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If you were to read this in a book. "Let me show you I can get my sales up boss, then you can give me bonuses like you did when the company first started."
You would not read that as ONE person there but Two people. A boss and Employee. It takes a doctrine to mess up something simple.

We don't know exactly Who Jesus was from the very Start. He said just like before the Word Was give me that same Glory again. What was He before the World Was? Who gave him glory. According to Trinity there is no Son, but ONE GOD. This presents issues with me trying to see just ONE here.

You want to go against monotheism and believe in polytheism but that is clearly an unbiblical position.

Once again this is a religious doctrine. The same scriptures that used the word God for God the father also used it for devils. This is mans thinking of What god is. Is it in scripture? Can there only be One creator who made all things, who is the rock, and no other God like Him made? Yes there can, but it does not omit a Son if the son has always been with. Is God the Arm of our salvation the Rock? Yes He is, but it does not mean He did not have a Son who He appointed things to as an Heir.

There is more than one thing labeled god in the bible, us, Satan, Idols, and so on. One God the Creator and One Lord Jesus Christ whom Paul said it's those we recognize.

The one God concept came from man. I can show you many in the bible. We need to pinpoint the ones that matter.
There is only one creator, whom there is none like, nor will be. That is also very clear.
There is also a Son who had been here before the Earth was even created and given Glory by His father. Jesus said that, Not me.

Religion is rigid as you know. We don't know exactly Who Jesus is, or was, but we know him as Saviour and God. We know He was here with the Father and the Father had given Him Glory. A ONE God is not just giving himself glory.

I am not trying to change your mind about your Belief in this ONE GOD. I am showing you why the Trinity doctrine as it is written is hard for me to fathom. I am telling you why I just does not make sense. Ersimus did not even think it made sense but threw in the comma in the 3rd edition of the received text just to keep the peace. That is His words.

No matter what version of Trinity you use, it all comes at 3=1. So it's a belief more on there just being ONE GOD and the rest is just fluff in an attempt to explain why we believe there is only ONE God when Satan is also called god. That tells me God is a man concept and not a scripture concept.

That is what I can't get around.

Mike.

 

[Free]

No, it is not showing how they became separate. The Father is not, nor has ever been, the Son. They have always been separate. Phil 2:5-8 is merely stating that the Son, who was God in nature, took human flesh.

But it is showing how they became separate. He emptied, humbled and became obedient. Not God in nature, but EQUAL TO GOD. Phil 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

Again, it is not showing how they became separate. You are making Jesus a created being which goes against Scripture. The passage simply shows that Jesus, who was God in nature, humbled himself and became human.

But emptied, humbled and becoming are verbs. A verb describes an action, and it clearly says Jesus is equal to God.

Yes.

The definition of equal is what it is.

So please provide a definition.

I never said Jesus is a created being.

Your interpretation of Phil 2:6 implies that Jesus is a created being.

The book of Timothy cleary states that God manifested himself into flesh. God didn't create himself into flesh, rather he manifested himself. There is a difference between created and manifested.

And just what is that difference? You are very close to Gnosticism here, so be careful.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] - Created and manifested are not the same. Scripture clearly states that God manifested himself. 1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifest?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/created?s=t

However, creation comes after manifestation, so I have no idea why the word created would bother you. You have to create something for something to exist. I manifested myself as a guitar player on stage, but I created the song by writing it that PUT me on stage. God manifested himself into Jesus by lowering himself, but God created the flesh and bones that allowed Jesus to walk, talk and think. If God didn't create legs for Jesus, then Jesus would be floating around instead.

Did God not create flesh and bones. God exists in the spirit realm. The flesh and bones of God did not always exist. He had to manifest himself FIRST into flesh, THEN create what needs to be created in a human being; mind, heart, bones, flesh, arms, legs etc..of a human being. [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] can you please explain to Free Phil 2:5-8 please.

 

[Free]

There is no other Gods, none other formed, none other made, no other rock.

I understand why this point can not be more clear. One God. There is none Like God.

Again, you contradict yourself. You still argue that there are two Gods, yet you here state there is one God. You really, really need to clear this up. Is there only one God or are there two Gods?

John 1:18 is still Jesus in the bosom of the Father. If Jesus is declaring, God is till declaring in Acts and Psalms. God's Spoken Word came to pass and it takes trinity to translate that to mean something a little different. Without Trinity we translate it like everything else God said comes to pass. That is my point.

I really don't understand your point.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If you were to read this in a book. "Let me show you I can get my sales up boss, then you can give me bonuses like you did when the company first started."
You would not read that as ONE person there but Two people. A boss and Employee. It takes a doctrine to mess up something simple.

Yes, two people. And? The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. I have made that abundantly clear.

We don't know exactly Who Jesus was from the very Start. He said just like before the World Was give me that same Glory again. What was He before the World Was? Who gave him glory. According to Trinity there is no Son, but ONE GOD. This presents issues with me trying to see just ONE here.

It really seems as though you are not reading what I'm writing nor understand what the doctrine of the Trinity states. As I have posted several times now, the Trinity affirms the deity of Jesus. This means he has always existed, just like the Father.

I have made these things very clear so I don't know why you present such arguments.

You want to go against monotheism and believe in polytheism but that is clearly an unbiblical position.

Once again this is a religious doctrine. The same scriptures that used the word God for God the father also used it for devils. This is mans thinking of What god is. Is it in scripture? Can there only be One creator who made all things, who is the rock, and no other God like Him made? Yes there can, but it does not omit a Son if the son has always been with. Is God the Arm of our salvation the Rock? Yes He is, but it does not mean He did not have a Son who He appointed things to as an Heir.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Either you believe in two Gods and are a polytheist, going against the Bible, or you believe in one God, as Scripture states, and are a monotheist.

There is more than one thing labeled god in the bible, us, Satan, Idols, and so on. One God the Creator and One Lord Jesus Christ whom Paul said it's those we recognize.

Of course these things must be properly understood. There is only one actual God. The Bible affirms this over and over and over.

The one God concept came from man. I can show you many in the bible. We need to pinpoint the ones that matter.
There is only one creator, whom there is none like, nor will be. That is also very clear.

"The one God concept came from man." Seriously? After all those passages I just provided which clearly show that such a belief comes from the Bible?

There is also a Son who had been here before the Earth was even created and given Glory by His father. Jesus said that, Not me.

Yes, and?

Religion is rigid as you know. We don't know exactly Who Jesus is, or was, but we know him as Saviour and God. We know He was here with the Father and the Father had given Him Glory. A ONE God is not just giving himself glory.

I am not trying to change your mind about your Belief in this ONE GOD. I am showing you why the Trinity doctrine as it is written is hard for me to fathom. I am telling you why I just does not make sense. Ersimus did not even think it made sense but threw in the comma in the 3rd edition of the received text just to keep the peace. That is His words.

The Johannine Comma has nothing to do with whether or not the Trinity is true.

No matter what version of Trinity you use, it all comes at 3=1. So it's a belief more on there just being ONE GOD and the rest is just fluff in an attempt to explain why we believe there is only ONE God when Satan is also called god. That tells me God is a man concept and not a scripture concept.

That is what I can't get around.

Mike.

You are simply not understanding the usage of "god" in the Bible. Many words, if not most, in Scripture have different nuances in meaning depending on how they are used, depending on context.

The meaning of "God" as it relates to YHWH, the Creator, is certainly different than what is meant when Paul refers to Satan as "the god of this world." Of course Paul is not saying that Satan is a god of some sort. He simply means that the world worships him as such.

Indeed, look at what Paul says here:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— (ESV)

This affirms what the Bible says throughout--that there is only one actual God and that all other "gods" are false and not really gods at all.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Which seems to be Paul's expansion of the Shema:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

This is a very clear statement of monothesim.

 

[Free]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] - Created and manifested are not the same. Scripture clearly states that God manifested himself. 1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifest?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/created?s=t

However, creation comes after manifestation, so I have no idea why the word created would bother you. You have to create something for something to exist. I manifested myself as a guitar player on stage, but I created the song by writing it that PUT me on stage. God manifested himself into Jesus by lowering himself, but God created the flesh and bones that allowed Jesus to walk, talk and think. If God didn't create legs for Jesus, then Jesus would be floating around instead.

Did God not create flesh and bones. God exists in the spirit realm. The flesh and bones of God did not always exist. He had to manifest himself FIRST into flesh, THEN create what needs to be created in a human being; mind, heart, bones, flesh, arms, legs etc..of a human being. [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] can you please explain to Free Phil 2:5-8 please.

The way you are using "manifestation" is in an act of creating. The Son and the Father are not the same person. The Son took on human flesh, not the Father.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION], free knows that. the father didn't come the earth. but I will say this that yhwh is the expressed parent image of the son. e

 

[Guest]

The way you are using "manifestation" is in an act of creating. The Son and the Father are not the same person. The Son took on human flesh, not the Father.

The Son took on human flesh, wow you make it sound so simple. What does the word equal mean to you? I also clarified that manifestation and creation are not the same.

 

[Free]

The way you are using "manifestation" is in an act of creating. The Son and the Father are not the same person. The Son took on human flesh, not the Father.

The Son took on human flesh, wow you make it sound so simple. What does the word equal mean to you? I also clarified that manifestation and creation are not the same.

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal."

 

[Guest]

The way you are using "manifestation" is in an act of creating. The Son and the Father are not the same person. The Son took on human flesh, not the Father.

The Son took on human flesh, wow you make it sound so simple. What does the word equal mean to you? I also clarified that manifestation and creation are not the same.

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t

1. as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.
3. evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest.
4. uniform in operation or effect: equal laws.
5. adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand.

 

[Free]

The way you are using "manifestation" is in an act of creating. The Son and the Father are not the same person. The Son took on human flesh, not the Father.

The Son took on human flesh, wow you make it sound so simple. What does the word equal mean to you? I also clarified that manifestation and creation are not the same.

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t

1. as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.
3. evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest.
4. uniform in operation or effect: equal laws.
5. adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand.

Okay. So which definition applies to Phil 2:6 and why?

 

[Guest]

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t

1. as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.
3. evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest.
4. uniform in operation or effect: equal laws.
5. adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand.

Okay. So which definition applies to Phil 2:6 and why?

Pick one, lol geez. As great as, the same as, like or alike in quantity degree/value, same rank/ability/merit, evenly proportioned or balanced, equal laws. Notice the word same. Why?? Why do you think, because definitions are facts Free.

 

[Free]

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Equal?s=t

1. as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.
3. evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest.
4. uniform in operation or effect: equal laws.
5. adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand.

Okay. So which definition applies to Phil 2:6 and why?

Pick one, lol geez. As great as, the same as, like or alike in quantity degree/value, same rank/ability/merit, evenly proportioned or balanced, equal laws. Notice the word same. Why?? Why do you think, because definitions are facts Free.

Not all definitions of a word apply in a given circumstance. That is basic biblical interpretation and simply not how it works outside of Scripture. We simply cannot throw multiple definitions around and think we have said something.

I think the President of the US is equal to the Prime Minister of Canada. Do you agree?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What I stated brother is that without a "Trinity" doctrine then we read the Word was made flesh just like we read everything else God declared and it came to pass. Mary became Pregnant by the Spoken Word through the power of the Holy Spirit. That was how Jesus was Begotten, and came into the World. Something God said as always came to pass. This is why the Word begotten is also included twice in John and in acts with the exact Word God spoke in Psalms that came to pass. This is how we would interpret anything that God has said, declared or spoken. When God speaks, it comes to pass and in this case the spoken Word was made flesh, through Mary. This was how Jesus was begotten in a flesh body and came to Earth, by what God had declared would happen. If I have a doctrine in the way of what I am reading, then what I read would be normally how I would read it until I have a chance to prove my doctrine. So instead of "The Word was made flesh" as something that came to pass as God declared in Psalm. The Word instead becomes a person, or Part of the Triune God. The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit. So it's no longer God's Word, or as Jesus said My Words, or my Fathers Words, but the Word is now a person by which we have no scripture to back that up, except "The Word Was God" the same.................. So, only with a Doctrine written by several men with different versions would I examine "The Word was made flesh" as to mean something else that would not normally mean that. The Word made tree's, and everything else we see, but tress are not a person, nor are they a god.

People miss this point Bro. Mike and it's a point we should spend more time on in my opinion. When John 1 and 1 John 1 are studied we typically bring in the whole "God the Son' preconception and don't allow for any other insight to be gleaned from these texts. I think we cause ourselves to miss a bigger picture that writer may have been trying to paint. As I said elsewhere, I think there's a bigger picture we must look at in order to take everything in and harmonize what we read in scripture. It seems pretty clear from what is written about God in the scriptures that God had/has a plan for His creation. Being that He is said to know the end from the beginning I think it is a safe assumption to pressume that He not only created man knowing man would sin, but also had man's sin in His plans from the beginning. With this being the case sin, and a world infested with sins reprocussions had to have been a part of the Divine Plan that is said to culminate in Jesus, God's Anointed One. With this in mind, when we look at texts like John 1:1-14, and 1st John, we may be able to gain greater understanding of what the LOGOS spoken of actually refers to.

 

[Guest]

Not all definitions of a word apply in a given circumstance. That is basic biblical interpretation and simply not how it works outside of Scripture. We simply cannot throw multiple definitions around and think we have said something.

I think the President of the US is equal to the Prime Minister of Canada. Do you agree?

But the word equal is literally written in scripture. The example you gave me is just what you think. What you think and the actual definitions of words are not the same. Since the word equal is written in scripture and scripture is the word of God, 1+1=2. What you think vs. what God thinks.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[Free]

Not all definitions of a word apply in a given circumstance. That is basic biblical interpretation and simply not how it works outside of Scripture. We simply cannot throw multiple definitions around and think we have said something.

I think the President of the US is equal to the Prime Minister of Canada. Do you agree?

But the word equal is literally written in scripture. The example you gave me is just what you think. What you think and the actual definitions of words are not the same. Since the word equal is written in scripture and scripture is the word of God, 1+1=2. What you think vs. what God thinks.

You are doing the very same thing, without any basis for doing so. I can provide, and have provided, plenty of basis for what I am meaning. Even the definitions you gave very much support my example.

The very context of the passage makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is not the Father and that it was Jesus who became flesh:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Clearly two different persons being spoken of.

 

[Free]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Yes, and?

 

[Brother Mike]

Free:
1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— (ESV)

Brother, don't do the translation switch with me............. So-Called is added. Paul states there are Other gods that are called gods. That is the Greek Brother.

Free:

You are simply not understanding the usage of "god" in the Bible. Many words, if not most, in Scripture have different nuances in meaning depending on how they are used, depending on context

NO, Your not understanding the Usage of God in the Bible. This is the Root of our Trinity issue.

Theos:
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

god is a deity of uncertain affinity. A DEITY or Immortal.

Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods (Theos) to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

We have two god's here in these scriptures. One is Satan who is immortal (Deity) and in control and in charge.
The other is gods as in devils who are immortal or to man false gods which are nothing. Pick which one.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods;('ĕlôhı̂ym) and all of you are children of the most High.

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God ('ĕlôhı̂ym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty;(EL) he judgeth among the gods.('ĕlôhı̂ym)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (Theos)?

The bible does not teach there is ONE God. The Bible teaches exactly what Paul said, there be many gods and many lords. But there is only TWO God the Father by whom are all things and the Lord Jesus Christ by whom all things.

From Wikki:

Polytheism is the worship or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals.

The Holy Spirit most definitely called Satan god. Not just a god like Jesus called us (Being in the image of God, immortal and like God) NO, but God of this World, that belongs to God the Father until his lease runs out.

The Holy Spirit could have given any other Word but Theos or ('ĕlôhı̂ym. He could have given us Magistrates or commander, or anything but the same title God uses. He did not because He is speaking of a Class. A class of something that is immortal and a deity by nature. That is what the Holy Spirit considered what we call a god.

Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God

Monotheism believes there is nothing else that can be labeled god but just one god. Muslim, Jews, you pick which god is suppose to be one. The Holy Spirit says different.

Mans Definition depending on belief:

Mans definition of there just being one god does not steem from the definition of monotheism itself else all would believe in the same god. It's defined in a mans head what He thinks god is. This is not the Holy Spirits definition, not monotheisms definition but by each individual man on how he thinks it should be.

As a Christian there is One God the Creator of all things by which there is no other creator or any other god by which all things consist. There is also one Jesus Christ who is God but by whom all things were made and given, being Glorified by the father before the earth was formed. That makes 2, but only 1 creator and Father.

There are also gods by class being defined as deity or immortal having some rule and authority. Some angelic and the children of God the creator whom they shall be judged the same.

So when you use this Polytheism or Monotheism stuff. Your not really using the definition but what you personally believe what it should be. You make up the class of what a god is on your own, when instead you should be saying there is Only One God the creator by whom all things consist.

Mike.


I

 

[Guest]

@Free John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Yes, and?

Yes, two different persons but they are equal in rank. Two different persons because they play two different roles. Just because they play two different roles doesn't mean they aren't equal! It just means that clearly, that is how VAST God is! Psalm 139:17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Notice the word thoughts here.

You're clearly ignoring how the son became the son. That's very important to acknowledge. It's the piece of the puzzle that you're not acknowledging in Php 2:5-11. Did you read John 5:18? Free, you really like to make people work for the truth huh. Notice the title of John 5:18 is 'Jesus Is Equal with God.'

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION]. jesus is the son. he always is and was and shall be.are you looking for a mother of jesus in heaven who is married to the father?