Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Free]

@Free John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Yes, and?

Yes, two different persons but they are equal in rank. Two different persons because they play two different roles. Just because they play two different roles doesn't mean they aren't equal! It just means that clearly, that is how VAST God is! Psalm 139:17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Notice the word thoughts here.

You're clearly ignoring how the son became the son. That's very important to acknowledge. It's the piece of the puzzle that you're not acknowledging in Php 2:5-11. Did you read John 5:18? Free, you really like to make people work for the truth huh. Notice the title of John 5:18 is 'Jesus Is Equal with God.'

This is no different than anything I have said. We agree on that but that was not what the discussion is about. The problem is that you think:

"scripture also explains how they became separate. An action took place. The Father lowered HIMSELF to a servant." (post #52)

If you're using Phil 2:5-8 to show this, you're incorrect, it doesn't. In fact, it is shown nowhere in Scripture, unless you can show me otherwise.

 

[Guest]

I don't deny that Jesus is the son. That's because God lowered himself, just like you also said [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]. God emptied himself and humbled himself to a servant.

 

[jasoncran]

God the son, not God the father, nor God the holy spirit.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] I have been showing you all this time. You're just denying what scripture is saying and the definitions of words. Focus on the word EQUAL. Is it clicking yet? No [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] you're wrong. It is in fact God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. the holy spirit speaks not himself. God if he came to the earth then, okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. if [MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION], that is true, then who answered Jesus' prayer since he was aslo fully god?

 

[Free]

Free:
1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— (ESV)

Brother, don't do the translation switch with me............. So-Called is added. Paul states there are Other gods that are called gods. That is the Greek Brother.

I am not doing a translation switch. I am using the translation I have used throughout this discussion and the one I use most. It is one of the best, if not the best, translations available. That "so-called" may not appear in the Greek is irrelevant. If one takes the biblical understanding of the use of "gods," one can easily see that they are, in fact, so-called because there is only one God. This is a foundational fact of Judaism and Christianity.

Free:

You are simply not understanding the usage of "god" in the Bible. Many words, if not most, in Scripture have different nuances in meaning depending on how they are used, depending on context

NO, Your not understanding the Usage of God in the Bible. This is the Root of our Trinity issue.

Theos:
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

god is a deity of uncertain affinity. A DEITY or Immortal.

Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods (Theos) to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

We have two god's here in these scriptures. One is Satan who is immortal (Deity) and in control and in charge.
The other is gods as in devils who are immortal or to man false gods which are nothing. Pick which one.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods;('ĕlôhı̂ym) and all of you are children of the most High.

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God ('ĕlôhı̂ym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty;(EL) he judgeth among the gods.('ĕlôhı̂ym)

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (Theos)?

To say that I am stunned that someone who claims to be a Christian believes that Satan is deity and immortal, that there are many actual gods, would be a huge understatement. Your position is completely and utterly unbiblical.

The bible does not teach there is ONE God. The Bible teaches exactly what Paul said, there be many gods and many lords. But there is only TWO God the Father by whom are all things and the Lord Jesus Christ by whom all things.

The Bible most certainly does teach that there is only one God. You have said so yourself! Would you like me to go back and provide your own statements? Not to mention the many passages I have given which state precisely and unequivocally that there is only one God.

You are simply and clearly not understanding the nuances in meaning of "god" and "gods." I am astounded.

From Wikki:

Polytheism is the worship or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals.

Exactly. This shows you are a polytheist whereas the Judeo-Christian worldview is strictly monotheist.

The Holy Spirit most definitely called Satan god. Not just a god like Jesus called us (Being in the image of God, immortal and like God) NO, but God of this World, that belongs to God the Father until his lease runs out.

Where?

Mans Definition depending on belief:

Mans definition of there just being one god does not steem from the definition of monotheism itself else all would believe in the same god.

No. This is simply a fallacious argument.

As a Christian there is One God the Creator of all things by which there is no other creator or any other god by which all things consist. There is also one Jesus Christ who is God but by whom all things were made and given, being Glorified by the father before the earth was formed. That makes 2, but only 1 creator and Father.

No, there is one God, period. This is what the Bible shows.

There are also gods by class being defined as deity or immortal having some rule and authority. Some angelic and the children of God the creator whom they shall be judged the same.

No, there are not. This is a serious error.

So when you use this Polytheism or Monotheism stuff. Your not really using the definition but what you personally believe what it should be. You make up the class of what a god is on your own, when instead you should be saying there is Only One God the creator by whom all things consist.

No, I'm using the definition. I have provided ample biblical evidence that there was, is, and only ever will be, one God. That is the definition of monotheism, therefore, Christianity was, is, and only ever will be, monotheistic.

 

[Guest]

ok. the holy spirit speaks not himself. God if he came to the earth then, okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. if @urk , that is true, then who answered Jesus' prayer since he was aslo fully god?

God the Father answers his prayers because God lowered himself to a servant. God himself lowering himself to a servant is truth, because God is infinite in knowledge and knows all things. It doesn't make sense to us because you're not humbling yourself to the vastness of God's thoughts. When it comes to praying he lowered himself because of obedience.

 

[Free]

I don't deny that Jesus is the son.

I never said you did. :dunno

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] I have been showing you all this time. You're just denying what scripture is saying and the definitions of words. Focus on the word EQUAL. Is it clicking yet? No .

And here we go again....Address the points I am actually making.

You stated that the Father came down and manifested as the Son. My point is that this is false. You need to provide support.

 

[jasoncran]

satan doesn't NOT have the world in lease. he didn't sign a contract with God to get the earth! he is allowed to be around until such time God deems its time to judge him. that is easily supported by the idea in jewish thought about adam living less then a thousand years and aslo how Solomon carried out David's wishes for men who he said were to die.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. the holy spirit speaks not himself. God if he came to the earth then, okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. if @urk , that is true, then who answered Jesus' prayer since he was aslo fully god?

God the Father answers his prayers because God lowered himself to a servant. God himself lowering himself to a servant is truth, because God is infinite in knowledge and knows all things. It doesn't make sense to us because you're not humbling yourself to the vastness of God's thoughts. When it comes to praying he lowered himself because of obedience.

Sir, I have spent days and hours in pondering what the name of the LORD means. I fully understand what is understandable about this name
Yud Hey Vah Hey. that Name has myriads of meanings. one of them is the character which is often associated with the cross.Mercy and Grace.

 

[Guest]

And here we go again....Address the points I am actually making.

You stated that the Father came down and manifested as the Son. My point is that this is false. You need to provide support.

It's not false, it's clearly written in well, TWO scriptures that I have located. My support is in the definition of the word equal. How could God lower himself to son? HE'S GOD, HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS. I think this debate has hit a dead end.

 

[Free]

And here we go again....Address the points I am actually making.

You stated that the Father came down and manifested as the Son. My point is that this is false. You need to provide support.

It's not false, it's clearly written in well, TWO scriptures that I have located. My support is in the definition of the word equal. How could God lower himself to son? HE'S GOD, HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS. I think this debate has hit a dead end.

You have provided no such evidence and appealing to "equal" is irrelevant. The Son is equal to the Father but it was not the Father who humbled himself to become the Son. How, in any rational sense, can a Father be his own Son and a Son his own Father? And, no, "HE'S GOD, HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS," is not a valid counter-argument.

The Son humbled himself to take on human flesh. That is what the very context of Phil 2:6 shows. Why do you want to ignore the context?

 

[Guest]

And here we go again....Address the points I am actually making.

You stated that the Father came down and manifested as the Son. My point is that this is false. You need to provide support.

It's not false, it's clearly written in well, TWO scriptures that I have located. My support is in the definition of the word equal. How could God lower himself to son? HE'S GOD, HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS. I think this debate has hit a dead end.

You have provided no such evidence and appealing to "equal" is irrelevant. The Son is equal to the Father but it was not the Father who humbled himself to become the Son. How, in any rational sense, can a Father be his own Son and a Son his own Father? And, no, "HE'S GOD, HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS," is not a valid counter-argument.

The Son humbled himself to take on human flesh. That is what the very context of Phil 2:6 shows. Why do you want to ignore the context?

The evidence is in the definition of the word equal Free. The Father did not humble himself to become the son? Are you sure about that? John 14:9-11 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not BELIEVE that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. He lowered himself to humanity because he loves us that much.

 

[Guest]

@Free The word Father and son are there because of the roles they play. THAT'S IT. But they are both equal. Creator/Intercessor - Father/Son. If God didn't humble himself as a servant to humanity there would be no cross, again the role they played. The reason he lowered himself to scum is because of humanity and their sinful nature. He gave us a way out of our sinful nature. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[Guest]

God is infinite and perfect in knowledge. Does anyone understand what that means.

 

[Guest]

I think people get Father/Son in the Bible mixed up with Father/Son as in parents. Sooo not the same in many many many ways. First of all, the human dad that you played catch and baseball with is not God deity. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Brother Mike]

I think people get Father/Son in the Bible mixed up with Father/Son as in parents. Sooo not the same in many many many ways. First of all, the human dad that you played catch and baseball with is not God deity. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

I am thinking I have lots of questions when I get to heaven. The only thing we are getting hung up on here is this ONE God when each is distinct from each other. Like Husband and wife are one flesh but distinct from each other. We are one in marriage, but we are two humans. So I see it boil down to what the term "god" means.

Aside from that term I agree with the rest, but believe Jesus Should get the "GOD" title as well as the Father, but not the same exact "God" making two. It boils down to what "god" means which came from Germany or Europe somewhere meaning a supreme being, possibly the creator of all things.



Mike.

 

[Guest]

Father/Son equal but different roles..

Musician Example: Even though it takes my vocal chords to sing a song, I still need my hand to write the song. BUT I’m doing all of this in the same body. My body never changed, it is equal to who I am. It's just that the vocal chords and my hand have different roles.

Father/Son God Deity Example: Even though it takes the power of God to manifest himself into flesh, he still needs to lower himself to a servant because of human sin. BUT God is doing all of this in the same body per say. Father in him, him in the Father. Same body. The thing that we’re missing is that God HAD to lower himself to human form. It was a MUST. He HAD to suffer like man suffers. The Father and son are of the same flesh but have different roles.

Vocal chords/Manifest
Write the song/lower himself
Same Body - Equal in Body

@Brother Mike Very good example. Husband/Wife one flesh with different roles. Father/Son one flesh with different roles.

:amen

 

[Jarvis]

[MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION], so you believe that the Father and Son are the same person? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.

When Jesus was praying in the garden, he was praying to the Father. A lot of Oneness believers like to say it was his fleshly half praying to his spiritual half. This doesn't make any sense either. This implies that his spiritual half is in Heaven, and his fleshly half was on Earth. So what about when Jesus ascended back up into Heaven? That means that it was his fleshly half going back to Heaven. Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father, so in your terms that means his fleshly half would sit to the right hand of his spiritual half. That means they are equal. His fleshly half is Man. How can Man be equal to God?

 

[Guest]

@urk , so you believe that the Father and Son are the same person? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.

When Jesus was praying in the garden, he was praying to the Father. A lot of Oneness believers like to say it was his fleshly half praying to his spiritual half. This doesn't make any sense either. This implies that his spiritual half is in Heaven, and his fleshly half was on Earth. So what about when Jesus ascended back up into Heaven? That means that it was his fleshly half going back to Heaven. Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father, so in your terms that means his fleshly half would sit to the right hand of his spiritual half. That means they are equal. His fleshly half is Man. How can Man be equal to God?

No not the same person, different persons with different roles but equal in deity. Man is not equal to God. I'm not talking about Joe at the coffee shop, I'm talking about God deity and the roles that both play.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 14:9-11 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not BELIEVE that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves

Phil 2:5-8 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Psalm 139:17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them!