Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Brother Mike]

Actually, the Trinity is there in Scripture.

Look at John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17; and at John's First Epistle, for example, and the end of Matthew 28. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all seen in these passages.

Any ecclesiastical boudy that tries to claim the credit for what is in Scripture itself is being rather too bold.

I am not arguing your studies or anyone else's studies. All 3 are seen, work as one, have always been, are a person and not it's, or things. I only gave the history of the Trinity Doctrine and it was first adopted by Rome, not the protestant Church. Rome at one point was against the idea of Trinity because the first incantations of it came from a non Christian view making Jesus a demi god of some sort.

The protestant church did not view the Trinity as scriptural so Rome makes a decree to punish those that don't take this view after they adopted what they felt acceptable. John Calvin is the earliest protestant version to be complete in the 15th century. That battle was on there for Ersimus to add the comma to the 3rd edition of the received text which was a gospel by John. Erismus (however you spell it) did not believe in a Trinity concept and felt that one document was a forgery but added it to keep the peace. His own words.

However, I don't find it scriptural to say that Jesus and the Father are just ONE GOD when there are Two of them. If God came down in the flesh (Creator Father) then He did not send His son but himself. The concept of what constitutes a "god" is the problem. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Team. Trinity Doctrine is fine at that point. They are ONE GOD, then we have a issue.

Mike.

 

[farouk]

Clearly deity and personality are distinct. Three distinct Persons in one glorious God.

Arguing to the contrary would be unScriptural. The references given can be followed through.

 

[Guest]

@Free I wasn't trying to get you upset, sorry about that. Ok, I will agree that Jesus always existed and that he was always the son, but check this out. My stance is that the Father lowered himself as son in regards too, father in me, me in the father. Because the Father is omnipresent.

@Brother Mike How can God 'choose' him if he is the only son. Not much to choose from, haha. I'm just joking.

 

[Brother Mike]

Clearly deity and personality are distinct. Three distinct Persons in one glorious God.

Arguing to the contrary would be unScriptural. The references given can be followed through.

I understand all that. I don't think you see the problem. Let's look at the first incantation of the Doctrine as it was put together minus the fact Jesus was just a deity in the first ideas of it.

This is the first put together version of Trinity. First council of Nicea

Jesus Christ is described as "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God", proclaiming his divinity.
Jesus Christ is said to be "begotten, not made", asserting that he was not a mere creature, brought into being out of nothing, but the true Son of God, brought into being 'from the substance of the Father'.
He is said to be "one in being with The Father".

A full century before this Tertullian had set in writing the ground work for Trinity. However it was rejected based on a few things Tertullian had said.

At some points in Ch. 9, 14 and 26, Tertullian says things that could be taken to suggest that he thought that the Son is not equal to the Father, but subordinate - a later heresy. However he seems to use words like 'secondary nature' to mean not inferior, but rather derived from the Father, which makes more sense in context. (Souter, p.62, n.1). No doubt he also knew Phil. 2 v.6 about Christ not considering equality something to be grasped.

So all Trinity Doctrines take a Pro-Nicenes stance that we have today. Some of the other early ones did not wash, some made us God and man, and the Nicenes one was the one accepted. With the stance of Theophilus of Antioch.

Baptist Trinity Doctrine: I know there is methodist and such as well as Catholic but it all says the same (Almost)

4. THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE GOD.

Trinity means tri-unity, or three-oneness. We have shown that there are three distinctions in the Godhead. Now, in order to prove the doctrine of the Trinity, rather than the doctrine of Tritheism, we must show that the three, while being distinguishable from one another, are yet one. This is proved:

4. THE THREE MEMBERS OF THE TRINITY ARE EQUAL.

Many of the same attributes are ascribed to each member of the Trinity, and the attributes thus ascribed are such as could not be possessed without all other divine attributes. The equality of the members of the Trinity is further shown by the fact that each one is recognized as God,

Farouk:
Now pay attention very closely to my argument. This is the Baptist version most likely based on John Calvin 1500's. It's a protestant view.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE GOD. But each a separate and distinct individual. Each individual is GOD and Recognized as God.

That is the Baptist Doctrine, "Based" on the Nicians doctrine.

Now Watch................ A god is defined as a triune being. 3 separate and distinct GODS make ONE God. A god is defined by a triune being............ It takes 3 distinct GODS to make ONE. The definition of What God is, is a Being that consist of 3 Distinct and equal individual GODS.

Since God is defined as a Triune being, and Each distinct person of the Godhead is considered God, then Each distinct person being God would also have to have their 3 distinct parts that Were God, since God is clearly defined as a triune being.


Not my doctrine, but right from their Trinity doctrine. That creates a infinite cycle of gods since God is only defined by a triune nature. That is exactly how the doctrine reads. You can't candy coat that, or say it's not so because GOD is ONE, Made up of 3 distinct GODS. Since the 3 disctinct persons are also GOD in ONE, then GOD being defined for us by Trinity Needs Each distinct person who is GOD to also have 3 distinct Persons or else they are NOT GOD.

Trinity defines God as 3 distinct Persons who are equal and GOD that Make one. If the 3 are also God, then by definition each needs their 3 distinct persons also or else they are not defined AS GOD!!!! (Trinity Doctrine, not mine)

If you can't understand the problem with the Trinity doctrine at this point, there is not much else I can show you. You have to take the stance of the BAPTIST to cover it all up....... Their stance is this......

III. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY IS A MYSTERY INSCRUTABLE AND INSOLUBLE TO FINITE MINDS; BUT IT IS NOT SELF-CONTRADICTORY.

We make no attempt to deny or to explain away the mystery of the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a high mystery that human minds can never fathom.

We can't fathom it because it's not scripture. No scripture in the bible defines a god as a triune being......... NOWHERE!!!! Eloyhime is plural and can mean more than one but not triune. Theos the exclusive Word for God in the NT denotes only one defined in the text. Satan God of this Word "ONE" Theos is of uncertain affinity and a MALE NOUN (ONE)
The Jews do not believe in a Triune God and none of the NT writers ever used any word to describe God as a being with 3 parts. It's not there.

But if you want, take the Baptist stance and plead the 5th............ It's a mystery the Human mind can't understand. That same creed is also in the Catholic doctrine. Therefore you don't have to explain it, it just is the way it is. If that is your stance I respect that, if you think you can prove it in scripture I am here.


Mike.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] Do you think Jesus always had a body/arms/legs before Genesis 1:1

 

[Brother Mike]

@Brother Mike Do you think Jesus always had a body/arms/legs before Genesis 1:1

I assume since he had a throne he was able to sit. God the Father sits on a throne. We are created in their image and we have legs. I have never been to Heaven yet to look around though.

Mike.

 

[Guest]

@Brother Mike Do you think Jesus always had a body/arms/legs before Genesis 1:1

I assume since he had a throne he was able to sit. God the Father sits on a throne. We are created in their image and we have legs. I have never been to Heaven yet to look around though.

Mike.

No, I'm talking about before existence. Scripture says that he sat next to God AFTER he was resurrected from the dead, after he lived his life on earth. Do you have scripture that says he sat on a throne BEFORE EXISTENCE? Before Genesis 1:1.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] I think when anybody tries to explain the trinity, insanity lingers thereafter. Not because humans want to know everything, mainly because God makes us look like fools. :toofunny

 

[Brother Mike]

No, I'm talking about before existence. Scripture says that he sat next to God AFTER he was resurrected from the dead, after he lived his life on earth. Do you have scripture that says he sat on a throne BEFORE EXISTENCE? Before Genesis 1:1.

Beats me then. I assume they are not blobs of light floating around and Heaven is described as having physical things such as Streets made of Gold but no corruptions. We just have to see I guess. There is so much we still need to learn after leaving earth.

@reba I think when anybody tries to explain the trinity, insanity lingers thereafter. Not because humans want to know everything, mainly because God makes us look like fools.

It's not the person explaining it I don't think. I think it's Trinity's definition of What constitutes a God. There is a reason the "Mystery Part" is added to many of the different versions of it. If God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit a triune God, and Each person in the Trinity is distinct and separate yet God. Then each distinct person that is God would need 3 and separate persons in them to be called GOD. Because God is ONE a Triune God so each Person that Makes God called God would also have to be Triune Also. If not then Trinity does not keep it's own definition of who God is and by definition a God is triune.

That creates a infinite loop of Gods by it's own wording and definition of God. So we just Add it's a mystery such as the Baptist have done that the finite mind can not understand. That is just looking at the Doctrine as it's written, we not even got to the scriptures yet.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] I really like that definition of God. There HAS to be 3 different persons to make up ONE God. That's awesome. Good stuff here.

 

[reba]

@reba I think when anybody tries to explain the trinity, insanity lingers thereafter. Not because humans want to know everything, mainly because God makes us look like fools.

hmmm well here is my explanation

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Guest]

As long as we have a logical definition of the trinity in our head, all is well. Blessings everyone.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] What is the Jehovah Witness definition of the Holy Trinity?

 

[Guest]

Ohhhh the EGO..http://tafj.org/2008/02/21/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-the-trinity-jesus-salvation/

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only those who are of their Organization can be saved. That means anyone other than a Jehovah’s Witness can not be saved or have eternal life.

Cult status.

 

[Brother Mike]

hmmm well here is my explanation

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is fine, not going to go into the commna or when that was added. All 3 are one!!! We can't take the oneness scriptures though to prove one God otherwise we run into some translation problems. They all are one. Jesus said I am ONE in my Father. ONE.

Problem is Jesus said we are ONE in Him. That don't make us God. We are the body of Christ, His body and that don't make us God. Like Jesus we are born of the Word, made new but that don't make us God. Husband and wife one flesh, but that don't make ONe Human.

All 3 are One, but yet 3 all fully God, but it takes 3 to make God so all the 3 that are fully God would need another 3 by definition to be called God because it takes 3 to make God.

That was the issue Rebba. You create an infinite loop of what is considered to be God a triune being. This was also my point why it's called a mystery by most of the doctrines. I have not looked at the Lutheran or Methodist version yet. It's a mystery because you can't explain it.

@Brother Mike What is the Jehovah Witness definition of the Holy Trinity?

They believe that Jesus is a created being, an angel of some sort. They use some of the same arguments like Who Jesus pray to. They ignore a bunch of other scriptures though. My stance is like Jesus said, Both Him and the Father have always been here... TWO. Not One that needs 3 to become ONE.

We have to be careful because Jesus is God, He is the Son of God. JW's and Mormons do not believe that.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] What is the Jehovah Witness definition of the Holy Trinity?

The JW don't believe in a Trinty. Their bible translation says, "and the Word became a god".

At least that is what I remember it says.

All the 144,000 are JWs. and they already know who they are, by name recorded. If I remember correctly what they told me. Oh and some of them are women.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] Why don't JW's and Mormons understand that their wrong. Is it brainwashing.

 

[Guest]

@Brother Mike What is the Jehovah Witness definition of the Holy Trinity?

Their bible translation says, "and the Word became a god".

At least that is what I remember it says.

Ok that's just depressing. Did they not open up the book of Genesis. geez.

 

[Free]

@Free @Brother Mike @reba How would God want us to simplify this thread so we all agree. What would he want us/christians agreeing too.

How about a repeat of a previous post, showing some simple points:

1. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly man.
2. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly God.
3. The Bible shows that the Father is God.
4. The Bible shows that Jesus is the Son, who is separate and distinct from the Father.
5. The Bible shows that the Holy Spirit is God but yet is separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son.
6. The Bible shows that there is only one God.

The points are what they are and any and every doctrine on the nature of God must take them into account. I have found that the doctrine of the Trinity is the one that best takes them into account and gives a satisfactory explanation. All other doctrines I have heard lack in explaining one or more points, or either ignore or do away with one or more altogether.

 

[Guest]

@Free @Brother Mike @reba How would God want us to simplify this thread so we all agree. What would he want us/christians agreeing too.

How about a repeat of a previous post, showing some simple points:

1. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly man.
2. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly God.
3. The Bible shows that the Father is God.
4. The Bible shows that Jesus is the Son, who is separate and distinct from the Father.
5. The Bible shows that the Holy Spirit is God but yet is separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son.
6. The Bible shows that there is only one God.

The points are what they are and any and every doctrine on the nature of God must take them into account. I have found that the doctrine of the Trinity is the one that best takes them into account and gives a satisfactory explanation. All other doctrines I have heard lack in explaining one or more points, or either ignore or do away with one or more altogether.

This is good. I can agree to this, but please provide scripture that states Jesus is truly man and also stating that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct from the Father, just to cover all basics. Good stuff here, ty Free.