IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[Fastfredy0]

To believe she had no choice would render God a rapist.

LOL, I love this stuff.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Rollo...
No One Can Answer means that God does not let us know how we can be saved.
Is this what you believe?

God specifically inspired the bible so that He can be known by man
and so that man can know how to achieve salvation.

And I know you're just kidding about the last statement...
but there are lots of new persons here and they may not know.

Know what?

walpole



God created some people as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Thats Pauls point in Rom 9:21-22

1 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make[create] one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You failed to highlight "endured with much suffering" as though that didn't play into the picture.
Or do you just pick parts of passages to suit your needs?
Endured with much suffering means he waited for them to turn from their wicked ways.
And when they didn't, God used them for something else.
Just as in the days of Noah, as he built the ark, God waited with long suffering that no one else would turn to God.
1 Peter 3:20;

That gives a different meaning then the one you present to suit your purposes.

 

[JLB]

Just remember that Calvinism is the outlier and that they are a fringe group. The majority of Christianity does not believe in the doctrines of Calvin.

Enjoy...

Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

Know what?

You failed to highlight "endured with much suffering" as though that didn't play into the picture.
Or do you just pick parts of passages to suit your needs?
Endured with much suffering means he waited for them to turn from their wicked ways.
And when they didn't, God used them for something else.
Just as in the days of Noah, as he built the ark, God waited with long suffering that no one else would turn to God.
1 Peter 3:20;

That gives a different meaning then the one you present to suit your purposes.

I highlighted the whole passage. God does endure them with longsuffering, and during that time they are multiplying the sins they will be punished for.

 

[Walpole]

walpole



God created some people as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Thats Pauls point in Rom 9:21-22

1 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make[create] one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It's always just a matter of time before Calvinists post their favorite verse trying to prove how their God acts with pure will.

RE: Romans 9:21-22...

First, no professional potter would waste his time, effort, or money intentionally making defective pottery. Only a fool would believe otherwise. Secondly, Calvinists always fail to post the verses from Jeremiah, which St. Paul is referencing...

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.


This is actually REFUTING Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election as God tells the nation that IF they return from their evil ways and follow His law and repent, that He will not destroy them. Likewise, if God has spoken to build up a nation, if they do evil in his sight, he will turn from them and destroy them.

St. Paul uses this reference to Jeremiah 18 to explain to the Jews in Romans 9 why God was rejecting them as a nation and going to the Gentiles: Because the Jews refused to believe in Jesus Christ, while the Gentiles were choosing to believe the gospel. This shows God's election is according to faith; He chooses those who believe on Christ, and rejects those who do not.

Calvinism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity as Christianity teaches salvation is available to ALL MEN through Jesus Christ. (cf. John 1:12; Romans 1:16) Calvinism says salvation is offered only to those God chose to be elect. Nothing you can do can change God's mind if you were made to be pulpwood for Calvin's God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed. Salvation in Calvinism is a coin flip.

 

[jasonc]

A false statement ... probably from a misunderstanding of the definition of fatalism.
Fatalism is impersonal, is unintelligent, and has no intended ultimate end. In contrast, God’s sovereign determination of his decree is the personal act of the God who is perfect wisdom, omniscience, justice, love, and grace.
Whereas the subsequent conclusions you come to are drawn upon a false premise, they too a unsubstantiated.


Entertaining conflation.



Agreed



The first statement is true. "Independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love" is a false statement. Anyone who has salvific faith will be saved, anyone who has salvific faith loves God. Eze. 11:19-20



Agreed. No one is saved by works, so "living well or badly" is irrelevant.



God does take pleasure in the wicked. Psalm 5:3 “He hath no pleasure in wickedness.”
I would love to see the quote from Calvin that you are promoting; though I defend the bible and not people.
Bet you can't find the quote.


This is false. Only those that are saved love God. Only those who are saved obey God (not perfectly) ALL those that love God will all be saved, even Calvinists *giggles*. John 14:24 One who does not [really] love Me does not keep My words. 1 John 4:19 We love because He first loved us. .... those God doesn't love, don't love him (sin nature).


This is a false dichotomy. No one that hates God is in heaven. Please provide a verse for the crazy notion. Ridiculous.
Consider the following hypothetical situation: "Well Lord, what I am doing in heaven? Don't you know I HATE you?" .... "you are here because I chose you". LOL, ridiculous logic.
Giggles .... could you provide your estimate of the percentage of people in heaven that HATE GOD ... LOL

my pastor uses the verse ,

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires men to repent .

quotes it often ,I was surprised and asked he said you don't understand Calvinism if you think other wise .both him,and elder said that to me

 

[Walpole]

A false statement ... probably from a misunderstanding of the definition of fatalism.
Fatalism is impersonal, is unintelligent, and has no intended ultimate end. In contrast, God’s sovereign determination of his decree is the personal act of the God who is perfect wisdom, omniscience, justice, love, and grace.
Whereas the subsequent conclusions you come to are drawn upon a false premise, they too a unsubstantiated.


Entertaining conflation.



Agreed



The first statement is true. "Independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love" is a false statement. Anyone who has salvific faith will be saved, anyone who has salvific faith loves God. Eze. 11:19-20



Agreed. No one is saved by works, so "living well or badly" is irrelevant.



God does take pleasure in the wicked. Psalm 5:3 “He hath no pleasure in wickedness.”
I would love to see the quote from Calvin that you are promoting; though I defend the bible and not people.
Bet you can't find the quote.


This is false. Only those that are saved love God. Only those who are saved obey God (not perfectly) ALL those that love God will all be saved, even Calvinists *giggles*. John 14:24 One who does not [really] love Me does not keep My words. 1 John 4:19 We love because He first loved us. .... those God doesn't love, don't love him (sin nature).


This is a false dichotomy. No one that hates God is in heaven. Please provide a verse for the crazy notion. Ridiculous.
Consider the following hypothetical situation: "Well Lord, what I am doing in heaven? Don't you know I HATE you?" .... "you are here because I chose you". LOL, ridiculous logic.
Giggles .... could you provide your estimate of the percentage of people in heaven that HATE GOD ... LOL

By fatalism it is meant that God actually creates some for the sole purpose in taking pleasure in their destruction. In other words, He dooms them from the womb for destruction and they are created for this sole purpose. For example...

“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes, 3.23.6)

“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” (Ibid, 3.21.5)

“We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.” (Ibid, 3:21.6)


Calvin even taught his God actually tricks and deceives people by illumining their minds into thinking they are elect, only to pull the rug out from under them in the end...

“Nor do I even deny that God illumines their [reprobates] minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy.” (Institutes, 3.2.11)


This God is a devil.

 

[jasonc]

since it was said outliers

in 1620.

the puritans they were full fledged Calvinists ,these later on,started Princeton ,William and Mary and also Harvard to teach bible to read and to study the bible .

thanksgiving is now a problem until the founding of savannah ,no,arminist church in,America existed ,

all others were reformed .the only option to be Catholic was to travek to Georgia and or hide it .

lutherans are a minority at this time and likely came later with the few Germans ,the Dutch were Quakers or mennonites and well you guess reformed ,the huguenots were reformed as is Anabaptist .

 

[Walpole]

since it was said outliers

in 1620.

the puritans they were full fledged Calvinists ,these later on,started Princeton ,William and Mary and also Harvard to teach bible to read and to study the bible .

thanksgiving is now a problem until the founding of savannah ,no,arminist church in,America existed ,

all others were reformed .the only option to be Catholic was to travek to Georgia and or hide it .

lutherans are a minority at this time and likely came later with the few Germans ,the Dutch were Quakers or mennonites and well you guess reformed ,the huguenots were reformed as is Anabaptist .

“To a Calvinist the most important thing was Calvinism; to a Puritan the most important thing was the Puritan creed; and this in itself certainly did not favor the vague sentiments either of emancipation or fraternity. Calvinism took away a man's liberty in the universe; why, then, should it favor his liberty in the State? Puritans denied free will; why should they be likely to affirm free speech? Why should the Calvinists object to an aristocracy? The Calvinists were an aristocracy; they were the most arrogant and awful of aristocracies by the nature of their own belief; they were the elect. Why should the Puritans dislike a baby being born a nobleman or a gentleman? It was their whole philosophy that a baby is born a celestial nobleman; that he is at birth and before birth a member of the cosmic upper classes. It should have been a small matter for the Puritans to admit that one might be born a king; seeing that they maintained the much more paradoxical position that one might be born a saint. Nor is it easy to see why upon their own ideal principles the Puritan should have disliked despotism or arbitrary power; though it is certainly much more the fact that they did dislike despotism than that they did dislike oligarchy. The first conception of Calvinism is a fierce insistence on the utterly arbitrary nature of power. The King of the Cavaliers was certainly not so purely willful, so sublimely capricious a sultan, as the God of the Puritans.” - G.K. Chesterton, Milton: Man and Poet

 

[Walpole]

“Calvinism held that God had indeed made the world, but in a special sense, made the evil as well as the good: had made an evil will as well as an evil world. On this view, if a man chooses to damn his soul alive, he is not thwarting God's will but rather fulfilling it. In these two forms, of the early Gnosticism and the later Calvinism, we see the superficial variety and fundamental unity of Manicheanism. The old Manicheans taught that Satan originated the whole work of creation commonly attributed to God. The new Calvinists taught that God originates the whole work of damnation commonly attributed to Satan. One looked back to the first day when a devil acted like a god, the other looked forward to a last day when a god acted like a devil. But both had the idea that the creator of the earth was primarily the creator of the evil, whether we call him a devil or a god.” - G.K. Chesterton, St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[jasonc]

“To a Calvinist the most important thing was Calvinism; to a Puritan the most important thing was the Puritan creed; and this in itself certainly did not favor the vague sentiments either of emancipation or fraternity. Calvinism took away a man's liberty in the universe; why, then, should it favor his liberty in the State? Puritans denied free will; why should they be likely to affirm free speech? Why should the Calvinists object to an aristocracy? The Calvinists were an aristocracy; they were the most arrogant and awful of aristocracies by the nature of their own belief; they were the elect. Why should the Puritans dislike a baby being born a nobleman or a gentleman? It was their whole philosophy that a baby is born a celestial nobleman; that he is at birth and before birth a member of the cosmic upper classes. It should have been a small matter for the Puritans to admit that one might be born a king; seeing that they maintained the much more paradoxical position that one might be born a saint. Nor is it easy to see why upon their own ideal principles the Puritan should have disliked despotism or arbitrary power; though it is certainly much more the fact that they did dislike despotism than that they did dislike oligarchy. The first conception of Calvinism is a fierce insistence on the utterly arbitrary nature of power. The King of the Cavaliers was certainly not so purely willful, so sublimely capricious a sultan, as the God of the Puritans.” - G.K. Chesterton, Milton: Man and Poet

my point here is that they were reformed .

Luther hated jews ,

im sure the cathtopics were so pure and holy that its a lie the Seminoles and other tribes to call it,the white mans religion

 

[Hopeful]

It's always just a matter of time before Calvinists post their favorite verse trying to prove how their God acts with pure will.

RE: Romans 9:21-22...

First, no professional potter would waste his time, effort, or money intentionally making defective pottery. Only a fool would believe otherwise. Secondly, Calvinists always fail to post the verses from Jeremiah, which St. Paul is referencing...

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.


This is actually REFUTING Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election as God tells the nation that IF they return from their evil ways and follow His law and repent, that He will not destroy them. Likewise, if God has spoken to build up a nation, if they do evil in his sight, he will turn from them and destroy them.

St. Paul uses this reference to Jeremiah 18 to explain to the Jews in Romans 9 why God was rejecting them as a nation and going to the Gentiles: Because the Jews refused to believe in Jesus Christ, while the Gentiles were choosing to believe the gospel. This shows God's election is according to faith; He chooses those who believe on Christ, and rejects those who do not.

Calvinism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity as Christianity teaches salvation is available to ALL MEN through Jesus Christ. (cf. John 1:12; Romans 1:16) Calvinism says salvation is offered only to those God chose to be elect. Nothing you can do can change God's mind if you were made to be pulpwood for Calvin's God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed. Salvation in Calvinism is a coin flip.

In fact, not "offered" at all.
They had no choice.
I'm with you on this topic.

 

[JLB]

You seem to have become part of the problem here of TRASH" talking other's opinions, instead of being part of the solution of making this forum more loving and receptive, and a better place to be than other hateful forums.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Just remember that Calvinism is the outlier and that they are a fringe group. The majority of Christianity does not believe in the doctrines of Calvin.

Enjoy...

Oh my gosh.
It's so funny...
if it just wouldn't be so sad.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's always just a matter of time before Calvinists post their favorite verse trying to prove how their God acts with pure will.

RE: Romans 9:21-22...

First, no professional potter would waste his time, effort, or money intentionally making defective pottery. Only a fool would believe otherwise. Secondly, Calvinists always fail to post the verses from Jeremiah, which St. Paul is referencing...

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.


This is actually REFUTING Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election as God tells the nation that IF they return from their evil ways and follow His law and repent, that He will not destroy them. Likewise, if God has spoken to build up a nation, if they do evil in his sight, he will turn from them and destroy them.

St. Paul uses this reference to Jeremiah 18 to explain to the Jews in Romans 9 why God was rejecting them as a nation and going to the Gentiles: Because the Jews refused to believe in Jesus Christ, while the Gentiles were choosing to believe the gospel. This shows God's election is according to faith; He chooses those who believe on Christ, and rejects those who do not.

Calvinism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity as Christianity teaches salvation is available to ALL MEN through Jesus Christ. (cf. John 1:12; Romans 1:16) Calvinism says salvation is offered only to those God chose to be elect. Nothing you can do can change God's mind if you were made to be pulpwood for Calvin's God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed. Salvation in Calvinism is a coin flip.

Great post Walpole....
Problem is that Romans 9 is taught as individual salvation in calvinism
and not as corporate salvation....
Paul is speaking of the Jews and how God is letting in the Gentiles.
Not about individual salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

You failed to highlight "endured with much suffering" as though that didn't play into the picture.
Or do you just pick parts of passages to suit your needs?
Endured with much suffering means he waited for them to turn from their wicked ways.
And when they didn't, God used them for something else.
Just as in the days of Noah, as he built the ark, God waited with long suffering that no one else would turn to God.
1 Peter 3:20;

That gives a different meaning then the one you present to suit your purposes.

The above was for another poster, but I agree totally.
Great point.
Paul wasn't even speaking about individual salvation but about the nation of Israel.
He was comparing the Jews and the Gentiles and how God was allowing the Gentiles
into His covenant (with Abraham and also Isaac).

 

[GodsGrace]

Very well put, thank.
Thank you wondering for being respectful.

You also are very respectful which is why I enjoy speaking to you.

I've discussed calvinism with some that show true hatred of the other
side. In fact, it's impossible to even get to ideas because of their hatred.

So, yes, it's a relief to speak to a calm person.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I highlighted the whole passage. God does endure them with longsuffering, and during that time they are multiplying the sins they will be punished for.

Look at post #218.
You did not highlight it.
Now you are trying to change your mind.
You are not someone to listen to.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The above was for another poster, but I agree totally.
Great point.
Paul wasn't even speaking about individual salvation but about the nation of Israel.
He was comparing the Jews and the Gentiles and how God was allowing the Gentiles
into His covenant (with Abraham and also Isaac).

No, actually, this is a general thread where anyone can respond to anything written.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Apostles are members of the Body of Christ. All the members are of One Body. Granted all are not Apostles but all have a function in the body and ministry, and the Spirit calls all into service and salvation. The whole Body is Chosen.

In John 16 Jesus is speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Apostles.
Also, in Matthew 28:19 Jesus is speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Apostles.
Jesus tells them that they are to go out and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Can YOU baptize a person?
No. Because Jesus spoke to a certain group to whom He gave this authority...
He did NOT give it to us...His disciples.

The Body of Christ is made up of believers.
NOWHERE does it say these believers were chosen by God.

Can you post a verse where it says this?