IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[JLB]

in not saying other wise isn't but seriously you cant assume you,are 100 perecebt correct if there's is no one above you .

I never said we don’t submit to our Pastors, or that we don’t need teachers. However, we must discern if the teachers are teaching true or false doctrine.

When we stand before our Lord, on that Day, we will have no excuse, no one to blame if we have allowed our children, our wives to be led astray by false teachers.


Its up to us to be grounded in His word, and be led by His Spirit.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Predestined to conform to the image of Christ

Amen!

 

[JLB]

Predestined to conform to the image of Christ which is Salvation.

Here’s how we will achieve God’s desire in this matter.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11


again


Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21


again



Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1



We must heed the words of our Lord, and be diligent to remain in Christ, otherwise how can we grow up into Him, if we are removed from Him.




“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...
John 15:1-2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6




Here’s how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would God not predestine some? LOL

A mother aborts her baby.
Did the baby control its presence in heaven or hell ? (Surely not)

Did the mother control the babies presence in heaven or hell ? Did the mother control her decision to abort? Was it "libertarian free will" that determined the abortion ( the ability to chose "A" or "B" given the same circumstances)

Did the God predestine the babies presence in heaven or hell ? Does God have "libertarian free will" ( the ability to chose "A" or "B" given the same circumstances)? Do you answer that question based on man have "libertarian free will" and being made in God's image? Is God's plan dependent upon man's decisions and thus man controls God to some degree? How is God glorified (I share my glory with no one) by man's "libertarian free will" that controls whether or no God adopts him as a son? How is the adoption analogy applicable given adopt is the decision of the parent, yet in salvation via "libertarian free will" the child controls the process?

What decisions are controlled by "libertarian free will"?
What is the ultimate (first) cause of "libertarian free will"? Is it uncaused and thus eternal?

Aside: I love it when men think they determine their destiny.

I believe God predestined some.
I had a reason for my question to the other poster.
I believe God chose Mary.

All the rest of what you said I didn't read because you keep using
examples instead of scripture.

If you cut it down to specific question, I'll be happy to answer, but
provide some verses please.

 

[GodsGrace]

The bible is not well organized in regards to topics and that leads to confusion. It also does not explain everything Deut 29:29.

Example: It was only after I read something in which someone took the time to put all the verses about prayer together did I have a clue what was meant by: "If you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain". Since I couldn't move a mountain, I assumed I didn't even have the faith of a mustard seed.

You're talking about systematic theology.
This is helpful when learning about one particular subject matter.
But, even here, the bible we use might influence our final decision.
For instance, the NIV is a bible that teaches OSAS in the footnotes.
(if I remember correctly - )

This is why I pefer to read the actual biblical texts and come to my
own conclusion. This is one way that God speaks to us.

I'm not against systematic theology and find that it's necessary at times
to consult this method. I also use the NIV BTW, nothing against it, if this
is the bible someone likes - as long as the scripture is read first.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't it time to move on????

LOL
NO!
This is an important topic....
Whoever doesn't care to post doesn't have to.
God gave us free will so we could either post or not post.
LOL

 

[JLB]

I believe God chose Mary.

Amen.

Mary was chosen for a purpose, to be the mother of Jesus Christ.




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Here’s how we will achieve God’s desire in this matter.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11


again


Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21


again



Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1



We must heed the words of our Lord, and be diligent to remain in Christ, otherwise how can we grow up into Him, if we are removed from Him.




“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...
John 15:1-2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6




Here’s how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

They have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. So God has undertaken to work for them and in them to fulfil His Own Purpose. Phil 2:13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Walpole]

God's predestination incorporates His foreknowledge of people's choices. God foresees all who will be saved, and these are the elect (Romans 8:28-30). God doesn't "look into the future", as eternity is immediately present to Him.

Likewise, God does not predestine anyone to hell either. Rather, He passively allows what He knows they will choose by their own free will.

Calvinism, like Islam, believes God is a fatalist. As such, Calvinism holds man is determined to heaven or hell, independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love. As God decreed, so his destiny was fixed, regardless of whether he lived well or badly. In other words, if God created you to be pulpwood to take pleasure in seeing destroyed (yes, Calvin actually taught that!), you are going to burn regardless of how much you love God. Conversely, if God created you to be in heaven, you are going regardless of whether you actually hate God. Kicking and screaming, you're going. Under such a fatalism, man is not free to be a saint or to be a devil. God made him what he is, not himself. It's all God's fault. Like in Islam, this God acts with pure will.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

God's predestination incorporates His foreknowledge of people's choices. God foresees all who will be saved, and these are the elect (Romans 8:28-30). God doesn't "look into the future", as eternity is immediately present to Him.

Likewise, God does not predestine anyone to hell either. Rather, He passively allows what He knows they will choose by their own free will.

Calvinism, like Islam, believes God is a fatalist. As such, Calvinism holds man is determined to heaven or hell, independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love. As God decreed, so his destiny was fixed, regardless of whether he lived well or badly. In other words, if God created you to be pulpwood to take pleasure in seeing destroyed (yes, Calvin actually taught that!), you are going to burn regardless of how much you love God. Conversely, if God created you to be in heaven, you are going regardless of whether you actually hate God. Kicking and screaming, you're going. Under such a fatalism, man is not free to be a saint or to be a devil. God made him what he is, not himself. It's all God's fault. Like in Islam, this God acts with pure will.

PERFECT !!!!!!!
Amazing how the truth can be spoken in such FEW WORDS ?.

 

[JLB]

In other words, if God created you to be pulpwood to take pleasure in seeing destroyed (yes, Calvin actually taught that!), you are going to burn regardless of how much you love God. Conversely, if God created you to be in heaven, you are going regardless of whether you actually hate God. Kicking and screaming, you're going. Under such a fatalism, man is not free to be a saint or to be a devil. God made him what he is, not himself. It's all God's fault. Like in Islam, this God acts with pure will.

It’s sad people not only believe this, but spread it in our churches. Feeding it to hungry new Christians as Truth.


I feel sorry for those who push this trash as doctrine.




JLB

 

[jasonc]

no worse then the speak it and believe for healing ,then the person dies or isn't healed and told lack of faith .

despite Tommorow isn't promised

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I feel sorry for those who push this trash as doctrine.




JLB

For your eyes for_his_glory .

WOW JLB
I thought this was a place where differences of opinions mattered and were tolerated with love and kindness.
stovebolts said he didn't want to close this topic down as he wanted to see people learn to disagree and still be accepting of what others think even if they can't agree, but disagree in love.

Is calling someone's opinion here "trash" talk how "Administration" sets the standard?

I happen to agree with Walpole. Is my opinion "TRASH here too??

You seem to have become part of the problem here of TRASH" talking other's opinions, instead of being part of the solution of making this forum more loving and receptive, and a better place to be than other hateful forums.

 

[Walpole]

Amen.

Mary was chosen for a purpose, to be the mother of Jesus Christ.




JLB

We must be careful here. Mary was chosen, prophesied and even had several types / figures in the Old Testament. However, we must be careful so as to not believe Mary was forced in any way. To believe she had no choice would render God a rapist.

God does not act with pure will. That is a Calvinist / Islamic version of God. Rather, He is the God of Logos. Let me give an example contrasting the Calvinist / Islamic version of God with the Logos by contrasting the encounter between the Christian version of the Archangel Gabriel with the Virgin Mary to that of the Muslim encounter between the Archangel Gabriel and Mohammed. In the Islamic version, Mohammed feels a crushing, overwhelming and terrifying power that eventually commands him. He is commanded to begin reciting. (Koran means "the recitation.") He has no choice: recite or be crushed. God acted with pure will, forcing himself upon man.

By contrast, we have the Christian story of the Archangel's encounter with the Virgin Mary. The Archangel appears to Mary and addresses her not by her name, but rather by a title. ("Full of grace.") He then allows Mary to ask a question, "How can this be?" Mary brings Gabriel's message under consideration and only when he satisfies her reason does she give her consent, her fiat voluntatis. Mary's rational faculties are not suspended. She is not forced. She is not raped. Rather, she is fully engaged as a rational human being and offers her consent (her positive act of her will / her free will).

"And Mary said, 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.' And the angel departed from her." (Luke 1:38)

 

[Fastfredy0]

You seem to have become part of the problem here of TRASH" talking others, instead of being part of the solution of making this forum more loving and receptive, and a better place to be than other hateful forums.

Very well put, thank.
Thank you wondering for being respectful.

 

[Walpole]

It’s sad people not only believe this, but spread it in our churches. Feeding it to hungry new Christians as Truth.


I feel sorry for those who push this trash as doctrine.




JLB

Just remember that Calvinism is the outlier and that they are a fringe group. The majority of Christianity does not believe in the doctrines of Calvin.

Enjoy...

 

[brightfame52]

walpole

God's predestination incorporates His foreknowledge of people's choices.

Scripture doesnt say that.

 

[brightfame52]

walpole

Likewise, God does not predestine anyone to hell either. Rather, He passively allows what He knows they will choose by their own free will.

God created some people as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Thats Pauls point in Rom 9:21-22

1 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make[create] one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[JLB]

I happen to agree with @Walpole. Is my opinion "TRASH here too??

I totally agree with Walpole.

I think you misunderstand.

To believe she had no choice would render God a rapist.

Yes sir, I agree.

To me, people who push this kind of teaching, insinuating that God is a rapist or that God forces people to sin, is trash (not profitable) in my opinion.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Calvinism, like Islam, believes God is a fatalist.

A false statement ... probably from a misunderstanding of the definition of fatalism.
Fatalism is impersonal, is unintelligent, and has no intended ultimate end. In contrast, God’s sovereign determination of his decree is the personal act of the God who is perfect wisdom, omniscience, justice, love, and grace.
Whereas the subsequent conclusions you come to are drawn upon a false premise, they too a unsubstantiated.

Calvinism, like Islam, believes

Entertaining conflation.

Likewise, God does not predestine anyone to hell either. Rather, He passively allows what He knows they will choose by their own free will.

Agreed

As such, Calvinism holds man is determined to heaven or hell, independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love.

The first statement is true. "Independent of any choice man makes to believe, have faith and love" is a false statement. Anyone who has salvific faith will be saved, anyone who has salvific faith loves God. Eze. 11:19-20

As God decreed, so his destiny was fixed, regardless of whether he lived well or badly.

Agreed. No one is saved by works, so "living well or badly" is irrelevant.

if God created you to be pulpwood to take pleasure in seeing destroyed (yes, Calvin actually taught that!),

God does take pleasure in the wicked. Psalm 5:3 “He hath no pleasure in wickedness.”
I would love to see the quote from Calvin that you are promoting; though I defend the bible and not people.
Bet you can't find the quote.

you are going to burn regardless of how much you love God.

This is false. Only those that are saved love God. Only those who are saved obey God (not perfectly) ALL those that love God will all be saved, even Calvinists *giggles*. John 14:24 One who does not [really] love Me does not keep My words. 1 John 4:19 We love because He first loved us. .... those God doesn't love, don't love him (sin nature).

Conversely, if God created you to be in heaven, you are going regardless of whether you actually hate God.

This is a false dichotomy. No one that hates God is in heaven. Please provide a verse for the crazy notion. Ridiculous.
Consider the following hypothetical situation: "Well Lord, what I am doing in heaven? Don't you know I HATE you?" .... "you are here because I chose you". LOL, ridiculous logic.
Giggles .... could you provide your estimate of the percentage of people in heaven that HATE GOD ... LOL