IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[JLB]

seriously ,i had a route ,I spukd photo the 100 year old churches on,it or 80 year old that all were pentacostal ,In 10 minutes from smiths grocery where I started i passed three of them.

others on the fpl side existed . yet somehow these say the Holy Ghost lead me to be this way and most if not all are black majority churches on that street .I didn't count the church before I got there who is also that way .nor the others 4 across from that street on another route that are not all charismatic but a few are .

gifford,more. churche's then stores and still has crime and drugs and murder .

those one man or woman shows can't all be right ,or led .

What does this have to do with growing up in Christ, and learning to feed ourselves from His word?




JLB

 

[jasonc]

What does this have to do with growing up in Christ, and learning to feed ourselves from His word?




JLB

plenty ,you said if they just taught themselves after praying .these churches fold upon the death of their pastors .as they own the lot and building

if it was that simplr we would have 100 percent agreement we would have charismatic churches who are one ness.
who are preach you,must have the Spirit ,speaking in tongues to be saved ,all would be in unison

https://jasoncran.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F640332905785245696

mother church too.

https://jasoncran.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F640331577088507904

pastor bought,that house and is his own church flavor .

yes he was ordained by the parent church .and one other.

having vistied these for a traveling worship team I know some of them.
accountability isn't quite there .I do find old tax assentment photos of a church that is no more in Gifford .

these are often low english speakers and barely literate . while God isn't limited by that at all .their is still division in that three of them are like that and next to each other !

 

[jasonc]

What does this have to do with growing up in Christ, and learning to feed ourselves from His word?




JLB

why have pastors and teachers and evangelists if all can teach themselves ?

where does it say to not to
build a theology school to equip pastors and any one

apologetics ,
witnessesing
and to be able to teach
the early original tongues .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Calvinists see God's sovereignty as determining human will,

Agreed. We believe God is the only entity of intrinsic worth and all things should revolve around His will, His glory and His pleasure.

whereas Christianity sees God's sovereignty as incorporating human will (through infallible foreknowledge).

Well, the statement has a contradiction because Calvinist's are Christ so contradictory premises about Calvinist is irrational. That being said ... yes, a majority of Christians elevate the will of humans above God's will in that they believe they control which individuals the Father will adopt. Yes, these Christians IMO minimize the sovereignty of God. They leave God without a Will to choose among all the objects within his view? In short, it seems to make the blessed God a sort of Almighty Minister of Fate, under its universal and supreme influence; as it was the professed sentiment of some of the ancients, that Fate was above the gods.

Calvinists are a fringe sect of Christianity. They are the outliers.

AH, the blessings to be among God's remnant. Actually, Roman Catholic's outnumber protestants at the current time. Assuming you are a protestant, that mean you also are 'a fringe sect of Christianity, an outliers.

If the Calvinists are correct, then salvation is nothing more than an arbitrary act by a God who acts with pure will (much like the Islamic understanding of God). Salvation in Calvinism thus becomes the ultimate cosmic Power Ball drawing, where God does the drawing.

This is a conclusion based on ill founded (if any) premises and no evidential observations.
Calvinists do not believe the all knowing God relies on chance. Calvinists don't believe in chance as chance is the expression of weak human minds that are unable to comprehend the thoughts of God who is the first cause of all things.
"Libertarian free will" on the other hand is the "ability of humans to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias." "Libertarian free will" is amoral for it is indifferent. It can decide to do "A" or "B" in the same circumstance. Those who hold to this doctrine believe people choose God from "indifference" (choosing "A" or "B" without any outside influence) should be rewarded with eternal life. They believe that when people were NOTHING, God looked at NOTHING and determined what NOTHING would do. As NOTHING is NO THING, even God cannot tell what NO THING will do, only what SOMETHING will do and only if He is the cause of that SOMETHING. (To look into the future to see what NOTHING will do would mean an ALL KNOWING God would learn from NOTHING .. that His knowledge would increase. If God knowledge increased then He would not be immutable for He would know more at one time than another) .... but I digress.

 

[jasonc]

charismatics are not immune to following a particular pastor or to travel miles to get a healing or word of prophecy outside of their own churches .

I had a pastor preach on that and he said we can pray for your healing here and also for words of knowledge ,local church is for that ,he wasn't against revivals etc or big tent meetings

 

[Fastfredy0]

I said: Read a couple systematic theology books and you will become "spiritually advanced".

No you won’t. Just the opposite. Your advancement will be hindered. You will continue to live on milk.

This statement is not rational. For example, it implies seminary is a waste of time. It implies sermons, Sunday school are a waste of time. It disregards scripture which say God gives certain individuals the gift of teaching. What good is a gift of teaching if one doesn't teach. This is what Systematic Theology books, seminary and physical churches do, granted not perfectly.
This contradicts scripture:
Proverbs 11:14 Without counsels do a people fall, And deliverance [is] in a multitude of counsellors.
Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established.

The idea the God hasn't given men the task to teach (the Great commission); this logic reputes the formation of the Bible. Specifically, the English bible was dependent upon men to both create the canon and to translate the original language into English. (Aside: those things being guided by God) So, you would have no Bible to read were it not for men guided by God which JLB now says has no worth.

How are those with weak minds suppose to learn of God? How are children suppose to know the truth? Do we wait till they can read? Surely not. Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

This is why the Church is so divided, because they follow the teachings of man.

To assume that if you put 100 people into a room and they only had access to a Bible and no other theological training ... that outcome would be unanimity if incredulous.
Acts 8:26 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Note: Phillip didn't say, "Well, I can't help you ... read it for yourself and "Ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you."

Spiritual babes follow the teachings of man.

I am not saying teachers do not make errors. There are false teachers. But teachers are beneficial. Be like the Bereans and check the Scripture to validate what is said. Read 5 Systematic Theology books and compare. Books like this are built on ten of thousands of man hours of biblical study that no one person could do. (Well, maybe 1 person in 1,000,000 ... I suppose Augustine

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jesus' instructions...

"seek and ye shall find"
"believe"
"have faith"
"love"
"forgive"
"do ye likewise"
"choose"
“follow me”

These are all things one does. In other words, they are a positive act of the will. If man does not have a free will, these instructions of Jesus would all be superfluous and useless.

Agreed. These are things man does if guided by God to do so. Man, of his free will, is caused to desire to do these things by God.

What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not even capable of doing?

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not”.
Note: God is asking children to do something they are not even capable of doing.
Having demonstrated that God ask people to do the impossible, I will let Walpole answer his rhetorical? question. Tell us, what kind of God would ask children to SIN NOT?

God does not stuff his hand up our shirts like puppets. He doesn't need to move your pieces to beat you at checkers.

Agreed

 

[daninthelionsden]

My simple mind sees a paradox/dilemma where man uses scales balanced on the flesh. These are scales where on one side obedience is countered by disobedience. Man is constantly taking a chance to see what he can get away with so he has his fleshly thumb on this scale.
God's scale is balanced on the Cross and His scales are grace on one side with obedience on the other. His thumb is on His scale granting one/demanding the other at His will.
Our scale is crumbling/dying so we'll have to jump ship. Do we really have free will or not? He calls on us to jump ship while still alive. Trust? Will He catch us? He knows who will jump and who will not, but does/did He pick who jumps/ed? We will know after our personal scales crumble. We were MADE to love Him.
I know these are just the words of a fool, but I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame....
You love John 15:16 because it says "but I have chosen you".
Unfortunately, it is speaking about the 12 Apostles, but you refuse to believe this.
Perhaps you could read some commentaries?

Here are some:

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.—Comp. Luke 6:12 et seq., and in this Gospel John 6:70; John 13:18. The thought of His love for them, which had exalted them from the position of slaves to friends, from fishermen to Apostles, is made to remind them again (John 15:17) of the duty of love to each other. In John 15:20 he reminds them of the words which accompanied His own act of humility in washing their feet (John 13:15-16). The chiefest Apostle owed all to His gift and election, and should be ready to sacrifice all for his brethren, as He Himself was.
And ordained you.—The word “ordained” has acquired a special sense in modern English which is here misleading, and it will be better, therefore, to read appointed.

That ye should go and bring forth fruit.—Comp. Matthew 13:44; Matthew 18:15; Matthew 19:21, for the idea of going away and doing something. It implies here the activity of the Apostles as distinct from that of Christ. Each one as a branch ever joined to Christ was to grow away from Him in the development of his own work, and was to bring forth his own fruit. The margin compares Matthew 28:19, probably, with the thought of their fulfilling the Apostle’s missionary work. This view has been commonly adopted, but it gives to the word “go’” a fulness of meaning which is scarcely warranted.


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ye have not chosen me - The word here translated "chosen" is that from which is derived the word "elect," and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mark 13:20; Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31; Colossians 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See John 6:70; also Matthew 4:18-22. He thus shows them that his love for them was pure and disinterested; that it commenced when they had no affection for him; that it was not a matter of obligation on his part, and that therefore it placed them under more tender and sacred obligations to be entirely devoted to his service. The same may be said of all who are endowed with talents of any kind, or raised to any office in the church or the state. It is not that they have originated these talents, or laid God under obligation. What they have they owe to his sovereign goodness, and they are bound to devote all to his service. Equally true is this of all Christians. It was not that by nature they were more inclined than others to seek God, or that they had any native goodness to recommend them to him, but it was because he graciously inclined them by his Holy Spirit to seek him; because, in the language of the Episcopal and Methodist articles of religion, "The grace of Christ prevented them;" that is, went before them, commenced the work of their personal salvation, and thus God in sovereign mercy chose them as His own. Whatever Christians, then, possess, they owe to God, and by the most tender and sacred ties they are bound to be his followers.
I have chosen you - To be apostles. Yet all whom he now addressed were true disciples. Judas had left them; and when Jesus says he had chosen them to bear fruit, it may mean, also, that he had "chosen them to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Ordained you - Literally, I have placed you, appointed you, set you apart. It does not mean that he had done this by any formal public act of the imposition of hands, as we now use the word, but that he had designated or appointed them to this work, Luke 6:13-16; Matthew 10:2-5.

Bring forth fruit - That you should be rich in good works; faithful and successful in spreading my gospel. This was the great business to which they were set apart, and this they faithfully accomplished. It may be added that this is the great end for which Christians are chosen. It is not to be idle, or useless, or simply to seek enjoyment. It is to do good, and to spread as far as possible the rich temporal and spiritual blessings which the gospel is fitted to confer on mankind.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to.
ordained—appointed.

you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit—that is, give yourselves to it.

and that your fruit should remain—showing itself to be an imperishable and ever growing principle. (Compare Pr 4:18; 2Jo 8).

that whatsoever ye shall ask, &c.—(See on [1859]Joh 15:7).

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Ye have not chosen me to be your Lord, Master, Saviour,

but I have chosen and ordained you; so we have it in our translation; but the Greek is, eyhka, I have set you, or placed you in a station. What choosing Christ here speaks of is doubted amongst various divines. Some think that our Saviour here speaks of his choice of them to the apostleship, as Luke 6:13 John 6:70: those who thus understand it, understand by going and bringing forth fruit, the apostles’ going out, preaching, and baptizing all nations, bringing forth fruit amongst the Gentiles. But others understand it of election to eternal life, and the means necessary to it; for our Saviour brings this as an argument of his greatest love: Judas was in the first sense chosen, yet not beloved with any such love: and this seemeth to be favoured by John 13:18, I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: and certain it is, Augustine and others of the ancients from hence proved the freedom of election and special grace. Both senses may be united, for the eleven (to whom Christ was now speaking) were chosen in both senses; they were chosen for this end, to bring forth fruit amongst the Gentiles, turning many to righteousness, and that they might bring forth the fruit of holiness, in obedience to the gospel of Christ. Yea, not only to bring forth fruit, but that they might persevere in bringing forth fruit; and that thus doing, they might have a freedom of access to the throne of grace, and obtain whatsoever they should ask of the Father, in the name, for the merits, and through the mediation of the Lord Jesus Christ. See Poole on "John 14:13". See Poole on "John 14:14".


There's much more here:

John 15:16 Commentaries: "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

biblehub.com

You may also want to pay attention to what ORDAINED means...

The Apostles are members of the Body of Christ. All the members are of One Body. Granted all are not Apostles but all have a function in the body and ministry, and the Spirit calls all into service and salvation. The whole Body is Chosen.

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame...
You cannot pluck verses out of the bible.
Here is what the verse you are referring to means:

Romans 8:30
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Unfortunately you forgot to read what comes before this popular verse.
As you know, context is everything when reading any statement.

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And we find in verse 29, the key to the entire passage.
Those whom God FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED .... for what?
God predestined them to become CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

And those whom God foreknew
He also predestined ....
He called to become conformed
He also justified for salvation
and, eventually, those that are justified will also be glorified.

Please exegete a verse and do not bring presuppositions to it.

God predestined HOW a person would become saved...
Not WHO would become saved.
The invitation is open to all.
1 Timothy 2:4
God desires ALL MEN to be saved.
Not all men WANT to be saved...,

thus we know we have free will.

Predestined is in the scripture.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I know these are just the words of a fool, but I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.

I am not sure what you are asking. I often use gotquestions.org if I have a question. Usually they have an answer. For example, the other day I looked up the question: What happens to people that do not hear the gospel.
The site gave a list of titles they thought might answer the question. Click on an title that seems to fit and they will give their take on your question. They are good to give scripture references.

I asked: what is the winning lottery number ... just now. They didn't have what I wanted. One title was: What Does the Bible say about Gambling.

 

[JLB]

plenty ,you said if they just taught themselves after praying .these churches fold upon the death of their pastors .as they own the lot and building

Because they are people who are codependent on somebody to spoon feed them.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Predestined is in the scripture.

Predestined for purpose.



JLB

 

[jasonc]

Because they are people who are codependent on somebody to spoon feed them.



JLB

you are on you own pastor? ,church? .
local one man churches have no one to replace the pastor .

or th pastor goes south ,since he or she owns the land the members simply have no legal authority to remove him and leave to start another or join another .

no church is immune to corruption but at least if my pastor is removed for what ever reason ,we can keep the building .the church I attend had to search for a pastor .

pastor do more then teach ,they direct all ministries ,they also have the vision to guide the church .

since you are charismatic ,then you,must know the rule of three prophets who say the same ,I have been told I have this calling in,that matter .I have my doubts but yes I have been told and these didn't know each other .

my pastor to birth his sermon(my words).will loose sleep for two days and have peace after the service . no one who is called ,wants it ,they run ,hide and God breaks them and they submit .I know pastors who were homeless and then repented and God pulled them out of homelessness and they were a pastor in a short time .

sure a pastor isn't your source ,but well they are over you and guide you and are called to be over you .they die,retire or fall it will shake you .

 

[JLB]

This statement is not rational. For example, it implies seminary is a waste of time.

Most are. Nothing but a waste of time, teaching the commandments and doctrines of man, and ignoring the doctrine of Christ.


Most people call them cemeteries.


JLB

 

[jasonc]

in charismatic circles ,that is said but of them not large demonotions such aog,cog,cma,Calvary chapel ,though the later two are closer to each other in how that the speaking of tongues are in private ,the former preach it church .

 

[JLB]

you are on you own pastor? ,church? .

I am certainly the church; a member of the body of Christ, just as you are.


I certainly don’t rely on my Pastor to provide me with everything the Bible teaches.


Here’s a scripture for you to consider.


Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15


How can I take responsibility for my family to know if the Church I’m in, is teaching the truth or false doctrine if I don’t know myself?


But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8




JLB

 

[JLB]

This statement is not rational. For example, it implies seminary is a waste of time. It implies sermons, Sunday school are a waste of time. It disregards scripture which say God gives certain individuals the gift of teaching. What good is a gift of teaching if one doesn't teach.

If they are teaching the the truth from the scriptures, then it’s all great.


If they are teaching from other men’s books and commentaries, providing a mixture of false doctrine to the people then that’s a problem.


You won’t know if you don’t have a prayer life, and know the word.





JLB

 

[jasonc]

I am certainly the church; a member of the body of Christ, just as you are.


I certainly don’t rely on my Pastor to provide me with everything the Bible teaches.


Here’s a scripture for you to consider.


Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15


How can I take responsibility for my family to know if the Church I’m in, is teaching the truth or false doctrine if I don’t know myself?


But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8




JLB

I am certainly the church; a member of the body of Christ, just as you are.


I certainly don’t rely on my Pastor to provide me with everything the Bible teaches.


Here’s a scripture for you to consider.


Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15


How can I take responsibility for my family to know if the Church I’m in, is teaching the truth or false doctrine if I don’t know myself?


But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8




JLB

in not saying other wise isn't but seriously you cant assume you,are 100 perecebt correct if there's is no one above you .

i know these arguments .my walk suffered badly .physically attending church is far ,far superior .

local one man ,family churches are not the same as, body with accountabikty .while i know of these that started as local home churches

the local Catholic church ,all of them from the house of ed Schlitt.the two lutheran churches from hans clemmans who founded one and it split after a decision to change synods,calvary chapel ,pillar community church ,most recent ,and also first baptist church with the home of j.c.dubose .yet these all had a parent church over them and sent leaders or they were sent .in st.Helens and the Lutheran and first Baptist these were a lonely family of each who had sent to a distruct church to send leaders to establish.

local church history is a favorite .I take photos of them .I don't know where Schlitt lived but the oldest sanctuary of st.Helens still stands and that canoeing father who traveled from cocoa to stuart is interesting and not to mention the methodist equalivent ! that is even older

that all save pillar and Calvary chapel was when there was NO trains ,planes or cars.
wagon trails took,longer to traverse a steamer or schloop was the faster of the way . it took days from the cape to Jupiter .week up and back .pastors who planted stayed with those families and tilled their lands or picked groves ,milked cows then preached and moved on to the next house as needed

 

[brightfame52]

Predestined for purpose.



JLB

Predestined to conform to the image of Christ which is Salvation.