IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[jasonc]

God deals with his enemies differently,then we do .

he offers them a chance to repent .until then are children of wrath ,Paul's word .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Christianity 101 ---> God does not hate man. He loves man. The condition He hates is sin.

I gave 10 to 15 verses that indicate God hates some men. You gave none. In sports that score is 15-0. (Admittedly, I am acting a participant and referee)
Again, give us a verse that says God hates no one. Explain, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" .... make it 15-1.

Since you introduced Hitler to the discussion, perhaps you can answer how your idea of God differs from Hitler? Both hate certain people just because they exist.

I introduced Hilter to demonstrate the severe weakness of your argument. You find a nut job fringe group that isn't even Calvinist (their hyper-calvinist according to WIKIPEDIA), somehow try to associate hyper-calvinism with Calvinism and conclude Calvinism is terrible/hateful. Ridiculous and dishonest or uneducated. Just as it is ridiculous to denigrate R.C.s because Hilter was baptized R.C. by way of analogy. You write like an intelligent man, I shouldn't have to explain this.
At least when you use a weak straw man argument, find a real example of a calvinist to use. I am sure that are a lot of fallen Calvinist's to choose from. R.C. Sproul's son, he is a Calvinist minister that was disciplined for looking at porn. Use him .. he at least is a Calvinist. You can say, "look at R.C. Sprouls son, he looked at porn. That proves all Calvinist's are hateful or horny or however you want to conflate a sinful Calvinist to Calvinism. *giggles to himself, ridiculous*

Again, I gave scripture (God's word) to support my argument ... you gave a NUT JOB FRINGE GROUP to support your argument. I know you can do better than that.

• Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil [person] dwells with You. 5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil. 6 You destroy those who tell lies; The Lord detests and rejects the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
• Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. KJV
• Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence. 6 Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire; Fire and brimstone and a dreadful scorching wind will be the portion of their cup [of doom]. 7 For the Lord is [absolutely] righteous, He loves righteousness (virtue, morality, justice); The upright shall see His face.
• Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You cannot look favorably on wickedness.

Nothing is more absurd than to imagine that anyone loved of God can eternally perish in hell. It is the imagination of questionable thinking that gently coos, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” This statement is a profane lie! Should Noah's on the the ark say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”? There is nothing in man justifying God’s love; there is nothing in God requiring He love man. It is a result of confused thinking.
Only by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ (Isaiah 53:11; Romans 5:18,-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21) is it possible for God in which there is no darkness, to love a man ... for if God were to love sin He would not be holy for he would love that which is contrary to his essence. (IMO)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Aside: Seems like the thread should be renamed, "Why is hate Calvinism". *giggles to himself*

Aside2: Calvinism does have one weakness. They systematize and publish their understanding of God, others denominations do not to any extent. They are fragmented. I wonder why? Interesting ... I have to hand it to the Roman Catholics. They explain what/why they believe this or that. Most others, not so much ... organized statements of doctrine are definitely is an educational tool they tend to ignore. Good for unity though, as they don't get into published details. (I digress)

 

[Walpole]

I gave 10 to 15 verses that indicate God hates some men. You gave none. In sports that score is 15-0. (Admittedly, I am acting a participant and referee)
Again, give us a verse that says God hates no one. Explain, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" .... make it 15-1.


I introduced Hilter to demonstrate the severe weakness of your argument. You find a nut job fringe group that isn't even Calvinist (their hyper-calvinist according to WIKIPEDIA), somehow try to associate hyper-calvinism with Calvinism and conclude Calvinism is terrible/hateful. Ridiculous and dishonest or uneducated. Just as it is ridiculous to denigrate R.C.s because Hilter was baptized R.C. by way of analogy. You write like an intelligent man, I shouldn't have to explain this.
At least when you use a weak straw man argument, find a real example of a calvinist to use. I am sure that are a lot of fallen Calvinist's to choose from. R.C. Sproul's son, he is a Calvinist minister that was disciplined for looking at porn. Use him .. he at least is a Calvinist. You can say, "look at R.C. Sprouls son, he looked at porn. That proves all Calvinist's are hateful or horny or however you want to conflate a sinful Calvinist to Calvinism. *giggles to himself, ridiculous*

Again, I gave scripture (God's word) to support my argument ... you gave a NUT JOB FRINGE GROUP to support your argument. I know you can do better than that.

• Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil [person] dwells with You. 5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil. 6 You destroy those who tell lies; The Lord detests and rejects the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
• Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. KJV
• Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence. 6 Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire; Fire and brimstone and a dreadful scorching wind will be the portion of their cup [of doom]. 7 For the Lord is [absolutely] righteous, He loves righteousness (virtue, morality, justice); The upright shall see His face.
• Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You cannot look favorably on wickedness.

Nothing is more absurd than to imagine that anyone loved of God can eternally perish in hell. It is the imagination of questionable thinking that gently coos, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” This statement is a profane lie! Should Noah's on the the ark say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”? There is nothing in man justifying God’s love; there is nothing in God requiring He love man. It is a result of confused thinking.
Only by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ (Isaiah 53:11; Romans 5:18,-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21) is it possible for God in which there is no darkness, to love a man ... for if God were to love sin He would not be holy for he would love that which is contrary to his essence. (IMO)

It never takes the Calvinists too long to bring up Esau...

Jesus Christ says ---> "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:6)

So, have you killed your family and planned your own suicide because you hate your family and yourself? Do you hate your family as Jesus said?


Answer ---> Hate is a figure of speech, as in Jacob was prioritized over Esau.


This concept of a God who hates is nothing more than a pagan megalomaniac volcano god. There is no differentiating him from the Nazis. Both hate just based on the fact that someone exists.


Christianity 101 ---> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What's the WCF?
Why are people so lazy that they abbreviate everything?

 

[jasonc]

the greeek word in the new testament is the word love less ,the old testament is not the same Greek word

the same word for hate as in God hates sin can't be called a figure of speech if it's the same word in the tanach (old testament)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What's the WCF?
Why are people so lazy that they abbreviate everything?

YHWH
Now there's an abbreviation!!!

 

[Walpole]

And this idea that Hitler was somehow a Catholic is a non-sequitur as Hitler renounced Catholicism and considered Catholics among the untermensch (subhuman masses) and killed hundreds of thousands of them. He also called Catholicism a "lie" and "nonsense." Furthermore, Catholics typically don't seek to have the pope murdered.

(Sources: Hilter's Table Talk and the testimony of Erwin Lahousen, first witness for the prosecution at Nurnberg, Germany, Feb 1, 1946, Nothing Sacred, Alvarez and Graham, 84)


"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is the illegitimate child of Christianity. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity." - Adolph Hilter, Table Talk


Now, show me what teaching of Westboro Baptist is wrong and not Calvinist. You can't because they are the ultimate expression of Calvinism. "God hates ________ ( <--- fill in the blank). From the foundation of the world, God hated you!"

 

[jasonc]

Jacob and Esau by C. H. Spurgeon

C. H. Spurgeon :: Jacob and Esau

www.blueletterbible.org

interesting defense

 

[GodsGrace]

Affirmed in your mind, apparently so.



I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The bible clearly states God does hate some people.
Maybe you're one to those who believes God loves Satan, for example.
Of course, one must define "hate" in relation to God. Your probably define it as an intense emotion of dislike. I do not.
You don't site any verses saying God does not hate anyone. I will give some that say He does. (again, hate has not been defined)
Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 2:4-9; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; Malachi 1:3-4; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil [person] dwells with You. 5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil. 6 You destroy those who tell lies; The Lord detests and rejects the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. KJV

Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence. 6 Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire; Fire and brimstone and a dreadful scorching wind will be the portion of their cup [of doom]. 7 For the Lord is [absolutely] righteous, He loves righteousness (virtue, morality, justice); The upright shall see His face.



LOL .. if you say so. So what? Straw man argument. You can do better than that.
Hilter was baptized Catholic ... therefore all Catholics are bad ...the conflation is comical



...and exactly what does a 1232 N.A. Indian to whom you suggest God offers salvation; what does he have to do to be saved?

FF,,,
Hitler wasn't claiming to be working under the authority of God....
I believe the Baptist church mentioned by the other poster IS.

Also, RC Sproul does say that God loves His creation.
I think you have a problem with distinguishing between God loving His creation (us),
which is why He would want all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
and How He loves His children. He explains it well.

****************************************************
I also found the video of him speaking about how God created sin and evil...

I think it's at about 29.0, or 30.0 - listen carefully

He also answered about God loving everyone....

 

[jasonc]

YHWH
Now there's an abbreviation!!!

oh because the vowels are gone .

 

[WIP]

It never takes the Calvinists too long to bring up Esau...

Jesus Christ says ---> "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:6)

So, have you killed your family and planned your own suicide because you hate your family and yourself? Do you hate your family as Jesus said?


Answer ---> Hate is a figure of speech, as in Jacob was prioritized over Esau.


This concept of a God who hates is nothing more than a pagan megalomaniac volcano god. There is no differentiating him from the Nazis. Both hate just based on the fact that someone exists.


Christianity 101 ---> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I agree the use of the word "hate" is probably misunderstood. Maybe the word carried a different meaning 2000+ years ago or maybe the translation to English doesn't work well and hate was the closest they could get or perhaps even a little of both. This might be a good discussion of its own.

 

[WIP]

What's the WCF?
Why are people so lazy that they abbreviate everything?

I was wondering the same thing. I asked my good buddy, Google, and got a couple possibilities.

• Windows Communication Foundation.
• Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[Walpole]

What's the WCF?
Why are people so lazy that they abbreviate everything?

Someone should publish a LOA!

(List of acronyms)

 

[jasonc]

Evil in God's Providential Rule

Most Christian apologists (defenders of the faith) agree that the most dicult question for believers is the so-called problem of evil. Those who raise the problem of evil as a reason not to believe in ...

www.ligonier.org

stovebolts

Rambam on the purpose of the serpent is close to,that .

it created to tempt to test men .

 

[JLB]

Westminster Confession of Faith.

The handbook of Reformed Theology.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

What's the WCF?

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/
There is a shorter catechism: https://opc.org/sc.html
There is a longer catechism: https://opc.org/lc.html
There is a middle sized catechism: https://justKidding

Why are people so lazy that they abbreviate everything?

I think the answer is in the question.

 

[jasonc]

Ada,mp,cav,trans.

acr(l),inf bde motor,

the upper are my mos ,the lower is my active duty unit type

air defense ,military police ,Calvary and transportation ,2 armored cav light ,infantry brigade motorized .when typing orders or writing this saves time and on guidons its useful ,color codes are used ,red /white for cav at the troop /squadron level ,yellow like armor at the regiment ,blue for the infantry for all levels .

red for the Ada .mp is green with the company and battalion level .also the insignia of these on all but brigade and above

 

[GodsGrace]

We may be at an impasse then.
I say the arminian definition of 'free will' (I use that because you won't give your definition)
let's me chose to believe (A) or not believe (B) and God has no control of that
God say he will send me to heaven if I choose (A) or hell if I choose (B).
Since God doesn't control what I do, and I have his rule book saying what he will do ... I can use his rule book to control him... anyways, if you don't follow, so be it. Maybe its me, we both think it's the other person that is the comprehension issue.

You understand free will as explained on my side of the fence.
It's VERY simple really.
But, again, how are you using God's rule book to control Him?
He has made you free to choose what YOU want to do.
After all, He did make us in His image and He certainly has free will.
Of course, His will absolutely will not go against His nature...but it is free.
This freedom was passed on to us.
So if you choose A for heaven or B for hell, it will be your choice, and God will be just in sending you to hell if you chose B.

In your view of theology,,,,how could God be just in sending anyone to hell unless He either sent everyone there
or gave everyone the same opportunity to become saved??

God is not a respecter of persons; there is no partiality with God...He treats everyone the same.

Romans 2:11
There is no partiality with God. He treats everyone with equal justice.

Colossians 3:25
25For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Doing wrong has consequences....in calvinist theology this is not true because those that end up in hell don't even know why.

ANother impasse, if you won't define what you mean then there's no where to go.

Don't know what you're referring to.

Agreed.

My definition has "free will" has been unchanging. I use Augustine's definition.
"I always do what I desire most at the time" ... my desires could change and external forces can cause me desires to change. Everyone naturally desire (wills) to Believe Salvifically unless God changes their desire which is does exclusively for those He chooses. Everyone He chooses will desire (will) to believe.

Free will also extends to making moral choices.
Exactly what does "I always do what I desire most at the time" mean??
Speak of vagueness!!
Could you post something?

Here's something:
Ephesians 6:12
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Why are we struggling if it is God that will make us persevere till the end if we are born again?
Why should we take up the armor of God...if it is HE that will protect us...
Why would we need any armor?

This sounds to me like we have to do the works ourselves - with the HELP of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. Minor exception: I wouldn't save it robs God of His honor. Any part of salvation in which we are the only cause does not bring honor to God. This is logical as God can't take credit for something He had not part of.

God is honored when anyone is saved...of their own free will.

Luke 15:7
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Why joy if it is God doing the choosing?

You make a good point. Let me try this from my point of view and my definition of "free" which is not the same as yours (though you never state it )
1) Man is not free to determine his future in any way, God does that (James 4:15)
2) I am free at any current moment in time to do whatever I desire most. (well, within realm of possibility)
So, both God and I get what we want. God gets what he wants (predestines) by controlling my desire. I get what I want as I always do what I desire most at the time.

If God is controlling your desire.....
HOW is that any kind free will??

Careful, you keep reading the institutes and you may come over to "the dark side".

I read them so I can know what Calvin taught.

Shh, I might lose my 'club membership'. Maybe I should start my own denomination. (J/K)
I don't agree, by the way. Occasionally, I don't think you understand some of the finer points .... we will agree to disagree.

Yes. Someone doesn't understand the finer points because they're masked in vague wording.
Something you hate BTW.

Well stated. Put that way, I guess you're right. (I must be getting tired... I am not use to saying "you're right". Must be God ALLOWING me to do something wrong.

Is He allowing you....
or have you been predestined to tell me I'm right??

 

[GodsGrace]

It never takes the Calvinists too long to bring up Esau...

Jesus Christ says ---> "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:6)

So, have you killed your family and planned your own suicide because you hate your family and yourself? Do you hate your family as Jesus said?


Answer ---> Hate is a figure of speech, as in Jacob was prioritized over Esau.


This concept of a God who hates is nothing more than a pagan megalomaniac volcano god. There is no differentiating him from the Nazis. Both hate just based on the fact that someone exists.


Christianity 101 ---> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I agree that HATE is a figure of speech in Romans 9.

There is proof here that God does not predestine everything.
IF He did,,,Jacob would have been born first and Esau second.

Why would God have Esau be born first if He controlled everything that happened in this world?
God created nature....and He allows nature to work naturally.
When it does not...we call it a miracle.

God did not hate Esau.
He teaches that we are to love Him, our neighbor and ourselves.
God does not contradict Himself.

Jesus meant, as you've stated, that HE is to be first in our lives.
We must love Him so much that the rest looks like hate..
OR,,,we must put everything else in second place.