Is preaching once saved always saved helpful..

[Merry Menagerie]

One must have a repentent heart and a resolve not to sin any more for grace to cover a sin. Jesus said to the woman in adultery. Go and sin no more. In Romans 6 Paul says we must not continue in sin. Yes, we all sin but we must strive to overcome it, knowing that Chrsit gives us power over our sins, so that we need not be enslaved by them any longer. Here is what happens if we yeild to the sin in our lives:

We overcome sin by having faith in Christ's finished work on the cross. So we are saved by grace through faith. You say that one MUST have a repentent heart...that's true but it's NOT US who comes to repentence through our own strength but the Holy Spirit that draws us. And our repentent heart comes from Christ not US!

See,....it's not about US it's about Christ! It's always about Christ and HIS WORK not us and OUR WORK. See the difference?

And again, you need to read Galatians chapter 3 to find out the context of 'falling from grace' comes from.

How did the Galatians 'fall from grace'?
What were they doing?
Were they sinning? NO! They were not sinning.
Were they trying to overcome sin? Yes they were!!
How were they trying to overcome sin?
How were they trying to justify themselves to God?

You need to read Galatians 3 to find out what they were doing for Paul to instruct them about 'falling from grace'!

 

[Solo]

Those that believe that works and being good earns one salvation, then I see how one could believe in loosing salvation, since it is works or no works that saves one from that mindset, BUT;

Those that have received the free gift of salvation from God, and from that salvation perform works of the Father through the Spirit, it is they that are sealed until the day of redemption.

I was one who believed that the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine was poisonous, false, and a doctrine to trick mankind into a sense of comfort. I was mislead that salvation was something that I could gain by something that I did to be accepted by God. I was wrong at that time, and praise be to God that he led me into His truth, not by man, but by his Word and the holy Spirit.

 

[thessalonian]

We overcome sin by having faith in Christ's finished work on the cross. So we are saved by grace through faith. You say that one MUST have a repentent heart...that's true but it's NOT US who comes to repentence through our own strength but the Holy Spirit that draws us. And our repentent heart comes from Christ not US!

Christ's work on the cross and the grace that he earned for us has to be brought forward and applied to our lives today. Amen to the rest of it. It is hardly just a protestant notion that the Holy Spirit draws men to God. You are not telling me anything I didn't know.

See,....it's not about US it's about Christ! It's always about Christ and HIS WORK not us and OUR WORK. See the difference?

See it? I live it! Amen. Preach it bro. God working in and through me as Eph 3:20 says.


20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

Producing 30, 60, or 100 fold in me. Wow!

And again, you need to read Galatians chapter 3 to find out the context of 'falling from grace' comes from.

How did the Galatians 'fall from grace'?
What were they doing?
Were they sinning? NO! They were not sinning.
Were they trying to overcome sin? Yes they were!!
How were they trying to overcome sin?
How were they trying to justify themselves to God?

I've read galations over and over again. First of all they had to be sinning because they could not be overcoming their sins without relying on his grace. Thus they could only become more enslaved by their sins which with his grace they could overcome. But it's all imaterial. What you have to be saying for once saved always saved to be true is that they were never in grace to begin with. They were standing under the tree, never in it and Paul said to them "you have fallen out of the tree.". It's silly. Now if they were in grace then it makes sense that the fell from grace and this violates Once Saved Always Saved. What am I missing?

You need to read Galatians 3 to find out what they were doing for Paul to instruct them about 'falling from grace'!

He wasn't just instructing them. He told them they had already fallen from grace. Another interesting thing is that he was pleading for them to come back in to grace. The other verses I have posted on this thread bear further witness to the fact that you can fall from grace.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Those that believe that works and being good earns one salvation, then I see how one could believe in loosing salvation, since it is works or no works that saves one from that mindset, BUT;

Those that have received the free gift of salvation from God, and from that salvation perform works of the Father through the Spirit, it is they that are sealed until the day of redemption.

I was one who believed that the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine was poisonous, false, and a doctrine to trick mankind into a sense of comfort. I was mislead that salvation was something that I could gain by something that I did to be accepted by God. I was wrong at that time, and praise be to God that he led me into His truth, not by man, but by his Word and the holy Spirit.

Salvation is God working in you. Eph 3:20-21.

20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


To him we give praise and glory and honor for the good that we do that we could never achieve without his grace. That is the power of our good behavior and our good works. We need to be good but it is by his grace for we cannot do it on our own. We need to perform good works for we will be judged by them but he gives us the grace to do them.

Romans
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Also see Matt 25, the sheep and the goats which is analogous to the above.

 

[thessalonian]

In direct answer to the topic of this thread here is what I believe OSAS does:

It undermines the need to do good.
It undermines the need to do good works.
It undermines the acknowledgement that God gives us the grace to avoid sin and do good.
It undermines the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist which is God's grace applied to our lives daily. Our mana in the desert of life.
It undermines the need to repent daily of our sins (since futures sins are forgiven).
It therefore nulifies the word of God which speaks about the need to do good works(romans 2:4-8, matt 25), the sacraments, the grace of God helping us to do good ("My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink").

It does not acknowledge the power of God's grace working in our lives daily.

It undermines the authority of the Church because men who are already saved have less motivation to strive for greater holiness, thus less real need to have the word of God preached to them.
It causes men to not give God his weekly due of worship on the Lord's day. If they are already "saved" in the future sense, (we are saved in the present and past tense) there is much less motivation for them to go to Church, which I have noticed in my OSAS relatives on my wife's side. Missing Church on Sundays isn't that big a deal for them.

These are just my observations, having known many OSAS peope.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

Let me say this in as simple of terms as I know how.

The works of man are totally filthy and unrighteous apart from God working within man.

A man that has been born of the Spirit of God has the ability to NOW do good works. This same man continues to reside in a corrupt, mortal, sinful flesh. Until the resurrection to come where the mortal will put on immortality, and the corrupt will put on incorruption, there will be a battle within the members of a believer.

Walk in the Spirit (New creature) so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Old creature).

A MAN'S WORKS ARE UNRIGHTEOUS AND AS FILTHY RAGS AS A NATURAL BORN SINNER. UNTIL A MAN BECOMES SAVED, HE CAN NOT DO GOOD WORKS. GOOD WORKS COME AFTER FAITH.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

It is indeed true that a man cannot do anything part from Christ who strengthens us, and that good works cannot and will not earn us justification apart from the sacrifice of Christ.

But that is not the point of this thread or of the OP.

What about this preaching of OSAS- is it biblical, and does it bring forth good fruit?

Salvation is decidely NOT presented as something that we own in the scriptures. Yes, you might say, but scripture says that I am "saved." Yes, and I am married, but that does not mean that I cannot break the marriage.

Salvation is a relationship with Christ. IN Christ is salvation. Salvation is not just some debit sheet, whereby those justified simply get a pass on sin because they agreed to the covenant.

A relationship is not a static thing, and can be broken by either party. We know that God ain't about to break it off with us, for is faithful and true. But we maintain the ability to break the relationship, and thus to depart from salvation- not by our sin, for we all sin- but by our desire to divorce ourselves from Him.

Will He pursue us? Of course He will- but we can never lose our free will to chose. In fact, without free will to chose, there could be no sin- and yet scripture clearly states that we do still stumble in sin.

So is preaching OSAS beneficial? Aside from the fact that it is biblically contradicted, it is not good for the simple reason that it misrepresents the nature of our relationship to, in, and with Christ- stating it in legal terms, rather than relational. It also creates a false superiority over the 'unsaved' and a tendency toward antinomianism, in my opinion.

 

[thessalonian]

[ double again

 

[thessalonian]

Let me say this in as simple of terms as I know how.

The works of man are totally filthy and unrighteous apart from God working within man.

A man that has been born of the Spirit of God has the ability to NOW do good works. This same man continues to reside in a corrupt, mortal, sinful flesh. Until the resurrection to come where the mortal will put on immortality, and the corrupt will put on incorruption, there will be a battle within the members of a believer.

Walk in the Spirit (New creature) so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Old creature).

A MAN'S WORKS ARE UNRIGHTEOUS AND AS FILTHY RAGS AS A NATURAL BORN SINNER. UNTIL A MAN BECOMES SAVED, HE CAN NOT DO GOOD WORKS. GOOD WORKS COME AFTER FAITH.

Your telling me something I don't know? How have I contradicted this?
A man who is not in a state of grace could theoretically build a skyscrapper to the clouds and house all the poor and feed them and would still go to hell. But if he is in grace these works have value because they are God working in him. Your commentary on my post is tainted by your false views of what Catholicism teaches.

It seems you do not want to go after the verses that I have posted on this thread. Explain for me how Peter denied the Lord three times and yet did not fall from grace. Explain how a man standing under a tree can be said to have fallen from the tree if he was never in it. If two men were standing under a tree and one of them had a broken leg would you say, look both have fallen out of the tree? How about 1 Cor 15:2, sounds like conditional salvation to me. How was Judas Jesus trusted friend? How about Hebrews 6 where it says that after PARTAKING IN THE SPIRIT and falling away one cannot be restored?

Let's try get back on topic shall we. :

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote:

One that continued in sin at Corinth was rebuked by Paul in that he gave commandment that such a one be turned over to satan so that his flesh would be destroyed but that his spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord, Jesus.

He was turned over to Satan so that he would suffer and then, hopefully, he would repent and turn from his sin and be saved.

Solo wrote:

A MAN'S WORKS ARE UNRIGHTEOUS AND AS FILTHY RAGS AS A NATURAL BORN SINNER. UNTIL A MAN BECOMES SAVED, HE CAN NOT DO GOOD WORKS. GOOD WORKS COME AFTER FAITH.

You quote a part of a verse that is used constantly out of context. God will not accept our sacrificial good works if we have a sinful heart that is not sincerely repentant. Repentance is a daily recognition the perfection of his way and striving to attain to it, not something we do once and for all and leave the rest up to God. We are secure when we are following Christ. When we are walking in his commands, we are in Christ and there is where we have a guarantee of eternal life. If I give you an umbrella, the gift won’t keep you dry unless you open it and hold it over you.


Merry Menagerie wrote:

You need to read Galatians 3 to find out what they were doing for Paul to instruct them about 'falling from grace'!

They were depending on ceremonies and rites to save them instead of works of love and faith and repenting of their sins and following Christ.

Gal 3:8

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know Godâ€â€or rather are known by Godâ€â€how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Gal 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

OSAS is wrong and preaching it does more harm than good because it is never good to propagate lies of Satan. It may be helpful to fill pews and coffers though. :roll:

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Christ's work on the cross and the grace that he earned for us has to be brought forward and applied to our lives today. Amen to the rest of it. It is hardly just a protestant notion that the Holy Spirit draws men to God. You are not telling me anything I didn't know.

And how, pray tell, is it brought forward? Scripture please!! Also I believe I am telling you something you didn't know because you still believe one can lose one's salvation like losing their keys or something.

See it? I live it! Amen. Preach it bro. God working in and through me as Eph 3:20 says.

It's not for US to live it but Christ!!! You see? The effort goes from US to Christ's. It is always about Christ - never us!!!

I've read galations over and over again. First of all they had to be sinning because they could not be overcoming their sins without relying on his grace. Thus they could only become more enslaved by their sins which with his grace they could overcome. But it's all imaterial. What you have to be saying for once saved always saved to be true is that they were never in grace to begin with. They were standing under the tree, never in it and Paul said to them "you have fallen out of the tree.". It's silly. Now if they were in grace then it makes sense that the fell from grace and this violates Once Saved Always Saved. What am I missing?

I'll tell you what you are missing. The term 'fall from Grace' was used to described people who were still under the law and still trying to fulfil the Law like Christ's death was for nothing!!!! Get it? Nothing to do with being bad people and not doing good deeds...not at all. THEY WERE!!!! They were trying to do good deeds by following the law...thinking they were being 'good' and God would be happy. But they lacked faith...and it's faith that saves.

He wasn't just instructing them. He told them they had already fallen from grace. Another interesting thing is that he was pleading for them to come back in to grace. The other verses I have posted on this thread bear further witness to the fact that you can fall from grace.

Come BACK into grace? Hmmmm A true child of God will always come back to grace! Simple!

OSAS is wrong and preaching it does more harm than good because it is never good to propagate lies of Satan. It may be helpful to fill pews and coffers though

It does not do more harm than good...you are wrong! The notion that once I was saved I was always saved and that I WAS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD and not my own...SAVED MY LIFE!!! Litterally - so you're wrong!

What about this preaching of OSAS- is it biblical, and does it bring forth good fruit?

Yes it does!!!

It undermines the need to do good.

Yes it undermines the need for US to be good - yes!! It does. We then realise that it's not OUR GOOD WORKS but God's works that saves! And it sets people free.

It undermines the need to do good works.

As above - there is no good in me that God didn't put there himself - praise the Lord.
It undermines the acknowledgement that God gives us the grace to avoid sin and do good.

It undermines the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist which is God's grace applied to our lives daily.

The sacraments do not save!

Our mana in the desert of life.

Our mana is Christ's Holy Spirit and should remain such

It undermines the need to repent daily of our sins (since futures sins are forgiven).

Actually because one is relying on God's works more then one is then relying on the HOly Spirit who brings us to repentence AT ALL TIMES. So no..you're wrong!

It therefore nulifies the word of God which speaks about the need to do good works(romans 2:4-8, matt 25), the sacraments, the grace of God helping us to do good ("My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink").

You need to keep reading friend. The need to do good works is GOD'S responsiblity not ours. That's what salvation is all about! Also the sacraments have been misinterpreted to mean salvation!

It does not acknowledge the power of God's grace working in our lives daily.

What??? No the opposite is true...it actually completely acknowledges God's grace! COMPLETELY!! Without US getting in the way.

It undermines the authority of the Church because men who are already saved have less motivation to strive for greater holiness, thus less real need to have the word of God preached to them.

Christ as the authority NOT MEN!!!! We don't need to strive for greater holiness WE ARE HOLY!!! Been done friend!!! The word of God does not need to be preached!

It causes men to not give God his weekly due of worship on the Lord's day.

Oh dear dear dear!!! Friend you are way off! "give God his weekly due" like he's only worth one day! Goodness me!!!

If they are already "saved" in the future sense, (we are saved in the present and past tense) there is much less motivation for them to go to Church,

We are the church! We gather and fellowship with other Christians BECAUSE we are walking in the light. We don't need motivation...it's a none issue. Fellowship comes naturally!

which I have noticed in my OSAS relatives on my wife's side. Missing Church on Sundays isn't that big a deal for them.

It's not a big deal for me either, because we don't have to meet at a building full of people on a sunday...we can actually meet on ANY DAY, ANYWHERE!!!!!! Which means that God means more to me then a religious observance.

You poor poor person! I feel so sorry for you!!! I used to be as bound as you were...thankfully I am now set free! I pray that you will one day walk in the TRUE grace and be set free as well.

 

[unred typo]

It does not do more harm than good...you are wrong! The notion that once I was saved I was always saved and that I WAS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD and not my own...SAVED MY LIFE!!! Litterally - so you're wrong!

Your life should never hang by a notion, no matter how comforting it may be. If it is wrong, it is false security. That said, you can trust God. Fear not, little flock, it is your father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom and His mercy endures forever. Follow Christ and keep his words, obey him, forsake and confess your sins, and he will keep you in perfect peace.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
Here is a post from another site that I posted up. I think that we are both sincere believers in something that this post is about??? But do Born Again ones really think that God needs to ever just threaten to do things? Is this truthful? (slightly altered)
_____

Brother John, you gotta get back to the basics. It sounds simple because it is. Just get back to the basics and quit worrying that you aren't gaining salvation because perhaps your works aren't good enough or you haven't 'earned' salvation yet. You HAVE it! You accepted it 40 years ago. You are going to Heaven! Rejoice! Praise the Lord with all you have! Bro, you are Heaven bound!
And if doubt creeps in then rebuke satan and send him packing because you are a child of God.

******
John here:
Saved other than by faith???? One best ask their self why they are not 'physically' whole yet! (THINK!) But, most would not understand that remark by Christ either! 'Pick up thy bed and walk, thy sins are forgiven thee'. (all 'real' or professed Christians are physically healed at present?) Read it again until you understand the Truth stated there by CHRIST! Read Rev. 17:1-5 Whatever??

Again, the ones in Heb. 11:13 D-I-E-D IN THE FAITH!
The RECORD BOOK was CLOSED on their life on earth, not ours.
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews. 10:38. And the RECORD BOOKS have a broadway full of these 'draw back' ones! And you are not helping the Master, or them with 1/2 'g'ospel that is NO GOSPEL!! !! Ezekiel 18:24-26 (again see the closing of THE BOOK, verses 18-19's Book of Life.

And the 'Inspiration' from Peter in Acts 3:19 is not garbled in the least!
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

There seems to be no point of return for some, regardless of which one is here seen! God does not wast time on folks who have made the final DECISION to reject His Truth. It is then impossible for Him to turn these around! It is called the sin of
1 John 5:16-17, ..unto death. Again.. which ever one it is that have their feet is spiritual concrete. Colossians 1:23. "IF" again, huh? Regardless of whom!

satan is too smart for me, I had met him before. Before I found Christ. Folks read & 'see not.' (your's or my postings even) Or else they are openly truly the lost ones on 2 Cor. 4:2, which very well may be? Hebrews. 6:6

"If ye love me keep my commandments" Christ says!

 

[thessalonian]

And how, pray tell, is it brought forward? Scripture please!! Also I believe I am telling you something you didn't know because you still believe one can lose one's salvation like losing their keys or something.

Can you quote where I said one can loose their salvation? I have not said it to my knowledge and don't believe it. If God is going to save someone they will end up in heaven by his grace and his grace alone. Don't distort what I say. But the guestion is, are all who have attained a state of grace going to be saved or can they fall from grace as scripture states in Galatians 3. If you can tell me how a man can fall out of a tree he was never in then I will agree with you that noone in grace will fall out of grace.

It's not for US to live it but Christ!!! You see? The effort goes from US to Christ's. It is always about Christ - never us!!!

Your just being arguementive here. Paul says all over that "I preached the gospel", "I labored" etc. etc. Is he wrong in saying this? Did Christ preach the Gospel or he? False dichotomy. Whose good deeds does Peter say we are to do?

1Pet.2
[12] Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation

YOUR good deeds. Of course they must recognize it is Christ working in them. But they must do the deeds.

I'll tell you what you are missing. The term 'fall from Grace' was used to described people who were still under the law and still trying to fulfil the Law like Christ's death was for nothing!!!! Get it? Nothing to do with being bad people and not doing good deeds...not at all. THEY WERE!!!! They were trying to do good deeds by following the law...thinking they were being 'good' and God would be happy. But they lacked faith...and it's faith that saves. [/qoute]

They could not have been in grace and then "fallen from grace" if they were never in it, which is what you are saying. They were never saved in the first place according to your own theology and therefore NEVER IN GRACE. Get it. If two men are at the bottom of a large tree and one is holding his leg, severly wounded, do you suppose that they were both in the tree? Is't silly.



[quote:a56c1]Come BACK into grace? Hmmmm A true child of God will always come back to grace! Simple!

Well that is trumping God's word with the OSAS tradition because you can't fall from what you weren't in. I don't know how long it is going to take to get you to think about this. It makes scripture nonsensical to say someone has "fallen from grace" if they were never in grace.

It undermines the need to do good.

Yes it undermines the need for US to be good - yes!! It does. We then realise that it's not OUR GOOD WORKS but God's works that saves! And it sets people free.[/quote:a56c1]

No it chains them to their own selfishness.

It undermines the need to do good works.

As above - there is no good in me that God didn't put there himself - praise the Lord. .

Why do you keep up with these arguementive points when I agree with them. We however must do the deeds that God gives us the grace to do. The grace is not irresistable or we would never sin, because he always gives a way out.

The sacraments do not save!

Chapter, verse please. Baptism now SAVES YOU Peter says in 1 Peter 3:20, 21.

"Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you" Jesus says. I go with Jesus and not your obvuscations.

Our mana in the desert of life.

Our mana is Christ's Holy Spirit and should remain such.

Once again your create dichotomys with the Catholic faith where there are none. Sacraments are exactly about the Holy Spirit strengthing our souls.

Actually because one is relying on God's works more then one is then relying on the HOly Spirit who brings us to repentence AT ALL TIMES. So no..you're wrong!

I agree with what you say so how am I wrong.

You need to keep reading friend. The need to do good works is GOD'S responsiblity not ours. That's what salvation is all about! Also the sacraments have been misinterpreted to mean salvation!

The sacraments are Gods works. It is a work of mine to have water dumped over my head? Or to go up and recieve the Eucharist? Very silly. It simply shows ignorance on your part of Catholic doctrine, which you seem to think your an expert in.

It undermines the authority of the Church because men who are already saved have less motivation to strive for greater holiness, thus less real need to have the word of God preached to them.

Christ as the authority NOT MEN!!!! We don't need to strive for greater holiness WE ARE HOLY!!! Been done friend!!! The word of God does not need to be preached![/quote]

Wow. Thanks for making my point. Do you have a problem with Heb 13:17, obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls. How about this verse:

1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

These men don't have authority over whom they rule? Jerimiah says " I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING'. We don't have to listen to these shepherds? I can go on and on about men who are in authority over us. But I feel it would do little good because OSAS has blinded you to the authority of men that God does put over you.

Blessings

Oh dear dear dear!!! Friend you are way off! "give God his weekly due" like he's only worth one day! Goodness me!!!

Goodness you? Where did I say he was only worth a day. But I said if one is not coming together with other Christians to worship him AT LEAST once a week they are not giving him his due. Of course you make it in to leagalism to support your preconcieived prejudicial notions about Catholics. Very sad. :

We are the church! We gather and fellowship with other Christians BECAUSE we are walking in the light. We don't need motivation...it's a none issue. Fellowship comes naturally!

That's why my relatives and friends who claim to believe OSAS don't ever really fellowship with anyone or neglect it for long periods of time. sarcasm over.

It's not a big deal for me either, because we don't have to meet at a building full of people on a sunday...we can actually meet on ANY DAY, ANYWHERE!!!!!! Which means that God means more to me then a religious observance.

More rhetoric built on bias and prejudice against Catholics and catholicism. sigh.

You poor poor person! I feel so sorry for you!!! I used to be as bound as you were...thankfully I am now set free! I pray that you will one day walk in the TRUE grace and be set free as well.

It is I who am sad for you. For you are closed to much of the grace God has available for you to produce thirty, sixty, or 100 fold.

 

[Solo]

Most Roman Catholics earn their salvation through works, therefore they can't understand salvation as a free gift permanently given to them by a loving God.

It is interesting that I came from a Roman Catholic type understanding prior to being saved, as I was raised in a trinity lutheran church (similar views and consubstantiation); and I too had difficulty with salvation being given without earning it; as well as salvation being permanent without man keeping it on his own. I have met some saved Lutherans and Roman Catholics who understand salvation as being given by God as a free gift to all believers as the sacrifice was a once for all event. All sins were paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. It took me about three years after I was saved to understand the salvation of God to His children (Not all are his children).

Not one Roman Catholic or Pro-loseyoursalvation proponent has answered the meaning of this verse:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Nor have they answered which sin or sins will cause one to lose their salvation.

 

[John the Baptist]

Most Roman Catholics earn their salvation through works, therefore they can't understand salvation as a free gift permanently given to them by a loving God.

It is interesting that I came from a Roman Catholic type understanding prior to being saved, as I was raised in a trinity lutheran church (similar views and consubstantiation); and I too had difficulty with salvation being given without earning it; as well as salvation being permanent without man keeping it on his own. I have met some saved Lutherans and Roman Catholics who understand salvation as being given by God as a free gift to all believers as the sacrifice was a once for all event. All sins were paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. It took me about three years after I was saved to understand the salvation of God to His children (Not all are his children).

Not one Roman Catholic or Pro-loseyoursalvation proponent has answered the meaning of this verse:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Nor have they answered which sin or sins will cause one to lose their salvation.

***
That is because you do not look around! :wink:
---John

 

[Solo]

Most Roman Catholics earn their salvation through works, therefore they can't understand salvation as a free gift permanently given to them by a loving God.

It is interesting that I came from a Roman Catholic type understanding prior to being saved, as I was raised in a trinity lutheran church (similar views and consubstantiation); and I too had difficulty with salvation being given without earning it; as well as salvation being permanent without man keeping it on his own. I have met some saved Lutherans and Roman Catholics who understand salvation as being given by God as a free gift to all believers as the sacrifice was a once for all event. All sins were paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. It took me about three years after I was saved to understand the salvation of God to His children (Not all are his children).

Not one Roman Catholic or Pro-loseyoursalvation proponent has answered the meaning of this verse:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Nor have they answered which sin or sins will cause one to lose their salvation.

***
That is because you do not look around! :wink:
---John

I don't expect to have to look around for the answer. I know the answer. I know that all believers are sealed until the day of redemtion, saved by the grace of God, not of works lest any man should boast. All sins have been paid for, including those that are committed after the born of the Spirit experience.

I expect the answer of my question to be factual, scriptural, and without personal bias. Hopefully it will be answered on this thread. But I doubt it.

 

[John the Baptist]

Most Roman Catholics earn their salvation through works, therefore they can't understand salvation as a free gift permanently given to them by a loving God.

It is interesting that I came from a Roman Catholic type understanding prior to being saved, as I was raised in a trinity lutheran church (similar views and consubstantiation); and I too had difficulty with salvation being given without earning it; as well as salvation being permanent without man keeping it on his own. I have met some saved Lutherans and Roman Catholics who understand salvation as being given by God as a free gift to all believers as the sacrifice was a once for all event. All sins were paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. It took me about three years after I was saved to understand the salvation of God to His children (Not all are his children).

Not one Roman Catholic or Pro-loseyoursalvation proponent has answered the meaning of this verse:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Nor have they answered which sin or sins will cause one to lose their salvation.

***
That is because you do not look around! :wink:
---John

I don't expect to have to look around for the answer. I know the answer. I know that all believers are sealed until the day of redemtion, saved by the grace of God, not of works lest any man should boast. All sins have been paid for, including those that are committed after the born of the Spirit experience.

I expect the answer of my question to be factual, scriptural, and without personal bias. Hopefully it will be answered on this thread. But I doubt it.

**********
John here: (You need to do some study on your Eph. 4:30 posted verse! Read it a few times. What comes before sealed?)
But, seeing that you know so much, there is no reason to respond. Revelation 3:16-17 explains what happens to these saved at one time Spewed out ones that know it all! What do they need Christ for now, huh?+ the other garbage!! Of: An eternally burning hell! :roll: Sunday sacredness! & the Soul that never dies!!

But, you have eternal life already made, so there is no need to be concerned when the person is already saved. ???Whatever!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Your life should never hang by a notion, no matter how comforting it may be. If it is wrong, it is false security. That said, you can trust God. Fear not, little flock, it is your father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom and His mercy endures forever. Follow Christ and keep his words, obey him, forsake and confess your sins, and he will keep you in perfect peace.

The notion came from God and set me free from the bonds of man. I trust God and only God.

Can you quote where I said one can loose their salvation? I have not said it to my knowledge and don't believe it. If God is going to save someone they will end up in heaven by his grace and his grace alone. Don't distort what I say. But the guestion is, are all who have attained a state of grace going to be saved or can they fall from grace as scripture states in Galatians 3. If you can tell me how a man can fall out of a tree he was never in then I will agree with you that noone in grace will fall out of grace.

Ok so you don't believe that one who falls from grace, loses their salvation then?

Your just being arguementive here. Paul says all over that "I preached the gospel", "I labored" etc. etc. Is he wrong in saying this? Did Christ preach the Gospel or he? False dichotomy. Whose good deeds does Peter say we are to do?

Paul also said "It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me" So the fact that he DID anything...wasn't HIM, because he doesn't live any longer but rather it's Christ. I can certainly vouch for that. Anything thing that *I* do doesn't really come from MY nature but rather CHRIST'S NATURE. So it's not me that loves..or whatever but rather Christ in me, because I cannot do good.

1Pet.2
[12] Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation

YOUR good deeds. Of course they must recognize it is Christ working in them. But they must do the deeds.

But if it's Christ working in them then it's not them is it? See?

They could not have been in grace and then "fallen from grace" if they were never in it, which is what you are saying. They were never saved in the first place according to your own theology and therefore NEVER IN GRACE. Get it. If two men are at the bottom of a large tree and one is holding his leg, severly wounded, do you suppose that they were both in the tree? Is't silly.

But that's what the bible says. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. See? So if someone falls from grace and never comes back then they were never there to begin with. IF they come back...then they prove that they are kept by God's power because they are the children of God. You say how can someone 'fall' if they were never in the tree? YOu don't think that God knows the future? You don't think it's possible with God. Sure it is!

Well that is trumping God's word with the OSAS tradition because you can't fall from what you weren't in. I don't know how long it is going to take to get you to think about this. It makes scripture nonsensical to say someone has "fallen from grace" if they were never in grace.

None with God is in control and we are predestinated!

No it chains them to their own selfishness.

How so?

Why do you keep up with these arguementive points when I agree with them. We however must do the deeds that God gives us the grace to do. The grace is not irresistable or we would never sin, because he always gives a way out.

Why must we? Do these DEEDS earn us heaven? Or does faith? Who are the DEEDS (that are NOT OURS BUT CHRIST'S) justified to? In who's sight? God and Men? WE MUST DO THEM? We don't have to to anything but have faith in Christ...in doing so, HE DOES THEM THROUGH US. Get it? He gets the glory then, and not us. People see Christ in us and not us.

Chapter, verse please. Baptism now SAVES YOU Peter says in 1 Peter 3:20, 21.

"Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you" Jesus says. I go with Jesus and not your obvuscations.

Then you must learn how to tell the difference between natural things and spiritual. sacraments do not save - Christ does! You don't understand what Christ was actually saying if you think it's literal!

Once again your create dichotomys with the Catholic faith where there are none. Sacraments are exactly about the Holy Spirit strengthing our souls.

No sacraments are man's feeble attempt to gain salvation. The Holy Spirit doesn't rely on physical objects.

Actually because one is relying on God's works more then one is then relying on the HOly Spirit who brings us to repentence AT ALL TIMES. So no..you're wrong!


I agree with what you say so how am I wrong.

Because I get the impression from you that you think its US who repents and it's our effort that does this. But it's not, it's the Holy Spirit in us. I apologise if I assume wrongly.

The sacraments are Gods works. It is a work of mine to have water dumped over my head? Or to go up and recieve the Eucharist? Very silly. It simply shows ignorance on your part of Catholic doctrine, which you seem to think your an expert in.

Do I? No I do not wish to be an expert in this doctrine! No way. I'm not interested in it. I'm only interested in God and God alone...not man's doctrines. The way people (and I have never mentioned 'catholic' you did) interpret the Lord's supper etc, is incorrect! This is what I believe.

Wow. Thanks for making my point. Do you have a problem with Heb 13:17, obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls. How about this verse:

1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

I have a problem in the way that scripture is interpreted - Yes!! I have a problem when people abusing those scriptures - yes! I have long since learned to recognise the difference between Christ (who is the authority) and man. Christ can speak THOUGH men...but I've experienced men, who have used the scriptures you have given for their own personal gain. And this I do not trust. I will only ever be under Christ's authority and not man's. You have misjudged my answer here. If someone, who is in authority, preaches rubbish then I know they do not have Christ's authority.

These men don't have authority over whom they rule? Jerimiah says " I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING'. We don't have to listen to these shepherds?

Who says every single one of them are shepherds? Hmm? Sure I'll listen the the TRUE shepherd, in them, if it is Christ. But I will never AGAIN listen to any man that does not have the authority of Christ. I will only ever listen to Christ! Am I wrong for thinking this way?

I can go on and on about men who are in authority over us. But I feel it would do little good because OSAS has blinded you to the authority of men that God does put over you.

You have no idea what I've been through in my life. So called 'authority figures' have used scriptures for their own personal gain. I have long since, have had to learn, what is of God and what isn't. YOu have misjudged me - BIG TIME!!!

Goodness you? Where did I say he was only worth a day. But I said if one is not coming together with other Christians to worship him AT LEAST once a week they are not giving him his due. Of course you make it in to leagalism to support your preconcieived prejudicial notions about Catholics. Very sad.

No you actually didn't say that at all. You said that Christians should meet together to give him his weekly due. I never EVER mentioned Catholics in my post...EVER! Actually I had another 'church' in my mind when I wrote this post and I don't believe anyone on this forum attends it. So you have misjudged me - yet again

That's why my relatives and friends who claim to believe OSAS don't ever really fellowship with anyone or neglect it for long periods of time. sarcasm over.

So your relatives do not meet with other christians? Ever? What about dinner...do they meet up in each other's houses for dinner? What about coffee? Do they fellowship with each other at all? Why do you put me in the same catagory as your relatives. I dont' know your relatives. All I know is it comes naturally for me to be in fellowship with my fellow Christians - no matter where I am. Because I walk in the light.

More rhetoric built on bias and prejudice against Catholics and catholicism. sigh.

Again - I did not mention catholics. Nor was I even thinking of catholics when I wrote this post. You are very defensive! You do realise that there are other organisational institutions we call 'church', other than the catholic church, that exists today right? The Catholic church is not the be all and end all.

It is I who am sad for you. For you are closed to much of the grace God has available for you to produce thirty, sixty, or 100 fold.

If only you knew!!

 

[Solo]

[quote="John the Baptist":275fb]

Most Roman Catholics earn their salvation through works, therefore they can't understand salvation as a free gift permanently given to them by a loving God.

It is interesting that I came from a Roman Catholic type understanding prior to being saved, as I was raised in a trinity lutheran church (similar views and consubstantiation); and I too had difficulty with salvation being given without earning it; as well as salvation being permanent without man keeping it on his own. I have met some saved Lutherans and Roman Catholics who understand salvation as being given by God as a free gift to all believers as the sacrifice was a once for all event. All sins were paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. It took me about three years after I was saved to understand the salvation of God to His children (Not all are his children).

Not one Roman Catholic or Pro-loseyoursalvation proponent has answered the meaning of this verse:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Nor have they answered which sin or sins will cause one to lose their salvation.

***
That is because you do not look around! :wink:
---John

I don't expect to have to look around for the answer. I know the answer. I know that all believers are sealed until the day of redemtion, saved by the grace of God, not of works lest any man should boast. All sins have been paid for, including those that are committed after the born of the Spirit experience.

I expect the answer of my question to be factual, scriptural, and without personal bias. Hopefully it will be answered on this thread. But I doubt it.

**********
John here: (You need to do some study on your Eph. 4:30 posted verse! Read it a few times. What comes before sealed?)
But, seeing that you know so much, there is no reason to respond. Revelation 3:16-17 explains what happens to these saved at one time Spewed out ones that know it all! What do they need Christ for now, huh?+ the other garbage!! Of: An eternally burning hell! :roll: Sunday sacredness! & the Soul that never dies!!

But, you have eternal life already made, so there is no need to be concerned when the person is already saved. ???Whatever![/quote:275fb]


20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:30


How does one receive the indwelling of the holy Spirit? By being born of the Spirit at repentence and belief in Jesus Christ. How does one become one that overcomes? By being born of the Spirit of God.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1 John 4:4

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:14-22

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 John 4:1-21