Is preaching once saved always saved helpful..

[Solo]

Paul's testimony of sin is found in Romans:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:7-25

Paul continues in Romans chapter 8:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:1-8

Who does Paul say are those that are in the Spirit? Read on in chapter 8:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

Sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:11-14

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: I will continue on for a few more posts here. But your attitude rakes me the wrong way!! This remark for starters:

"Hopefully, all born of the Spirit believers keep a log book of their sins so that they can have them all confessed and forgiven so that Jesus doesn't have to be crucified a second, third, fourth, etc. etc time since his first death was not good enough to pay for all sins of the believers. "

See Hebrews 6:6 for ones re/crucifixion of Christ!! And your book of records? See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:12. And be sure to read Revelation 22:18-19, if your name has ever been placed there in the first place???

By the way: You asked for scripture. God has seen fit to send you many more scripture than what you have ever posted up!

And: You did not ask, but I will say it anyhow. There is no way that I could ever be convinced that you are Born Again. And, who cares what I think, huh)

 

[Solo]

John here: I will continue on for a few more posts here. But your attitude rakes me the wrong way!! This remark for starters:

"Hopefully, all born of the Spirit believers keep a log book of their sins so that they can have them all confessed and forgiven so that Jesus doesn't have to be crucified a second, third, fourth, etc. etc time since his first death was not good enough to pay for all sins of the believers. "

See Hebrews 6:6 for ones re/crucifixion of Christ!! And your book of records? See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:12. And be sure to read Revelation 22:18-19, if your name has ever been placed there in the first place???

By the way: You asked for scripture. God has seen fit to send you many more scripture than what you have ever posted up!

And: You did not ask, but I will say it anyhow. There is no way that I could ever be convinced that you are Born Again. And, who cares what I think, huh)

Since you don't believe that I am born again, then you better have prayed for my soul before you attacked my name. Remember false witness is a sin. Now you have another one to confess so that you don't lose your salvation.

 

[thessalonian]

That would bring us to the context of this thread. What sin is it that will take the salvation away from a believer? And What does the scripture teach about a believer being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit?

Well let's look at the servant who was doing good in Luke 12 when the Master came and was rewarded. For posterity:

[43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[45] But if THAT servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

Note this servant fell. There can be no question about it and noone has even tried to answer this passage on this board, though I have mentioned it at least a couple of times. Now was it the first act of gluttony that caused the fall? How about the first act of drunkenness or abuse of other servants? We cannot say. All we can say is he headed down a path of unrepentant sin and eventually it caused him to have an evil heart. Perhaps the first sin was not mortal for a mortal sin is not just an action, but an action with a will and full knowledge behind it. It seems that he had knowledge since the scriptures do call him "the one who knew". But where was his will? It is difficult to say when his will became apart from God but this is the danger of the path that begins down the "well I sinned but I am assured of my salvation anyway" mentality. It is a changed heart, one that has been blinded by it's sins which is what sin does. Eventually we become enslaved by it and it becomes our god. If grace were irresistable this could never happen, but that it happened to the faithful servant should make us tremble. Let he who thinks he stands watch out, lest he fall! When the master comes find yourself with a repentant heart that does not demand salvation because of a percieved gaurantee, but truly calls upon the mercy of God.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

That would bring us to the context of this thread. What sin is it that will take the salvation away from a believer? And What does the scripture teach about a believer being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit?

Well let's look at the servant who was doing good in Luke 12 when the Master came and was rewarded. For posterity:

[43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[45] But if THAT servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

Note this servant fell. There can be no question about it and noone has even tried to answer this passage on this board, though I have mentioned it at least a couple of times. Now was it the first act of gluttony that caused the fall? How about the first act of drunkenness or abuse of other servants? We cannot say. All we can say is he headed down a path of unrepentant sin and eventually it caused him to have an evil heart. Perhaps the first sin was not mortal for a mortal sin is not just an action, but an action with a will and full knowledge behind it. It seems that he had knowledge since the scriptures do call him "the one who knew". But where was his will? It is difficult to say when his will became apart from God but this is the danger of the path that begins down the "well I sinned but I am assured of my salvation anyway" mentality. It is a changed heart, one that has been blinded by it's sins which is what sin does. Eventually we become enslaved by it and it becomes our god. If grace were irresistable this could never happen, but that it happened to the faithful servant should make us tremble. Let he who thinks he stands watch out, lest he fall! When the master comes find yourself with a repentant heart that does not demand salvation because of a percieved gaurantee, but truly calls upon the mercy of God.

Blessings

When Jesus taught the Jews about the Kingdom of God he used parables. The Jews recognized that there was a God in heaven and their sins were atoned for by the sacrifice of blemish free animals. These Jews were the chosen people of God, but from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the Gentiles were now able to be grafted into the family of God. Servants could well be those that will be awaiting the Messiah but miss him because of their unbelief in Jesus. The following scripture from Paul's writings to the Thessalonians addresses the coming of Jesus and the watching for him.


1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10

Believers are of the day and not of the night. Believers have overcome the darkness by believing in he who is the light, the way, the truth.

 

[thessalonian]

When Jesus taught the Jews about the Kingdom of God he used parables. The Jews recognized that there was a God in heaven and their sins were atoned for by the sacrifice of blemish free animals. These Jews were the chosen people of God, but from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the Gentiles were now able to be grafted into the family of God. Servants could well be those that will be awaiting the Messiah but miss him because of their unbelief in Jesus. The following scripture from Paul's writings to the Thessalonians addresses the coming of Jesus and the watching for him.

The passage is one senario and then another superimposed on it. Not two different ones. If it were two different ones, I would consider your point. It is apparent that the servant is faithful and then later became unfaithful. He had a good heart and would have been found doing well. This is not the picture of someone who was never saved in the first place. Or are you claiming that OSAS was not in force at this point.

Your verse for me fits perfectly with Lukes Gospel. To be sober is to be vigilant and protect onesself from falling in to the darkness by being open to the grace of God.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

When Jesus taught the Jews about the Kingdom of God he used parables. The Jews recognized that there was a God in heaven and their sins were atoned for by the sacrifice of blemish free animals. These Jews were the chosen people of God, but from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the Gentiles were now able to be grafted into the family of God. Servants could well be those that will be awaiting the Messiah but miss him because of their unbelief in Jesus. The following scripture from Paul's writings to the Thessalonians addresses the coming of Jesus and the watching for him.

The passage is one senario and then another superimposed on it. Not two different ones. If it were two different ones, I would consider your point. It is apparent that the servant is faithful and then later became unfaithful. He had a good heart and would have been found doing well. This is not the picture of someone who was never saved in the first place. Or are you claiming that OSAS was not in force at this point.

Your verse for me fits perfectly with Lukes Gospel. To be sober is to be vigilant and protect onesself from falling in to the darkness by being open to the grace of God.

Blessings

Paul writes to the Thessalonians that there are two types of individuals; those in the darkness and those in the light. Verse 4 is pretty plain:

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The key of these verses in 1 Thessalonians, chapter 5 is the fact that the brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake them as a thief. They are instead children of light, children of the day: not of the night, nor darkness. The Lord will not overtake those of the light as he does those of the darkness. Check out the following verse recorded in John about who are condemned:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21

Those that are in the darkness, perhaps those that think that they are in the light, fade into iniquity when they determine that the Lord delays his coming. Remember that there will be those that come to Jesus in that day, saying, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Klee shay]

I have bee a christian for 9 years, I have always questioned the once saved always saved thing. If you look back at the 2000 years of the church history, do we really thing that the body of christ preached this like it does in the 20th and 21 century, the reformation didn't start till 1515. It just seems like everything that the roman catholic church believed was denounced by the protestant reformation out of spite. Even early church fathers didn't agree with what is being preached in this era... personally I'm still searching for what the bible says, there are a lot of verses that speak for both ways, but this era of christainity won't touch verses that don't go with the comfortable once saved always saved doctrine.

I think the Once Save Always Saved stance stems from the expectation that once crucified always cruficied; and that as the body of Christ we are kept by that crucificition.

I don't know what the OSAS doctrine states specifically nor do I follow any specific teachings; but at layman's glance from the dicussions I've seen involving OSAS theology, the basics run closely to what I view as well. In that in Christ we are saved, kept and used for the purpose of his glory.

Is it harmful to teach OSAS? I'd say no more harmful than teaching anything which stems from the bible which is translated by man. The whole truth was promised after the comforter came - that is what Christ said before he was crucified. So therefore the bible is part of that truth but not all. Even in possessing the Holy Spirit (comforter) however, not all will be revealed until the Kingdom of God is at hand.

So really; we are made powerless and redundant by our own understanding of the scriptures anyway. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand them better, but to say one translation is more accurate or useful than another is really leaning on our own understanding of the scriptures; rather than the Lord's understanding.

I cannot profess to know anything other than what the Lord reveals to me, and even then it is only part of his plan anyway.

If we got it all and knew it all then we would be Gods ourselves and that would defeat the whole purpose of God sending mankind to earth in the first place, to learn the responsibility of possessing the knowledge we took under our own authority.

Even under God's law in Christ, mankind still tries to take back the authority and call it salvation according to man's translation of the scritpures. OSAS or any other doctrine/translation, for that matter. We still try to own that which is God's and call ourselves his representitives to lay claim to that authority.

This is all part of God's plan though and we're fulfilling it as ought be.

 

[thessalonian]

When Jesus taught the Jews about the Kingdom of God he used parables. The Jews recognized that there was a God in heaven and their sins were atoned for by the sacrifice of blemish free animals. These Jews were the chosen people of God, but from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the Gentiles were now able to be grafted into the family of God. Servants could well be those that will be awaiting the Messiah but miss him because of their unbelief in Jesus. The following scripture from Paul's writings to the Thessalonians addresses the coming of Jesus and the watching for him.

The passage is one senario and then another superimposed on it. Not two different ones. If it were two different ones, I would consider your point. It is apparent that the servant is faithful and then later became unfaithful. He had a good heart and would have been found doing well. This is not the picture of someone who was never saved in the first place. Or are you claiming that OSAS was not in force at this point.

Your verse for me fits perfectly with Lukes Gospel. To be sober is to be vigilant and protect onesself from falling in to the darkness by being open to the grace of God.

Blessings

Paul writes to the Thessalonians that there are two types of individuals; those in the darkness and those in the light. Verse 4 is pretty plain:

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The key of these verses in 1 Thessalonians, chapter 5 is the fact that the brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake them as a thief. They are instead children of light, children of the day: not of the night, nor darkness. The Lord will not overtake those of the light as he does those of the darkness. Check out the following verse recorded in John about who are condemned:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21

Those that are in the darkness, perhaps those that think that they are in the light, fade into iniquity when they determine that the Lord delays his coming. Remember that there will be those that come to Jesus in that day, saying, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

sigh. Your proof texting bud. Take a birds eye view.


Your point assumes that they cannot become children of darkness once again. Yet I have shown you many warnings in which Paul says things like "let anyone who thinks he stands WATCH OUT lest he fall". Do you think everyone that Paul was speaking to in Thessalonians was a true believer? We are children of light. We have no excuse if we turn from Christ. He tells the Galations (whom he says in the book of Galatians later I believe, that they were "standing in the truth"" before and have fallen from grace. Once again I don't see how one can fall from what they were never in. A man standing under a tree can be said to have fallen from it if he was never in it? This is silly.


By the way if some think they are in the light but are really in the darkness, perhaps you are fooling yourself.

 

[John the Baptist]

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23
_________________
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God...
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

********
John here:
What would be ones 'motive' in stopping at Matthew 7:23 "I never knew you" with highlights & not using the Masters Words of Matthew 7:22??

Are we to believe that these ones who 'prophesied in 'my' name? and cast out devils? and in my name doing many wonderful works? are done by beelzebub??? Come on, get real!!!

We see anything & everything to support the devil doctrine of once saved, always saved! : 2 Corinthians 4:2

But the WORD of GOD states plainly for the Born Again one that these ones (at least!) had been:
"ONCE ENLIGHTENED" Had been: "TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT" Had been: *MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST"!! Hebrews 6:4-6.
Then, the devil just keep on & on, with his stuff!! :

And for the Born Again one who REALLY WANTS BIBLE VERSES???? (again see 2 Corinthians 4:2)
Another history repeated verse comes into the 'Converted Mind! It is from 2 Peter 2:19-22. Take note that these ones PROMISE THEM LIBERTY (is that not what the devil's teaching is about? eternal security HOGWASH!!!) Read it!

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning.

For it ha been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn again from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

OK: Where does that leave the professed ones of Loving Christ with the devil's lying doctrine of O.S.A.S.?? Right in the middle of Revelation 17:5!! Add some more stuff like Sun. sacredness & the burning of any in hell on & on in eternity!! (see Obadiah 16) And they are not 'entangled therein, and overcome'?? Get real!!

Yet, it is the fold that has made ship/wreck, it still has some of Christ's sincere ignorant ones who have passed, & who will yet leave, that are to be saved!! Revelation 18:4.!!_

---John

 

[Solo]

What God does can not be undone by man. God created a new creature by the new birth of the Spirit, and believers are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. Since this is the case, each and every believer should not sin, or ignore the indwelling of the Holy Spirit thereby grieving him. Jesus said that he would never leave a believer. No man will persuade you to the truth, only God himself will just as in my case. I once thought the same as you, but now I know the truth.

I posted all of the proof texts necessary. Now its up to you all to study.

Keep in mind that you don't have a good stand on which sin will send you back to hell, and you don't have a good stand on why that sin wasn't paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus only had to die once for your sins, and if Hebrew 6 is a proof text that you could lose your salvation, why does Jesus tell the seven churches to repent from their sin if the son of God can't be crucified afresh.

 

[thessalonian]

I posted all of the proof texts necessary. Now its up to you all to study.

Yes, I know. Your very good at "proof texting" while ignoring the MANY verses I posted to the contrary.

[quote:bf17b]Keep in mind that you don't have a good stand on which sin will send you back to hell, and you don't have a good stand on why that sin wasn't paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ.

Back to hell? I don't recall saying anyone went "back to hell". That would imply the got out and I don't believe that can happen. Jesus did completely pay for our sins on the cross. Where did I say otherwise. Now the question I have for you is if the payment was complete and did not need application to our lives today then why was he unable to save everybody? After all that is clearly stated as the will of God that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth?

[quote:bf17b] Jesus only had to die once for your sins, and if Hebrew 6 is a proof text that you could lose your salvation, why does Jesus tell the seven churches to repent from their sin if the son of God can't be crucified afresh.

[/quote:bf17b][/quote:bf17b]

I would call this deceptive. You are attempting to have people think I only posted one verse in favor of falling from grace. You never did answer how one who was never in a tree can be said to have fallen from the tree like Paul says the Galations have "fallen from grace" by the way. Anyone who wants to go back and read can see that I have used many verses and have not come close to exhausting them to show that one can in fact, like Paul says "fall from grace". Now, why don't you answer Heb 6, which you never did.

By the way, since you said yesterday that essentially things were a bit different from when the Gospel was with the Jews to after the resurrection when the Gentiles were included, can you tell me, when did OSAS become effective? Did the Jews in the Old Testament live under OSAS?

Thanks.

 

[Solo]

I posted all of the proof texts necessary. Now its up to you all to study.

Yes, I know. Your very good at "proof texting" while ignoring the MANY verses I posted to the contrary.

Thank you. I answered your verses with other verses. Just prayerfully study the verses of scripture that I posted in context, allow the Holy Spirit to teach you his truth.

Keep in mind that you don't have a good stand on which sin will send you back to hell, and you don't have a good stand on why that sin wasn't paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ.

Back to hell? I don't recall saying anyone went "back to hell". That would imply the got out and I don't believe that can happen. Jesus did completely pay for our sins on the cross. Where did I say otherwise.

You have been implying that the OSAS doctrine is false. Forgive me if I misread your understanding. It seems that you do believe that once a person is born of the Spirit, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Your previous post gave me the idea that you believed that a child of the light could return to being a child of darkness:

Your point assumes that they cannot become children of darkness once again. Yet I have shown you many warnings in which Paul says things like "let anyone who thinks he stands WATCH OUT lest he fall". Do you think everyone that Paul was speaking to in Thessalonians was a true believer? We are children of light. We have no excuse if we turn from Christ. He tells the Galations (whom he says in the book of Galatians later I believe, that they were "standing in the truth"" before and have fallen from grace. Once again I don't see how one can fall from what they were never in. A man standing under a tree can be said to have fallen from it if he was never in it? This is silly.

Children of Light cannot return to become children of darkness. Children of light can sin and live in the flesh and look no different than the children of darkness, but they have not fallen from salvation. There rewards will be less, and they will be judged for their "works", but they will not be condemned to hell, as will the children of the darkness.

Now the question I have for you is if the payment was complete and did not need application to our lives today then why was he unable to save everybody? After all that is clearly stated as the will of God that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth?

God established that those that are guilty of sin would pay the penalty of sin; the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23).
In answer to your question as to why was God unable to save everybody; God gave the means by which all mankind could be saved from the condemnation in store for all sinners. Not all mankind accepts God's way. Note what Jesus said.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21

Jesus only had to die once for your sins, and if Hebrew 6 is a proof text that you could lose your salvation, why does Jesus tell the seven churches to repent from their sin if the son of God can't be crucified afresh.

I would call this deceptive. You are attempting to have people think I only posted one verse in favor of falling from grace.

Your verses of scripture that you have quoted in favor of falling from grace speak for themselves. I am only attempting to submit to you and others my understanding based on experience with the Word of God being the absolute end to all questions. Keep in mind that satan used the Word of God to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, however, he took the scripture out of context and did not rightly divide the Word.

You never did answer how one who was never in a tree can be said to have fallen from the tree like Paul says the Galations have "fallen from grace" by the way. Anyone who wants to go back and read can see that I have used many verses and have not come close to exhausting them to show that one can in fact, like Paul says "fall from grace". Now, why don't you answer Heb 6, which you never did.

Falling from a tree doesn't mean a thing when comparing "falling from grace". The period of grace that we currently live in since the resurrection of Jesus Christ is an amazing period of time. Satan is defeated and all have the opportunity to experience the grace of God. Some refuse God's way and they fall from grace by accepting their own darkness as the way of life. God's grace exists for all to take advantage of, but many fall from this grace even after they know the correct way; they refuse to repent, believe, and follow Jesus. They never become born of the Spirit creatures.

Hebrews 6:4-8 states that it is impossible to renew again to repentance those who were once enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come if they should fall away, as they crucify "to themselves" the Son of God afresh putting him to an open shame.

What does this mean?

It says that anyone who has been enlightened (known of the truth), tasted the heavenly gift (understood the crucifixion of Jesus), partook of the Holy Ghost (experienced the conviction and presence of the Holy Spirit), tasted the good word of God (experienced the truth in the word of God), and the powers of the world to come (understood the way of the worlds to come), if they should fall away, that it would be impossible to repent again having the Son of God crucified again for their sins.

The seven churches recorded in Revelation had serious sin problems whereby Jesus told them to repent from where they were fallen from or he would remove their candlestick. Hebrews 6 says that it is impossible for those who have fallen to repent again since they crucify the Son of God afresh, but Jesus tells the Churches in Revelation to repent from where they have fallen. It looks like those of the Church can repent after falling, but Hebrews 6 seems to contradict. What gives.

I believe that Hebrews 6 is telling us one of two things. Either it is telling us that it is impossible for believers to repent for salvation because the crucifixion of Jesus paid the price for all sins yesterday, today, and tomorrow; or as Jesus taught in his parable of the sower and seeds, that some that heard the gospel readily accepted the truth, but it did not take root because of unbelief.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:5

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.Matthew 13:18-23

By the way, since you said yesterday that essentially things were a bit different from when the Gospel was with the Jews to after the resurrection when the Gentiles were included, can you tell me, when did OSAS become effective? Did the Jews in the Old Testament live under OSAS?
Thanks.

The Jews and Gentiles of the Old Testament era were saved the same then as they are now; by faith in God. Those in the Old Testament days did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. After Jesus' ascension came the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost to dwell within those that had come to believe; therefore they were sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.

God made a covenant with those before the law, during the law, and after the law. We live in the era of grace after the law, and have a covenant with God by believing in Jesus Christ. Those of the era of the Law have a different covenant with God, but is just as relevant to their redemption. Those before the Law covenanted also with God to their redemption. All of mankind in these eras are saved by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Note that the 144,000 Jews are sealed in the latter days.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Well done Solo!!!

 

[John the Baptist]

Well done Solo!!!

*******
John here:
Heb. states that these ones ALL DIED [IN] THE FAITH! :fadein: We are still living 'me' thinks, and the heavenly record 'books' are not finished in their writing as of yet??? See Revelation 20:11-13 & Daniel 7:9-10 for record books that are [not finished until 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 resurrection!]

Anyway, whatever? The promises of the Godhead are Eternal COVENANT CONDITIONAL. Hebrews 13:20. That includes ETERNITY! The ones doing with Salvation's EVERLASTING doing's! Revelation 14:6. (If one could just see & understand what the Godhead is revealing here??

How could perfectly created Lucifer fall!!!!!! (see Ezekiel 28:15) And the tree in the garden's testing on. See the devil quoting a 'perfect old testament promise to Christ in Matthew 4:6 with the Master giving him & us, the ETERNAL promise CONDITION!

Then comes ones free decision to believe & 'teach' what you want? Regardless of what the Godhead say's and requires??? (see Revelation 22:18-19:

 

[John the Baptist]

See if this post from another site helps you to 'see' G.CA.???--John____________

Case in point: Pay apt attention, OK?

[Quote:] Luke 5:23 [IS] Christ stating a Truth!

"Whether is easier, (WHICH IS TRUTH?) to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, I say unto thee, Arise, and take thy couch, and go unto thine house."

Now: No surface reading. Are your FORGIVEN YOUR SINS? (Yet??!) If they are, then why must you not also be healed of whatever problem one has?? One cannot have it BOTH ways! If you are not a bodily living corvette right now, then you are not yet forgiven your sins!!

(The question is not, are you forgiven your sins in FAITH, Heb. 11:13)

It is true that one has [the Ernest of the Holy Spirit]. (*if he Is Born Again)
But the record Books are Not CLEARED AWAY OF SIN until Christ does His Last Work as our High Priest. Baptism is just one doctrine of the many requirements of the knowledgeable sin. See Matthew 28:20!! (and the 7th. day Sabbath Covenant Commandment is yet another!)

The Heavenly Record books will find if any person's name's are retained or removed, and judged so, by their life of [Obedience or dis/obedience] lived here on earth! Ecclesiastes. 12:13-14.

---John

 

[thessalonian]

I answered your verses with other verses. Just prayerfully study the verses of scripture that I posted in context, allow the Holy Spirit to teach you his truth.

I call it trumping one verse with another. If you don't answer the first verse and just post a second one that is generally what it is. When one views scripture both as God's promise of salvation for faithtulness, i.e. one must take up his cross and follow Christ, keeping his eyes fixed on the one who can and will save him, then one is trusting in Christ for his salvation. When one views the verses that seem to say OSAS from the lens of God's providence, bringing about the salvation by grace of those that are predestinded for eternity in heaven, knowing that the only way we can know if we are one of these is if we persevere faith in grace, then the verses all fit together. If one views galations as an example where men focused on Christ but at some point went back to their Jewish roots of salvation of works of the law (not to be confused with the care of the widow and the orphan (see Is 1), then one sees that if we do not keep our eyes fixed on the savior and reject the grace that he freely gives we will end among the damned.

You have been implying that the OSAS doctrine is false. Forgive me if I misread your understanding. It seems that you do believe that once a person is born of the Spirit, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Your previous post gave me the idea that you believed that a child of the light could return to being a child of darkness:

Not implying at all. It is a damnable lie. A tradition of man. I simply don't know what "fallen from grace" means if it does not mean that one was in grace. Of course you refuse to answer though I have made this point time and time again. An envelope that is sealed can be unsealed.

Children of Light cannot return to become children of darkness. Children of light can sin and live in the flesh and look no different than the children of darkness, but they have not fallen from salvation. There rewards will be less, and they will be judged for their "works", but they will not be condemned to hell, as will the children of the darkness.

Says you. You use the conclusion to prove the premise. OSAS is true, therefore this is what the verse means. There is reward and loss of
In answer to your question as to why was God unable to save everybody; God gave the means by which all mankind could be saved from the condemnation in store for all sinners. Not all mankind accepts God's way. Note what Jesus said.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21

Grace is not irresistable is what you are telling me. Thanks, but I knew that and your OSAS doctrine cannot live without irresistable grace.

Blessings

More to come

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian wrote:

You never did answer how one who was never in a tree can be said to have fallen from the tree like Paul says the Galations have "fallen from grace" by the way. Anyone who wants to go back and read can see that I have used many verses and have not come close to exhausting them to show that one can in fact, like Paul says "fall from grace". Now, why don't you answer Heb 6, which you never did.

Solo wrote:
Falling from a tree doesn't mean a thing when comparing "falling from grace". The period of grace that we currently live in since the resurrection of Jesus Christ is an amazing period of time. Satan is defeated and all have the opportunity to experience the grace of God. Some refuse God's way and they fall from grace by accepting their own darkness as the way of life. God's grace exists for all to take advantage of, but many fall from this grace even after they know the correct way; they refuse to repent, believe, and follow Jesus. They never become born of the Spirit creatures.

It doesn't? The word fall means something different in scripture such that you can fall from what you were never in. Since you like to compartmentalize individual verses i will post 4-7 all together for you so you can see that you are wrong.

Gal 5
[4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
[5] For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
[7] You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


Severed. Hmmmm. That means cut from. How can one be severed from what he was not attached to? V. 7 "you were running well". It is quite apparent that Paul did in fact believe they were walking the walk. For him to say this they must have been producing fruit. For there is no way he would say "you were running well" otherwise. You shall know them by their fruites you know. Of course if they are no longer producing fruit then there is a problem. You no longer know them.

OSAS is refuted by simple rules of logic anyway. You do not believe that any man can infallibly interprut scripture. Yet you say you are 100% assured of salvation. But because you are not infallible in your interpretations and must give me conjecture and opinion, you are not 100% certain that any of your doctrines are true in the fist place. Let's say you are 90% certain that you see OSAS in the Bible. Are you 100% certain of your salvation. It cannot be. The Math doesn't work out.

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It depends of if you believe that we have more power than God. If so then sure...we can 'snatch' whatever we like away. If not then God has the power to keep us and preserve us till Christ returns.

I choose to have faith in God's power...mine is useless.

 

[Solo]

Also, you say OSAS is refuted by simple rules of logic. It seems "illogical" to me that God would actually snatch away from anyone the free, unmerited gift of Grace. It's one thing for someone to refuse it, but is it really God's nature to grant one salvation, then give it away? What do we have to do to recieve it and what can we do to lose it?

God has given all mankind the opportunity to become children of God. Inspite of mankind being sinners, God loved them first before men loved God. God's grace gave the way to heaven to all men, however, not all men want God's heaven. Many want their own heaven, therefore, the rebel against God and remain children of satan. There are no fence sitters in this world; an individual is either a child of satan or a child of God. Those born of the Spirit of God will not be cast out by God, even if they turn away from the truth. Those not born of the Spirit of God will be cast out by God even though they say they believe. The key is to be born again as Jesus taught.

How many individuals that you know that have been born have been able to be unborn? None.

Keep reading the word prayfully asking God for wisdom and understanding. If you are born again, he will endow you with his truth, over flowing your cup.