Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[GodsGrace]

Strongly agree . Cannot agree more. What you wrote is the very crux of what's going on today in Christian world. Badly needs to re interpret the NT message and covenant!

Jesus said we cannot serve HIM and mammon....
IOW,,,we are either on His side, living in HIS Kingdom...
or we belong to the world.

Having riches is not the sin...
loving them is the sin.
Loving them more than God is the sin.

The CC teaches that stealing from one's customers is one of the worst sins.
And this is the reason. Stealing for monetary gain means the person loves
money more than they love their very soul.

We cannot row two boats....
one will sink.

Jesus said to count the cost before deciding to be an disciple.
I never hear this being preached either.
Luke 14:28....

 

[Walpole]

Brother, I love you.

You are certainly entitled to your own perspective like everyone else. However, at this Forum, we have a Statement of Faith, which declares our position on the matter of scripture.


Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.


Please do not tear at the fabric of our community with such statements as ....




Please do not promote this idea here.


Just because God has chosen to reveal some unpleasant things in the Bible doesn’t mean they are not true.



Thank you.





JLB

It looks like the post has been deleted so I was not able to read the original post to which you responded.

I would posit that while St. Paul calls Scripture God-breathed / inspired by God (theopneustos), the early Church did not limit the only thing considered theopneustos to Scripture alone. For example, here is the Protestant scholar Dr. Craig Allert on the topic...

"Often, however, examples like those offered above are tempered by those who claim that the authors of the New Testament documents experienced a special kind of inspiration, which separates these documents from others of high regard in the early church. In this argument, appeal is made to 2 Timothy 3:16, which states, “All Scripture is inspired by God [theopneustos] and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. “ While a detailed examination of this important passage will be undertaken in chapter 6, a few words about the term translated “inspired by God” (NASB) or “God-breathed” (NIV) are in order here. Basically, the argument is that the biblical term theopneustos is reserved and used only in reference to the biblical documents, and that this is what gives these documents their unique authority. This argument is dependent, of course, on the understanding that the fathers understood and accepted this designation. If theopneustos was accepted as the unique designation for only canonical documents, then the implication follows that the fathers would be reluctant to apply that designation to anything other than canonical documents. An examination of the patristic literature, however, contradicts this argument.

"For example…The fifth-century ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431) issued a synodal epistle that describes the council’s condemnation of Nestorius as “their inspired decision” (auton theopneustou kriseos). At least some thought that the designation “inspired” (theopneustos) was appropriate enough to apply to non canonical writings, including a commentary, a synodical letter, and even an inscription on a tomb. It is high praise indeed for such documents if theopneustos was actually the special designation for only canonical documents.

"These three examples should give one pause when making the assertion that the early church reserved the term theopneustos for only the canonical documents because each of them uses the word theopneustos to describe something other than a canonical document. It is apparent, therefore, that while a document that eventually made it into the New Testament canon was considered inspired, this did not guarantee its inclusion because inspiration is not the unique possession of only the canonical documents.” - Craig Allert, A High View of Scripture? The Authority of the Bible and the Formation of the New Testament, pg. 64-65

Source
Dr. Allert's CV

 

[GodsGrace]

The Sheep are the Elect the goats the non elect. Christ died for the Sheep Jn 10 and not the goats, that is the difference.

You just can't seem to answer a question.
I believe it's because you CANNOT.

 

[GodsGrace]

False judas was never said to be of Christ Sheep. Judas is the son of perdition Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was a son of the devil Jn 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I don't care to discuss anything with you...
However,,,,you like to remember John 6:70 which was at THE END of Jesus' ministry...
But you do not pay attention to the BEGINNING of Jesus' ministry when, indeed, Judas was one of
the 12 that Jesus trusted.

Either Jesus was totally ignorant,
or Judas was saved at some point.

 

[GodsGrace]

It looks like posts are now being deleted. I guess differing opinions are not permitted here either now?

What posts do you think are being deleted?
This is not a practice of this site.

 

[brightfame52]

His Apostles are indeed a part of His Church, however not all the Church were His Apostles. He is specifically referring to His Apostles. His Apostles were in the world, and were given to Christ out of the world. They were given to Him for purpose, to be His Apostles. This is specific to the Twelve.

The “men you have given Me out of the world” refers specifically to the twelve Apostles, not all the body of Christ.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


Jesus manifested His Fathers name to His Apostles.


The point I am making is, you are taking a passage that is specific to the Apostles and trying to apply it to all the Church.


When we examine all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we can see the fullness of truth pertaining to this subject.


Are you willing to address these scriptures that pertain to eternal life?


His disciples heard the Gospel and believed and therefore obeyed it, (kept it), in which they followed Him and inherited eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


When we take all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we see that ultimately it requires enduring to the end, being faithful even unto death, hearing and obeying His voice, that manifests in following His commandments and teachings.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


”I know Him” is another way of saying I have eternal life.


The Lord gives us eternal life, which is knowing Him, being joined to Him, in which we are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


However, there is a condition to receiving His gift of eternal life.


It is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



The Lord calls us out of the world, out of darkness, into His marvelous light, through the Gospel.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

Hearing, (listening with the intent of obeying what is heard) that results in following Him, and enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


Becoming a slave to God and His righteousness in which we bear fruit to holiness.


But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Eternal life is ultimately given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



Hear the words of Jesus Christ, as to who will come forth in the resurrection of life; eternal life


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When we take into account all the verses and the condition given for obtaining eternal life, we see the truth.


Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.



A thorough read of Matthew 25:31-46 is a good place to start.




JLB

The Whole Body, every member of Christs Body, were given to Christ to give Eternal Life to Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jesus prayed for them also here Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these[the twelve] alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Walpole]

I don't care to discuss anything with you...
However,,,,you like to remember John 6:70 which was at THE END of Jesus' ministry...
But you do not pay attention to the BEGINNING of Jesus' ministry when, indeed, Judas was one of
the 12 that Jesus trusted.

Either Jesus was totally ignorant,
or Judas was saved at some point.

Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

- A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
- An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
- "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
- Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
- "Chosen" (John 6:70)
- A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
- A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

"So Jesus said to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

In Psalm 41:9 ---> “Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.”



Calvinism destroyed...
1. One cannot "fall away" (Acts 1:25) from that which one never belonged.
2. Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.


If Calvinism were true, Calvinists would be pointing to Judas and arguing he is enjoying heaven right now. He would be their poster boy and patron saint.

 

[GodsGrace]

It looks like the post has been deleted so I was not able to read the original post to which you responded.

I would posit that while St. Paul calls Scripture God-breathed / inspired by God (theopneustos), the early Church did not limit the only thing considered theopneustos to Scripture alone. For example, here is the Protestant scholar Dr. Craig Allert on the topic...

"Often, however, examples like those offered above are tempered by those who claim that the authors of the New Testament documents experienced a special kind of inspiration, which separates these documents from others of high regard in the early church. In this argument, appeal is made to 2 Timothy 3:16, which states, “All Scripture is inspired by God [theopneustos] and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. “ While a detailed examination of this important passage will be undertaken in chapter 6, a few words about the term translated “inspired by God” (NASB) or “God-breathed” (NIV) are in order here. Basically, the argument is that the biblical term theopneustos is reserved and used only in reference to the biblical documents, and that this is what gives these documents their unique authority. This argument is dependent, of course, on the understanding that the fathers understood and accepted this designation. If theopneustos was accepted as the unique designation for only canonical documents, then the implication follows that the fathers would be reluctant to apply that designation to anything other than canonical documents. An examination of the patristic literature, however, contradicts this argument.

"For example…The fifth-century ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431) issued a synodal epistle that describes the council’s condemnation of Nestorius as “their inspired decision” (auton theopneustou kriseos). At least some thought that the designation “inspired” (theopneustos) was appropriate enough to apply to non canonical writings, including a commentary, a synodical letter, and even an inscription on a tomb. It is high praise indeed for such documents if theopneustos was actually the special designation for only canonical documents.

"These three examples should give one pause when making the assertion that the early church reserved the term theopneustos for only the canonical documents because each of them uses the word theopneustos to describe something other than a canonical document. It is apparent, therefore, that while a document that eventually made it into the New Testament canon was considered inspired, this did not guarantee its inclusion because inspiration is not the unique possession of only the canonical documents.” - Craig Allert, A High View of Scripture? The Authority of the Bible and the Formation of the New Testament, pg. 64-65

Source
Dr. Allert's CV

I believe JLB was referring to a different poster.
Statements that are not in agreement with the statement of faith can be deleted.

BTW,,,,the above is correct and I agree with it...of course!

 

[Fastfredy0]

..And Jesus saith unto them, 'All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'" (Mark 14:7, 27)

Mark 14:7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do something good to them; but you will not always have Me. I have no idea why you are using this verse ????????????????

I think you mean Mark 14:17 When it was evening, He came with the twelve [disciples].
Mark 14:27 Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away [and be ashamed and be afraid to be associated with Me as disciples], because it is written, ‘I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’

Hmmm, you conveniently?/mistakenly? left out Mark 14:26 After they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

So here we have the conflation of the meeting at the LAST SUPPER to some event that occurred afterwards. Thus the errant assumption that Judas Iscariot was present when Mark 14:27 is stated and the stretch of the imagination that everything stated as a subsequent time was relevant to that spoken at the last supper.

and, as they say in the commercials, "But wait, there's more" ...
John 13:30 After taking the piece of bread, he went out immediately; and it was night.
31 So when Judas had left, Jesus said, “Now is [the time for] the Son of Man [to be] glorified, and God is glorified in Him;
...... so here in John we have more facts about the last supper. Apparently, Judas leaves before the party is over. So, even if we didn't conflate two events into one as shown above, we have no way to know when Judas left the Supper relative to when Christ's statements were made.

Two more minor issues:
It is with caution that one supports doctrine from narrative scripture.
The TWELVE at times refers to the name of the group and does not necessarily mean each member of the TWELVE. I can say I met with the NEW YORK YANKEES, but this does not mean that everyone on the NEW YORK YANKEE team was there and I met with each of them.

I won't deal with Matt. 5:10 and 16 except to say you may have conflated two different events into one ... and this analogy is about sheep and wolves and not sheep and goats.

Other verses containing SHEEP
John 10:3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. ....
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; ....
Interesting, Judas by your definition was a sheep and sheep follow Christ. Makes me wonder what your definition of FOLLOW CHRIST means. Like, with followers like that, who needs enemies

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. .... interesting...
If Judas was one of Christ's sheep then these verses support Unlimited Atonement.
If Judas was NOT one of Christ's sheep then these verses support Limited Atonement.

Matt. 18:12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
Luke 15:4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
... Interesting, if Judas was one of Christ's sheep one would think Christ left the 99 to find Judas and was unsuccessful. Interesting...

Luke 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' .... well, I guess the sheep (Judas) got was never found

 

[brightfame52]

Do you believe Peter was the devil?


Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Judas was a human being, opposing the cause of God.


That is what the word devil means.

Strongs 1228 - Diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas was called to reign with Christ and the other 11 Apostles, but became a traitor.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29


Judas had a choice to be faithful and continue as an apostle with the others but instead choose to become a guide for those who arrested Jesus, in exchange for money.


“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” Acts 1:16-17


He fell by transgression.


to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
Acts 1:25



JLB

Jesus didnt say Peter was the devil. He said only one of the twelve was a devil. Jn 6:70

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Are you suggesting Jesus made a mistake and should have said " and two of you are devils" ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

- A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
- An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
- "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
- Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
- "Chosen" (John 6:70)
- A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
- A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

"So Jesus said to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

In Psalm 41:9 ---> “Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.”



Calvinism destroyed...
1. One cannot "fall away" (Acts 1:25) from that which one never belonged.
2. Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.


If Calvinism were true, Calvinists would be pointing to Judas and arguing he is enjoying heaven right now. He would be their poster boy and patron saint.

Agreed 100%

Great post.

 

[Walpole]

What posts do you think are being deleted?
This is not a practice of this site.

The one JBL replied to here ---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...-really-a-free-gift-of-god.83853/post-1603502


I was hoping this site would not join the plethora of other sites where differing opinions are silenced and deleted. If posts here will now be edited / deleted, I'll probably just leave.

 

[brightfame52]

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, 'Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.'... 'Behold, I send you [the twelve] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.'" (Matthew 10:5, 16)


"And in the evening he cometh with the twelve...And Jesus saith unto them, 'All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'" (Mark 14:7, 27)


Once again, if the doctrines of Calvinism were true, you would be pointing to Judas Iscariot as the poster boy.

Judas was not called a Sheep, he was a chosen apostle. The word apostle means sent forth, which he was, but a Sheep he was not. He was not even a believer in Christ Jn 6:64

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[GodsGrace]

The one JBL replied to here ---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...-really-a-free-gift-of-god.83853/post-1603502


I was hoping this site would not join the plethora of other sites where differing opinions are silenced and deleted. If posts here will now be edited / deleted, I'll probably just leave.

Different opinions are welcomed here.
I don't think we're joining other sites and I do believe the administrators have the opinion that discussion is good.

The other poster.....whose post was deleted (I just checked) had made a statement that scripture is not inspired.
This is flatly against the Statement of Faith, and is also a dangerous idea, I must say.

With that said,,,I must also add that the other poster is loved on this site and will always be welcomed here.
Just as you are....even though I'm sure we will disagree on some matters. (I mean you and I).

 

[GodsGrace]

Judas was not called a Sheep, he was a chosen apostle. The word apostle means sent forth, which he was, but a Sheep he was not. He was not even a believer in Christ Jn 6:64

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Who they were THAT BELIEVED NOT is NOT referring to Judas but to some in the crowd following Jesus that did not believe in Him.


60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?
62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.


Who are the disciples mentioned in verse 60?

You may want to go back even further to verse 53...but 60 will suffice.

CONTEXT....as I'm always told.
WHO THEY WERE and WHO IT WAS is referring to two different categories.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

- A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
- An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
- "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
- Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
- "Chosen" (John 6:70)
- A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
- A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

Agreed (except "sheep" as shown previously)

Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

Lacks foundation and definition. It implies God makes mistakes and His plans can be thwarted which is contrary to the God of Scripture.

"So Jesus said to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

Lacks definition of the condition "you who have followed me". Define "you", define "followed". Probably relies on conflation of other events into one event as previously attested to.

1. One cannot "fall away" (Acts 1:25) from that which one never belonged.

24 They prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know all hearts [their thoughts, motives, desires], show us which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship which Judas left to go to his own place [of evil].”
This is a contradiction, as you stated above that Judas was an apostle and more importantly the verse said Judas was an apostle... thus he could fall away from that appointment.

2. Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.

Agreed, as we all do until, if you are among the elect, God causes you to repent.

If Calvinism were true, Calvinists would be pointing to Judas and arguing he is enjoying heaven right now. He would be their poster boy and patron saint.

*giggles*

 

[JLB]

Great post.

You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged.

:nod

 

[JLB]

The Whole Body, every member of Christs Body, were given to Christ to give Eternal Life to Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Yes, I agree Jesus has authority to give eternal life to the ones the Father gave Him out of this world.


Jesus goes on to clarify that those who the Father gave Him out of this world were His twelve disciples.

The Father gave Him twelve men in which to disciple and send out to continue His work of preaching the Gospel and making disciples.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. John 17:6-19

• Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

As we all can see, the context is clear. The men Jesus is referring to specifically the phrase “Those whom You gave Me“ refers His twelve disciples. Their purpose was to fulfill the great commission and teach their disciples all things that Jesus taught them.


My point:

They were given to Him by His Father for purpose, not for salvation. Jesus continually prayed for them. He prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail.

Eternal life is not automatic, as we see in the life of Judas Iscariot.

Eternal life comes at the end of a faithful life, in which they and we do not fall away.


You are attempting to take these words out of context, and use them to prop up your theory that eternal life is “given” to people without them hearing, and believing the Gospel.

Eternal salvation is given with a condition... that condition is to obey Jesus Christ.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



The Apostle Paul says it this way —


But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27



Peter also —


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

Again, I ask you to consider these verses as well as all the verses that that pant a complete picture of those who will inherit eternal life, and thereby receive the salvation of their soul.



Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus didnt say Peter was the devil. He said only one of the twelve was a devil. Jn 6:70

Jesus said to Peter, Get behind me Satan.


Is Peter Satan?


Do you believe Judas was a human being or a demon?



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Who they were THAT BELIEVED NOT is NOT referring to Judas but to some in the crowd following Jesus that did not believe in Him.


60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?
62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.


Who are the disciples mentioned in verse 60?

You may want to go back even further to verse 53...but 60 will suffice.

CONTEXT....as I'm always told.
WHO THEY WERE and WHO IT WAS is referring to two different categories.

Okay.