Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[brightfame52]

Of course not.
You've been brainwashed not to.

Here's something YOUR God does to humans....
I hope your church has taught you this at some point in their preaching....


There are two species of calling, for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike
EVEN THOSE FOR WHOM HE DESIGNS THE CALL TO BE A SAVOR OF DEATH and the ground for A SEVERER CONDEMNATION.
...Sometimes [God] communicates [an internal illumination] also to those whom He enlightens only for a short time, and whom afterwards, IN JUST PUNISHMENT
FOR THEIR INGRATITUDE, HE ABANDONS AND SMITES WITH GREATER BLINDNESS.

J. Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


It's really a wonderful God you are serving...
isn't it?

And this God does for HIS GLORY....
IOW,,,He tortures persons so HE could be glorified.
Sounds like a wonderful God to be serving.

Brainwashed because I dont see the words offer in Jn 3:16 ? Lol, I believe you have been brainwashed into seeing a offer being made in Jn 3:16 because its just not there.

 

[GodsGrace]

I explained it in an article by R C Sproul.

Double” Predestination​

by R.C. Sproul
“A horrible decree… .” “Most ruthless statement… .” “A terrible theological theory… .” “An illegitimate inference of logic… .” These and other similar epithets have been used frequently to articulate displeasure and revulsion at the Reformed doctrine of double predestination. Particularly abhorrent to many is the notion that God would predestinate (in any sense) the doom of the reprobate.

Sproul is saying that the Reformed DO teach double predestination.
He says that this is particularly abhorrent to many....
what is abhorrent?: the notion that God would predestinate (in any sense) the doom of the reprobate.
Sproul even quotes some misgivings of the non-calvinist:
"A horrible decree"
"Most ruthless statement"
"A terrible theological theory"
He said that THESE AND OTHER similar epithets have been used frequestly to articulate the displease some feel toward
double predestination.

I also quoted John Calvin....
I mean
WHO knows more about John Calvin about Calvinism???

Despite fervent reliable, you insist on falsely attributing double predestination to Calvinism. I understand people getting it wrong, I don't understand why,when given proof, they don't correct themselves or show contrary facts. SHOW ME A PROMINENT REFORM PERSON THAT SUPPORTS DOUBLE PREDISTINATION. Just like when challenged to show proof Macarthur believes God creates evil, you won't do it except to say it's somewhere in some long sermon.

HOW can you give me proof?
EXPLAIN double predestination PLEASE.
In your very own words.
FF, I truly believe you don't understand the theology you're following.

So,
I've shown you a prominent person.....
First, there is biblical proof.....proof that God desires ALL to be saved DEPENDANT on HIS CONDITIONS.
Second...I've post John Calvin.....that's not enough...

Maybe you trust John Piper more than the bible and more than John Calvin?

OK. Here's John Piper on DOES GO SEND PERSONS TO HELL?

you should not chastise God. You know very well that God allows evil and righteously punishes those He tortures for ever. HE HAS THE POWER TO SAVE EVERYONE...I HOPE YOU BELIEVE THAT, yet you chastise Him for not doing so...i don't think you mean too, it's the consequence of your logic.

No, my friend.
I do NOT chastise God because I DO see Him as a just God.
It is YOU that does not see Him as a just God,,,
It is YOU that believes in unconditional election.

I DO believe that God ALLOWS EVIL.
I do NOT believe that God predestined man to do evil...which is what calvinists believe.
I DO believe that those that end up in h ell are there because they CHOSE to be there -- not because God decided to send them there for no reason.
I DO NOT chastise God for not saving everyone - even though it is His desire - because not everyone will adhere to HIS CONDITIONS if they wish to be saved.

Please read the above carefully.
My logic is concurrent with traditional and main-line Christianity.
It is the reformed that does not agree with traditional and main-line Christianity.

As to Macarthur....
It's just one hour....And the answer is in the first 10 minutes....
Enjoy.

 

[GodsGrace]

dble

 

[GodsGrace]

Brainwashed because I dont see the words offer in Jn 3:16 ? Lol, I believe you have been brainwashed into seeing a offer being made in Jn 3:16 because its just not there.

You love John 3:16....
but you didn't reply to the following...
and, of course, you won't:

Wondering posted:

Here's something YOUR God does to humans....
I hope your church has taught you this at some point in their preaching....


There are two species of calling, for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike
EVEN THOSE FOR WHOM HE DESIGNS THE CALL TO BE A SAVOR OF DEATH and the ground for A SEVERER CONDEMNATION.
...Sometimes [God] communicates [an internal illumination] also to those whom He enlightens only for a short time, and whom afterwards, IN JUST PUNISHMENT
FOR THEIR INGRATITUDE, HE ABANDONS AND SMITES WITH GREATER BLINDNESS.

J. Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


It's really a wonderful God you are serving...
isn't it?

And this God does for HIS GLORY....
IOW,,,He tortures persons so HE could be glorified.
Sounds like a wonderful God to be serving.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm, so you believe in WORKS Salvation? ... hopefully just a lack of definition of what GRACE ALONE means. Perhaps you should define it.

Always asking for definitions of words.
Know why?
Because, for some reason......., some of us have changed the meaning of words.

Like for instance:
ALL MEN
THE WHOLE WORLD
EVERYONE
DRAW
etc.

I will NOT explain grace alone because everyone on this forum knows what it means.
I also did not say I believe in works salvation.

Please show us where Jesus said we are saved by grace alone......
I hear Jesus telling us what TO DO to be saved and/or remain saved.

Jesus spoke about being born again maybe 2 or 3 times during His ministry.
He spoke about being a member of the Kingdom of God over 100 times.

To be a member of the Kingdom, we must adhere to the rules of the Kingdom.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Easily, because they were His Sheep God gave to Him.

Who were the goats in Sheep and Goats judgment day scenario . On what basis did Jesus divide them, and on what basis were Sheep invited into His heaven and the Goats rejected/ condemned ?
How does one know who then will be the Sheep and the Goats on the last day, which will be day of eternal terror for some , and jubilation for some others ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who were the goats in Sheep and Goats judgment day scenario . On what basis did Jesus divide them, and on what basis were Sheep invited into His heaven and the Goats rejected/ condemned ?
How does one know who then will be the Sheep and the Goats on the last day, which will be day of eternal terror for some , and jubilation for some others ?

Amen.
God let us know how to be saved.
He desires all to be saved and so He set down His conditions.
Those that desire to be saved, will be.
'night.

 

[brightfame52]

Who were the goats in Sheep and Goats judgment day scenario . On what basis did Jesus divide them, and on what basis were Sheep invited into His heaven and the Goats rejected/ condemned ?
How does one know who then will be the Sheep and the Goats on the last day, which will be day of eternal terror for some , and jubilation for some others ?

The Sheep are the Elect the goats the non elect. Christ died for the Sheep Jn 10 and not the goats, that is the difference.

 

[Fastfredy0]

EXPLAIN double predestination PLEASE.
In your very own words.
FF, I truly believe you don't understand the theology you're following.

I will explain it. I will simply quote from the site below which is a reform point of view and I agree with it.

"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul

"A horrible decree. . . ." "Most ruthless statement. . . ." "A terrible theological theory. . . ." "An illegitimate inference of logic. . . ." These and other ... %}

www.ligonier.org

The sites explains how the non-reform view of Double Predestination as Positive-Positive which means "There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God works in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative."
AGAIN, THIS IS NOT REFORMED POINT OF VIEW. Rather, this is how others present the REFORM point of view.

The Reformed View of Predestination
In sharp contrast to the caricature of double predestination seen in the positive-positive schema is the classic position of Reformed theology on predestination. In this view predestination is double in that it involves both election and reprobation but is not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather we view predestination in terms of a positive-negative relationship.
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives.

So, regarding REFORM theology...

1. if you define Double Predestination as the positive-positive point of view and assign it to Reformed theology, then that is false.
2. if you define Double Predestination as the positive-negative point of view and assign it to Reformed theology, then that is true.

My guess is you define Double Predestination as the positive-positive, in which case your view is wrong. If you define Double Predestination as the positive-negative, then you are correct and we have a semantics issue/communication issue.

Aside: This is why I like definitions
Aside: Short summation of Reform Doctrine. Everyone is going to hell unless God intervenes. God chooses to intervene for some ... the rest He does nothing. If this is what you mean by double predestination, I agree.

Maybe you trust John Piper more than the bible and more than John Calvin?

Cheap shot .... not worry of a reply.

I do NOT chastise God because I DO see Him as a just God.
It is YOU that does not see Him as a just God,,,
It is YOU that believes in unconditional election.

I think we both try to understand the incomprehensible God.

I DO believe that God ALLOWS EVIL.

Agreed

I do NOT believe that God predestined man to do evil...which is what calvinists believe.

Agreed if you mean God predestined man would do evil as opposed to causes man to do evil.
You don't believe in an all knowing God. He was surprised when man did evil, he LEARNED who would save themselves by looking into the future. You don't believe He is eternal for He looks into the future to learn and therefore is dependent upon time. You don't believe God is immutable. He changes as His knowledge changes as He learns from us and our decisions. You deny God total freedom; rather, he is subject to our decisions. In the same way you deny God's sovereignty over all things; rather, He advocated the throne to immoral men to determine the future. You define God as all wise, yet you force God to be controlled by the decisions of man. You believe God is righteous; yet your model of righteousness is guided by your idea of fairness based on man's ideals, yahda, yahda, yahda

Please read the above carefully.
My logic is concurrent with traditional and main-line Christianity.
It is the reformed that does not agree with traditional and main-line Christianity.

Smiles, I am always content to be among the remnant. (Aside: mainline Christianity ideals change with time. It doesn't take much of an historian to know that; therefore, your premise is invalidated.

As to Macarthur....
It's just one hour....And the answer is in the first 10 minutes....

Re: https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A189/is-god-responsible-for-evil
John MacArthur quotes:

1. Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13).
2. Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature. I agree with John Calvin
3. God's role with regard to evil is never as its author.

You won't give quotes, so I will.

 

[JLB]

Easily, because they were His Sheep God gave to Him.

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


Who were these men that were in the world that Jesus manifested His Father’s name to?





JLB

 

[Walpole]

The Sheep are the Elect the goats the non elect. Christ died for the Sheep Jn 10 and not the goats, that is the difference.

Jesus referred to Judas as a sheep twice. Do you believe Judas was saved?

If Calvinists really believed their own doctrines, Judas Iscariot would be their patron saint and poster boy.

 

[brightfame52]

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


Who were these men that were in the world that Jesus manifested His Father’s name to?





JLB

They were His Sheep, the Body of Christ! The Apostles are part of Christ Body the Church.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus referred to Judas as a sheep twice. Do you believe Judas was saved?

If Calvinists really believed their own doctrines, Judas Iscariot would be their patron saint and poster boy.

False judas was never said to be of Christ Sheep. Judas is the son of perdition Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was a son of the devil Jn 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

[JLB]

They were His Sheep, the Body of Christ! The Apostles are part of Christ Body the Church.

His Apostles are indeed a part of His Church, however not all the Church were His Apostles. He is specifically referring to His Apostles. His Apostles were in the world, and were given to Christ out of the world. They were given to Him for purpose, to be His Apostles. This is specific to the Twelve.

The “men you have given Me out of the world” refers specifically to the twelve Apostles, not all the body of Christ.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


Jesus manifested His Fathers name to His Apostles.


The point I am making is, you are taking a passage that is specific to the Apostles and trying to apply it to all the Church.


When we examine all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we can see the fullness of truth pertaining to this subject.


Are you willing to address these scriptures that pertain to eternal life?


His disciples heard the Gospel and believed and therefore obeyed it, (kept it), in which they followed Him and inherited eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


When we take all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we see that ultimately it requires enduring to the end, being faithful even unto death, hearing and obeying His voice, that manifests in following His commandments and teachings.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


”I know Him” is another way of saying I have eternal life.


The Lord gives us eternal life, which is knowing Him, being joined to Him, in which we are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


However, there is a condition to receiving His gift of eternal life.


It is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



The Lord calls us out of the world, out of darkness, into His marvelous light, through the Gospel.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

Hearing, (listening with the intent of obeying what is heard) that results in following Him, and enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


Becoming a slave to God and His righteousness in which we bear fruit to holiness.


But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Eternal life is ultimately given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



Hear the words of Jesus Christ, as to who will come forth in the resurrection of life; eternal life


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When we take into account all the verses and the condition given for obtaining eternal life, we see the truth.


Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.



A thorough read of Matthew 25:31-46 is a good place to start.




JLB

 

[JLB]

False judas was never said to be of Christ Sheep. Judas is the son of perdition Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was a son of the devil Jn 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

You have been deceived

Do you believe Peter was the devil?


Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Judas was a human being, opposing the cause of God.


That is what the word devil means.

Strongs 1228 - Diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas was called to reign with Christ and the other 11 Apostles, but became a traitor.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29


Judas had a choice to be faithful and continue as an apostle with the others but instead choose to become a guide for those who arrested Jesus, in exchange for money.


“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” Acts 1:16-17


He fell by transgression.


to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
Acts 1:25



JLB

 

[Randy]

You have one here who is setting Paul against Christ. I know Christ. I have read Paul's writings. They are cohesive to me. You do not enter the Kingdom of God by works. There are those who do good works yet do not have Christ. There are those who have Torah yet reject Christ. Neither works nor works of the law atone for sin and all have sinned and far short of the glory of God. You can not earn salvation. That would be wages. You believe God in this case Christ which you were purchased for God by His blood. That is the grace Paul speaks of. It was provided by God. Yes we are not free to sin but atonement was provided by God. (grace) A righteousness credited by faith.

Grace - His sins were forgiven not by works but by faith in Christ.
Luke 23
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ”
43Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise

I was steered to Christ by my Mother from my beginning. I state I have believed and loved the Lord as far back as my memory goes. I do not state I was prechosen by God. Jesus responded to my faith in Him.


Its salvation by the forgiveness of sin which is by grace.
Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 18:42
Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has healed you.”

Jesus to a Saul who didn't believe up until that point
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

 

[JLB]

To me it is nothing but blasphemy when we say all scripture is God-breathed. no other writer said that except paul – because they dared not have. It just isn’t God-breathed. Not all Scripture. If any other writer in Bible has said this please let me know, so I can read that scripture and increase my understanding.

Brother, I love you.

You are certainly entitled to your own perspective like everyone else. However, at this Forum, we have a Statement of Faith, which declares our position on the matter of scripture.


Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.


Please do not tear at the fabric of our community with such statements as ....

To me it is nothing but blasphemy when we say all scripture is God-breathed.

Please do not promote this idea here.


Just because God has chosen to reveal some unpleasant things in the Bible doesn’t mean they are not true.



Thank you.





JLB

 

[Walpole]

False judas was never said to be of Christ Sheep. Judas is the son of perdition Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was a son of the devil Jn 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, 'Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.'... 'Behold, I send you [the twelve] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.'" (Matthew 10:5, 16)


"And in the evening he cometh with the twelve...And Jesus saith unto them, 'All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'" (Mark 14:7, 27)


Once again, if the doctrines of Calvinism were true, you would be pointing to Judas Iscariot as the poster boy.

 

[Walpole]

Do you believe Peter was the devil?


Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Judas was a human being, opposing the cause of God.


That is what the word devil means.

Strongs 1228 - Diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas was called to reign with Christ and the other 11 Apostles, but became a traitor.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29


Judas had a choice to be faithful and continue as an apostle with the others but instead choose to become a guide for those who arrested Jesus, in exchange for money.


“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” Acts 1:16-17


He fell by transgression.


to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
Acts 1:25



JLB

Great post.

You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged.

 

[Walpole]

It looks like posts are now being deleted. I guess differing opinions are not permitted here either now?