Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[Rajesh Sahu]

Eternal life is given to as many as the Father gave the Son Jn 17:2 and those are His Sheep Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

One Believes because they were one of Christs Sheep whom He gives Eternal life.

Eternal life is given to as many as the Father gave the Son Jn 17:2 and those are His Sheep Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

One Believes because they were one of Christs Sheep whom He gives Eternal life.

Dear Bright, I see your heavy reliance on Ephesians 2: 8-9 which says
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
I have a question for you, or anyone else who would like to edify me on this subject /\
If indeed one is saved by Grace alone, how is it that the Savior of Mankind, our Lord Jesus, or his 12 handpicked apostles, failed to mention even once in their entire ministry that one is saved by Grace alone—something which the 13th the apostle taught so vehemently/ passionately, and is taught by thousands of Churches across the world daily?
Did Christ, or His twelve apostles, forget to mention the all-important salvation metric ----GRACE?

 

[brightfame52]

Correct Bright. what you quoted is right in my humble opinion. And these Sheep are those mentioned by Christ in Sheep and Goats parable : Matthew 25:31-46
And these Sheep were those Christians who practised loving compassion like the Good Samaritan. This was then the definition by Christ Himself of Sheep that would be saved on the last day.

All that is a gift of eternal life given exclusively to the Sheep !

 

[brightfame52]

Please explain to us how one becomes one of His sheep, before they believe?

Again, as I said before His disciples were called out of the world and believed the Gospel and became His sheep.

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6

They were of the world, before they responed to His call.

They werent His sheep before they believed.

The idea that they were His sheep first, then later they believed is not scriptural.





JLB

I already stated that. Please review my posts.

 

[brightfame52]

Dear Bright, I see your heavy reliance on Ephesians 2: 8-9 which says
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
I have a question for you, or anyone else who would like to edify me on this subject /\
If indeed one is saved by Grace alone, how is it that the Savior of Mankind, our Lord Jesus, or his 12 handpicked apostles, failed to mention even once in their entire ministry that one is saved by Grace alone—something which the 13th the apostle taught so vehemently/ passionately, and is taught by thousands of Churches across the world daily?
Did Christ, or His twelve apostles, forget to mention the all-important salvation metric ----GRACE?

If Ephesians 2:8-9 isn't suffice for you I can not help you. Eph 2:5

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If Ephesians 2:8-9 isn't suffice for you I can not help you. Eph 2:5

Why didn't Jesus or his twelve apostles teach saved by Grace? if He/ they did, share the verses please.

 

[Randy]

Dear Bright, I see your heavy reliance on Ephesians 2: 8-9 which says
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
I have a question for you, or anyone else who would like to edify me on this subject /\
If indeed one is saved by Grace alone, how is it that the Savior of Mankind, our Lord Jesus, or his 12 handpicked apostles, failed to mention even once in their entire ministry that one is saved by Grace alone—something which the 13th the apostle taught so vehemently/ passionately, and is taught by thousands of Churches across the world daily?
Did Christ, or His twelve apostles, forget to mention the all-important salvation metric ----GRACE?

The forgiveness of sins is by grace.
Salvation by what?
Luke 1
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,

Acts 15
The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

I have already addressed the "cost" of following Christ, which was from Christ's enemies not God. God didn't kick people out of synagogues or persecute those who believed in Jesus.

Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you? If so what "work" did you do to receive the "gift" of God?

Cost
Pauls credentials
I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

 

[JLB]

I already stated that. Please review my posts.

If His disciples were given to Him “out of the world” how can they have already been His sheep?

Answer: Jesus came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This plainly means His sheep who become lost, need salvation.

Lost = sinner in need of repentance to be saved. Someone who is lost went back into the world and became a sinner.
See Luke 15:4-7


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


His disciples heard the Gospel and believed and therefore obeyed it, (kept it), in which they followed Him and inherited eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


When we take all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we see that ultimately it requires enduring to the end, being faithful even unto death, hearing and obeying His voice, that manifests in following His commandments and teachings.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


”I know Him” is another way of saying I have eternal life.


The Lord gives us eternal life, which is knowing Him, being joined to Him, in which we are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


However, there is a condition to receiving His gift of eternal life.


It is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



The Lord calls us out of the world, out of darkness, into His marvelous light, through the Gospel.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What do we see is necessary then for your eternal salvation:

Obeying Him.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

Hearing, (listening with the intent of obeying what is heard) that results in following Him, and enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


Becoming a slave to God and His righteousness in which we bear fruit to holiness.


But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Eternal life is ultimately given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



Hear the words of Jesus Christ, as to who will come forth in the resurrection of life; eternal life


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When we take into account all the verses and the condition given for obtaining eternal life, we see the truth.


Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.



A thorough read of Matthew 25:31-46 is a good place to start.




JLB

 

[JLB]

“I have been saved” means that my salvation began in the past but continues into the present.
Let me illustrate this by pointing to my own life experience. My salvation was earned in the past when Christ died for me on the cross. I received this salvation by faith when I went forward at a Billy Graham crusade in 1963. That also happened in the past. At that time, as a six-year-old boy, I had assurance that I would be saved in the future. But that is not the whole story. For the past fifty-five years, God has been graciously allowing me to experience more of his salvation as he has been bringing me into greater wholeness. Thus, I am able to say with gratitude that I was saved. I will be saved. I am saved. And I have been saved. You can say the same things about yourself if you are in Christ.

I agree.


Amen.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Paul like the other apostles "rebuked" wickedness and promoted "righteousness".
"Faith expressing itself through love"

 

[Fastfredy0]

Why didn't Jesus or his twelve apostles teach saved by Grace? if He/ they did, share the verses please.

1. Romans 4:16a Therefore, [inheriting] the promise depends entirely on faith [that is, confident trust in the unseen God], in order that it may be given as an act of grace… If God were to permit the intrusion of human works into the acquisition of salvation to any degree, salvation could not be by grace alone.
2. 2 Timothy 1:9 for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this], but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],
3. Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior Faith is a work of righteousness, thus its source cannot be man.
4. Romans 9:31-32 whereas Israel, [though always] pursuing the law of righteousness, did not succeed in fulfilling the law. 32 And why not? Because it was not by faith [that they pursued it], but as though it were by works [relying on the merit of their works instead of their faith]. They stumbled over the stumbling Stone [Jesus Christ]. Grace alone
5. Works are not demanded, whereby the creature might ascribe anything to himself; a condition, whereby mercy is owned, and the creature emptied; flesh silenced in the dust, and God set upon his throne of grace and authority; the creature brought to the lowest debasement, and Divine glory raised to the highest pitch.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

1. Romans 4:16a Therefore, [inheriting] the promise depends entirely on faith [that is, confident trust in the unseen God], in order that it may be given as an act of grace… If God were to permit the intrusion of human works into the acquisition of salvation to any degree, salvation could not be by grace alone.
2. 2 Timothy 1:9 for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this], but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],
3. Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior Faith is a work of righteousness, thus its source cannot be man.
4. Romans 9:31-32 whereas Israel, [though always] pursuing the law of righteousness, did not succeed in fulfilling the law. 32 And why not? Because it was not by faith [that they pursued it], but as though it were by works [relying on the merit of their works instead of their faith]. They stumbled over the stumbling Stone [Jesus Christ]. Grace alone
5. Works are not demanded, whereby the creature might ascribe anything to himself; a condition, whereby mercy is owned, and the creature emptied; flesh silenced in the dust, and God set upon his throne of grace and authority; the creature brought to the lowest debasement, and Divine glory raised to the highest pitch.

Fredy the question is why was Jesus NOT Teaching Salvation by Grace alone? Not even once does the Savior of mankind mention Grace. If it were that important as paul repeatedly say Why didn't Jesus teach that to the people He addressed? He is the author of human salvation. Nobody else. Why did he forget? ( he came two times --once as baby Jesus, and the second time after His resurrection--- consequently He had two solid opportunities to share "saved by Grace alone" -- But He Didn't. WHY?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fredy the question is why was Jesus NOT Teaching Salvation by Grace alone? Not even once does the Savior of mankind mention Grace. If it were that important as paul repeatedly say Why didn't Jesus teach that to the people He addressed? He is the author of human salvation. Nobody else. Why did he forget? ( he came two times --once as baby Jesus, and the second time after His resurrection--- consequently He had two solid opportunities to share "saved by Grace alone" -- But He Didn't. WHY?

Well, Jesus = God. Scripture is inspired by God (Jesus). Paul was taught by Jesus. Thus, anything scriptural from Paul is from Jesus. Thus, Jesus did teach Salvation by grace alone using Paul as an intermediary. Why Christ didn't teach "X" or "Y" at any point of time is outside my pay grade ... Deut. 29:29
The main point is the Christ did teach "grace alone"... timing is a minor issue that is in God's hand. Deut. 29:29

 

[GodsGrace]

hmmm, in the past you refused to define "Free Will" (re: Hospes interaction). There seems little reason to proceed as this is the basis of the thread you propose.

First of all I NEVER refuse to define anything someone asks me to define.

Second, I went on for post after post with Hospes regarding how I understand free will.
It is Hospes that does not care to understand how free will has ALWAYS been defined.
You don't have to participate in any thread you don't like.

I don't know why as 'prevenient grace' is a term your side invented to try to explain away man's inability to respond to God's offer of salvation in lieu of man's depravity.

Prevenient grace is the true meaning of how God distributes His grace to the non-believer.
I don't care much for terms invented by MAN.
Please don't bring up the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union - these were discussed in the early days of Christianity to make official
what the church believes to be true after much debate.

Agreed, 'prevenient grace' is not found in scripture. I assume you mean the "words" and not the "concept". The explanation of how man overcomes his depravity to respond to God is vital to your case and therefore would have to be examined.

You assumed correctly.

I really don't think we have an big enough audience to make worth while an exchange of ideas. Also, though you are a worthy opponent, you often make false claims about what Calvinism teaches ... i.e. double predestination, God creates evil, ideas of Calvinism started in 1500s ....

We have a very big audience --- but I'm also speaking to you.
I truly believe that if you studied Calvinism enough...it would begin to make no sense to you --- because it doesn't.

I don't make false claims FF. I know what Calvinism is. HOW they teach it at your church, I wouldn't know.
I'm not claiming to know what YOU personally believe or what your church teaches.
I claim to be stating what CALVINISM teaches...you know, what John Calvin believed to be true.
It might be YOU that does not agree with John Calvin.

Let's go down the list you made:

1. Calvinism does not teach double predestination. (your claim).
John Calvin taught that some men are created for salvation and some are created for damnation.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

If the above does not signify double predestination to you...could you please explain exactly what it DOES mean to you??


2. God creates Evil

If God has predertermined everything...
If God has created everything...
then He has also created evil.
However, by calvinist theory....persons are still responsible for their evil
even though God ordained and predestined the evil the commit !!
There is a lot of MYSTERY in the calvinist belief system. That is because it makes no sense.....

Here's John Piper...I do believe he's a calvinist....
and he does agree with John Calvin BTW.

Sample below:

Again, this is not accurate. I am not a church historian ... but Calvinism can be traced back to Augustine ... (Aside: it is not possible to trace every doctrine propagation through time from Christ to you and I. They debated the concept of the Trinity of 100s of years (I believe) ... same for hypostatic union.

Proof
"Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him [Augustine] one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
..."Augustine's understanding of the consequences of original sin and the necessity of redeeming grace was developed in the struggle against Pelagius and his Pelagian" .... see, Calvinist (Calvin, Augustine, whoever still fighting the same fight. With Augustine it was pelagianism .... today it is the semi-pelagians

Last time I gave a citation showing Calvinist's (R.C. Sproul) rejected Double Predestination you ignored it and continue to errantly propagate the idea that REFORM doctrine supports Double Predestination.

Oh really. You want to discuss Augustine?
First of all, he's not an early church father...He was born in about 400 AD
He is the ONLY church father that brought forth the idea of predestination..
it was NEVER even CONSIDERED before him.

Do you know his concept of Original Sin?

And because RC Sproul rejects double predestination is meaningless.....
If God elects some for salvation --
the others are going to hell.
THAT is double predestination.

As I've stated...calvinism makes no sense.
It sounds like double-speak.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, Jesus = God. Scripture is inspired by God (Jesus). Paul was taught by Jesus. Thus, anything scriptural from Paul is from Jesus. Thus, Jesus did teach Salvation by grace alone using Paul as an intermediary. Why Christ didn't teach "X" or "Y" at any point of time is outside my pay grade ... Deut. 29:29
The main point is the Christ did teach "grace alone"... timing is a minor issue that is in God's hand. Deut. 29:29

Jesus did not teach grace alone.
This is a modern invention for those that want to be saved and still sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

I still dont see anything in Jn 3:16about a offer.

Of course not.
You've been brainwashed not to.

Here's something YOUR God does to humans....
I hope your church has taught you this at some point in their preaching....


There are two species of calling, for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike
EVEN THOSE FOR WHOM HE DESIGNS THE CALL TO BE A SAVOR OF DEATH and the ground for A SEVERER CONDEMNATION.
...Sometimes [God] communicates [an internal illumination] also to those whom He enlightens only for a short time, and whom afterwards, IN JUST PUNISHMENT
FOR THEIR INGRATITUDE, HE ABANDONS AND SMITES WITH GREATER BLINDNESS.

J. Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


It's really a wonderful God you are serving...
isn't it?

And this God does for HIS GLORY....
IOW,,,He tortures persons so HE could be glorified.
Sounds like a wonderful God to be serving.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Jesus did not teach grace alone.
This is a modern invention for those that want to be saved and still sin.

Strongly agree . Cannot agree more. What you wrote is the very crux of what's going on today in Christian world. Badly needs to re interpret the NT message and covenant!

 

[Fastfredy0]

If the above does not signify double predestination to you...could you please explain exactly what it DOES mean to you??

I explained it in an article by R C Sproul.

Double” Predestination​

by R.C. Sproul
“A horrible decree… .” “Most ruthless statement… .” “A terrible theological theory… .” “An illegitimate inference of logic… .” These and other similar epithets have been used frequently to articulate displeasure and revulsion at the Reformed doctrine of double predestination. Particularly abhorrent to many is the notion that God would predestinate (in any sense) the doom of the reprobate.
Despite fervent reliable, you insist on falsely attributing double predestination to Calvinism. I understand people getting it wrong, I don't understand why,when given proof, they don't correct themselves or show contrary facts. SHOW ME A PROMINENT REFORM PERSON THAT SUPPORTS DOUBLE PREDISTINATION. Just like when challenged to show proof Macarthur believes God creates evil, you won't do it except to say it's somewhere in some long sermon.

It's really a wonderful God you are serving...
isn't it?

Agreed.

He tortures persons so HE could be glorified.
Sounds like a wonderful God to be serving.

you should not chastise God. You know very well that God allows evil and righteously punishes those He tortures for ever. HE HAS THE POWER TO SAVE EVERYONE...I HOPE YOU BELIEVE THAT, yet you chastise Him for not doing so...i don't think you mean too, it's the consequence of your logic.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jesus did not teach grace alone.
This is a modern invention for those that want to be saved and still sin.

Hmmm, so you believe in WORKS Salvation? ... hopefully just a lack of definition of what GRACE ALONE means. Perhaps you should define it.

 

[brightfame52]

If His disciples were given to Him “out of the world” how can they have already been His sheep?

Answer: Jesus came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This plainly means His sheep who become lost, need salvation.

Lost = sinner in need of repentance to be saved. Someone who is lost went back into the world and became a sinner.
See Luke 15:4-7


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6


His disciples heard the Gospel and believed and therefore obeyed it, (kept it), in which they followed Him and inherited eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


When we take all the scriptures that pertain to eternal life, we see that ultimately it requires enduring to the end, being faithful even unto death, hearing and obeying His voice, that manifests in following His commandments and teachings.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


”I know Him” is another way of saying I have eternal life.


The Lord gives us eternal life, which is knowing Him, being joined to Him, in which we are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


However, there is a condition to receiving His gift of eternal life.


It is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



The Lord calls us out of the world, out of darkness, into His marvelous light, through the Gospel.



JLB

Easily, because they were His Sheep God gave to Him.